Breeder dilemma, please advise

[Alyssa]

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Hi everyone,
I bred a litter 5 years ago because I wanted to carry on the line of an exceptional dog and keep a bitch. I made detailed contracts and interviewed applicants and chose owners carefully etc. One contract stipulation was that if the owner could no longer care for the dog, they should be returned to me. 18 months ago, one dog was found on the road (microchip not changed so they called me) so I had him back. After a lot of training he's super.

One of my other dogs went to a family where they got divorced, she had a baby with the new partner and was frequently emailing me with 'issues' wanting advice, which I gave. One time I got a call because the dog had got lost (chip not changed again) so I reunited them. The 'issues' emails continued, then a few days ago she told me she couldn't cope and thought it would be best if I took him to live with his brother and sister. She was very upset so I said, OK, I'll take him for 2 weeks, retrain him, we can see how we get on.

I got the dog back a couple of days ago. Very overweight. An athletic breed (Springer Spaniel) in the prime of his life that can't even jump in the boot of the car. Fine with my other dogs, but growled very seriously when I tried to put him in the crate (she'd told me he was crate trained). No recall. She said she'd stopped walking him because he runs off. I took him to the vets yesterday where I discovered he had a bad anal gland infection. He is not neutered.

After discovering the extent of his issues, I am not keen to return him to this owner. I have asked her to think carefully about what's in the best interests of the dog - that he MUST have exercise each day, that she must run with him on the lead for many miles if she feels she can't let him off etc. She is very upset, thinking she won't get him back and is saying, yes she will do this running with him, and that her baby goes into nursery soon etc (she has 4 other kids - a total of 5 children!) so she will be able to care for him completely differently. I am sceptical. Chip has now unfortunately been changed to her name.

I believe I can crate train and recall train him. (I did so with his brother, who was returned to me aged 3.5). I think that as soon as he's over the infection I should get him neutered. Whether I keep him myself or rehome him, I'm worried about giving him back to this lady. What do you all think?

I'm now being bombarded by messages from her, asking what is her dog's weight etc (she should know!) and that I'd promised to return him etc etc. How do I handle this?

Many thanks.

 

[Hemlock]

I think you would be wise to contact Trevor Cooper, who specialises in dog law and its fallout. Good luck.

 

[Alyssa]

I think you would be wise to contact Trevor Cooper, who specialises in dog law and its fallout. Good luck.

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. I've been in touch with Trevor before; I know there will be legal issues but my question is more around the ethical issues etc. would love to hear people's thoughts on this please.

 

[JudyN]

Ethically, if it's possible to do so legally, I would keep the dog. This person does not sound reliable (it would take a lot of effort to give the dog what he needs if she has 5 young children, and she wasn't doing this before the most recent baby came along). The dog has shown signs of aggression, which is a huge red flag when there's young children in the house, and if he's unneutered and she does ever let him off lead, chances are that sooner or later there will be another litter of pups. I also suspect that managing a dog's weight with 5 children in the house could be tricky - they will be only too keen to share their leftovers/snacks, and won't be great at avoiding leaving snacks unattended.

Unless you can come up with some sort of agreement that you will give the owner a list of 'must dos', and will visit every so often to check on progress.

And just a thought - you may be able to teach him with recall to you while he's with you, but that might not translate into recalling to her - so that is something you would have to teach her how to train...

 

[Feverfew]

First off, congratulations for taking responsibility for the dogs you breed and stepping up when things don't work out. If only more breeders were like this, instead of just looking at the bottom line. That said, I am a bit surprised that neutering him was not part of the contract.

It's almost impossible to decide the ethics in a situation like this, because both parties are very emotionally committed to the dog. I think everyone would want what is in the best interests of the dog, and it's tempting to say you should just get the dog back from the owner, by hook or by crook. However, it may not necessarily be in the dog's best interests to return to you.

I think a first step, for me, would be maybe to step back from your (perfectly legitimate and understandable) initial shock and sadness at the condition of the dog when you saw him again, and then to think about the recommendations you have made to the owner. His health problem (particularly the anal gland infection) are not disputable, but some of the things you say are maybe more up for discussion.

For example, you think that she needs to run with him for many miles if she can't let him off lead, but that's your opinion. Not every dog (of whatever breed) needs that amount of exercise, and I have clients with on-lead-only dogs who never run, yet are perfectly fit. Indeed, one of my own dogs, who is fine off lead, very rarely runs either and I don't do anything to encourage him to do so. He's 8, perfectly fit, slim and healthy.

It's a similar case with the crate. You say you 'tried to put him in the crate and he growled'. Growling is fine in my book as a means of communication, but maybe not in yours. If it were me, I'd be asking myself, 'what is it about this crate that's not ok for you?', whereas you - again, perfectly legitimately - are in a space of 'I want you to do what I ask'.

Again you say she 'should know' the dog's weight, but how many companion animal owners know the precise weight of their dogs? I have a rough idea of what my two weigh, but that's by eye and feel.

It's a bit of a trap, I think, to believe there is only one way of living with a dog, and clearly, you are particularly invested in your beliefs about the breed, and the line you have bred. Yet I meet dogs of all breeds that do not fit the breed stereotype - lazy, aloof huskies; shy staffies; slightly dozy collies. Sometimes our beliefs can get in the way of what is in front of us.

So, in sum, I don't think it is a clear-cut case of 'breeder - right; owner - wrong', though clearly she's wrong about some things, such as in providing timely veterinary care. Maybe you could recommend an independent dog walker or trainer who could work with the owner to find a way for her to look after this dog without her feeling overwhelmed and inadequate, or the dog being neglected? I think that you taking him on for 2 weeks and doing what you think needs doing will be counterproductive: the owner will think dogs can just be 'fixed' in a couple of weeks, and she won't have learned anything practical that she needs to be doing for the dog.

I think it's also important that you meet with the new partner and work out where they are with the dog. I agree that five children is a lot, but we don't know how much support and help the owner gets from family, partner etc, so it may be that five is ok for her.

Just my pennyworth, and I hope it's helpful. As I said at the start, I think it is wholly commendable that you are so invested in the dogs you breed, and I really admire your dedication.

 

[Alyssa]

Hi Judy and Feverfew, thanks so much for taking the time to reply, a lot of good points for me to consider.
I could give the owner a list of 'must dos' but she'll say 'yes' and then not actually do them and would probably block me visiting to check on the dog.
And yes, absolutely, whilst I may be able to get him perfectly trained with me, he has negative patterns of his life with her, which will be difficult to shift. I think she's deluded herself she'll do everything necessary but over time this will lapse and he'll be in a sorry state again. As I say, I've had messages from her over the years, she keeps changing her mind.
Feverfew - yes fair enough comments. Should've insisted on neutering in contract. I've owned springers for 40 years so I do believe it's a breed that needs lots of exercise. Maybe not running miles but at least get out of the house a good portion of time every day. A tired dog is easier to train and better behaved. He has behavioural issues which I'm sure were exacerbated by him getting NO exercise. I think he's had a bad experience of a crate. I can undo that in my house, he'll learn it's a safe place where he gets fed etc. But more worrying is the fact that it's a dog who thinks HE'S in control - returning to a house with a baby. I honestly very very narrowly avoided getting bitten.
I do know the exact weight of all my dogs, but more relevant is his body condition score of 8, and inability as a prime-of-life springer to jump in a car boot!
The idea that he can be fixed in a couple of weeks and she won't have learned anything = very true! I think he'll need longer. She's wedded to the idea she wants him back on X date, rather than prioritising the dog's needs.
I'm hoping that given a bit of time without him she might reflect on things more rationally and realise that her home isn't necessarily the best option for him. But she's gone into defensive mode now so it may not happen.
I hate being in this position. This is really hard.

 

[Feverfew]

Hi Judy and Feverfew, thanks so much for taking the time to reply, a lot of good points for me to consider.
I could give the owner a list of 'must dos' but she'll say 'yes' and then not actually do them and would probably block me visiting to check on the dog.
And yes, absolutely, whilst I may be able to get him perfectly trained with me, he has negative patterns of his life with her, which will be difficult to shift. I think she's deluded herself she'll do everything necessary but over time this will lapse and he'll be in a sorry state again. As I say, I've had messages from her over the years, she keeps changing her mind.
Feverfew - yes fair enough comments. Should've insisted on neutering in contract. I've owned springers for 40 years so I do believe it's a breed that needs lots of exercise. Maybe not running miles but at least get out of the house a good portion of time every day. A tired dog is easier to train and better behaved. He has behavioural issues which I'm sure were exacerbated by him getting NO exercise. I think he's had a bad experience of a crate. I can undo that in my house, he'll learn it's a safe place where he gets fed etc. But more worrying is the fact that it's a dog who thinks HE'S in control - returning to a house with a baby. I honestly very very narrowly avoided getting bitten.
I do know the exact weight of all my dogs, but more relevant is his body condition score of 8, and inability as a prime-of-life springer to jump in a car boot!
The idea that he can be fixed in a couple of weeks and she won't have learned anything = very true! I think he'll need longer. She's wedded to the idea she wants him back on X date, rather than prioritising the dog's needs.
I'm hoping that given a bit of time without him she might reflect on things more rationally and realise that her home isn't necessarily the best option for him. But she's gone into defensive mode now so it may not happen.
I hate being in this position. This is really hard.

It is a horrible position to be in, for sure. I do feel for you, as you are trying so hard to do the right thing by this dog.

I was wondering today if there's a third option of him going to a reputable rescue? I say this, because some of her determination to keep him may be based on the antipathy that has grown up between you. As you say, she is in defensive mode and perhaps determined to prove you wrong. This makes it difficult to negotiate with her, but if there were a third, neutral person who would be interested in taking the dog on (as a bit of a project), that could work.

I agree that if he has had very little or no exercise, this will have led to a deterioration in his emotional welfare, and that may come out as irritation and sadness, as well as his physical health problems. I don't doubt that you could get cooperation from this dog through training, although I take issue with the idea that a tired dog is 'easier to train'. Dogs do not function when they are tired any better than we do, and a tired dog needs to sleep, relax and recover, not have more demands placed on him.

In terms of the problem with the crate, you are probably right that he has had a bad experience of crates, but a good experience of crates with you is unlikely to change his feelings about crates per se. Dogs are notoriously good at discriminating rather than generalising (just think of scentwork!), so her use of a crate at her house will be a completely different experience for him of a crate at yours.

Just one final thought about jumping in the car: there are lots of reasons why a dog would be reluctant to jump in a car, at any age and any weight, and I think it's slightly dangerous to attribute it only to fitness. He may have started with arthritis. He may have slipped and fallen while jumping in a car and is now nervous about jumping. He may not like the look or smell of your car. There are a whole host of reasons I would consider before attributing it to poor fitness or weight.

I learned this from a very beautiful young Australian Shepherd bitch who was trained in agility, but the one thing she would not do was jump into the car boot, despite her acrobatics in the ring. Nothing - not food, her favourite toy, or shaping - would persuade her to jump in. It occurred to me to get down to her level and see what the car boot looked like from her perspective. I noticed that it was very dark, and I could not see the floor of the boot.

Working on a hunch, I invited her to jump into the back of my Renault Kangoo, which is much lower than her owner's car, with the floor clearly visible. It has a strip of rough sticky tape on the ledge, which I'd put on for my own dogs, so their nails don't slip on the surface of the ledge as they get in. My car probably smelled quite inviting but not overpowering, because my dog had been in there earlier in the week. Suffice to say, she carefully put her paws on the ledge, had a little look and a sniff, and then popped in, had a good sniff round, and popped out again. I think she needed to see what she was jumping into, because she had honed her proprioception doing agility to such an extent, she was super-sensitive about where her feet were.

Her owner bought a ramp (no issue for an agility dog there!) and she happily ran up and down the ramp to get in and out of the car, and as far as I know, is still doing so!

Anyway, I have gone right off topic! I wish you the very best of luck in finding a good solution for this dog, and for everyone involved.