Breeding

[Gary Coulburn]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

We are looking to breed are young bitch in a year or two .As she is show bred and we are not into the showing world could mating her with a racing bred dog produce good racers.She is quite a big bitch so we are looking hopefully for a small dog.What are peoples opinion on this?Has anyone produced good racers by breeding a show dog with a racer?.

 

[Mark Roberts]

HI Gary,

The 1st question has to be "what do you mean by you want to breed good racers" if you want to bred dogs that will race then yes the bitch will produce pups that will/could race, but if you mean by good racers dogs caperble of winning opens/Champs on a regular basis then IMO you would be better off waiting and breeding from your new pup at a later date.

although you have a chance of breeding fast dogs from your show bred to a race bred dog your chances would be greatly increased if you waited and bred of the race bred bitch to a race bred dog.

hope that helps

 

[June Jonigk]

Hi Gary

In my opinion I think you should go ahead. Show bred bitches have produced Champion racers in the past - so why not yours? Also it introduces new blood lines into racing, which are very much needed. It's a lottery anyway, as you can mate the top racing dogs in the country, and they don't necessarily produce pups with speed. As a rule I think speed produces speed, but there's always the exception - and your bitch could be it!

The size thing would be something to watch, and your idea of going to a small dog is a good one. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Strike Whippets]

Theres nothing wrong with bringing in some new blood and who knows after a generation or so you may well have something that will prove it can be done :thumbsup: .......Theres a good bitch on the circuit now that is show/coursing bred and even though shes only lightly raced shes definatly proved a point

Choose a small line of racers that you like and see what happens :luck:

 

[Vicky]

I'd do what Hannah's said, i'm not well up on ped racers but it can't do any harm to bring a bit of fresh blood in & like Hannah says you've got to look 5/10yr down the line you could have something really special!

 

[Strike Whippets]

There are some dogs on the open circuit (and doing really, really well) that are only 3 generations away from being complete show breds .......but it can happen sooner .....look at WCRCh Magic Trick :thumbsup:

 

[Gary Coulburn]

Thanks for all your input & taking the time to reply

 

[BeeJay]

As you aren't thinking of breeding from your show bred bitch now but waiting for a year or two + you are wanting to breed for racing personally I'd wait a bit longer and breed from your racing bred bitch.

It all depends on how much room you have for more dogs ie a litter from both and if you get really into racing another down the line a few years on with your older dogs still being at home. Also how much you want to have pups from your show bred bitch.

People have mentioned getting new blood into racing lines. Well that's only going to happen if someone keeps the line from a show bred bitch going. If for instance you breed from both statistically you are more likely to get successful pups for racing from the racing bred mated to another racing bred then even yourselves are more likely to breed from those pups rather than a less sucessful show x racing bred. So the new blood is lost.

 

[Gary Coulburn]

I think your right BJ,i havent made my mind up for definate but i think i will wait.When did show bred and racing bred dogs become so differant though?At one point in the past were they the same.Have show dogs ever been champions at both showing and racing?

 

[Judy]

No Gary, there has never been a racing & show champion. The racing bred ones are, as a rule, a lot faster than the show bred ones but rarely do well in the ring and vice versa. The original dogs that were shown at the end of the 19th century were taken off the track but since then they have changed considerably looking at the photographs. It has often been commented that the pedigree race bred whippets look like the "old fashioned" type of whippet.

A lot of people do start racing with show breds and some do breed from them but it usually seems to take at least 3 generations of breeding to race breds to get a "flyer." though it has been done with less, but so rarely that it only proves the rule. You can get a fairly decent dog after a couple of generations though. Bringing in new blood is a good thing but as Beejay says, unless a new line shows results pretty quickly, very few people other than the original breeder are going to use it so it falls to them to keep up the line untill it does show results and usually by then it has been somewhat diluted by the racing lines.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do Gary and happy whippeting :thumbsup:

 

[IanGerman]

I agree mainly with what Judy and BJ have said but I throw my own experiences into the mix just as more info for you.

I had a show bred bitch (Belle) - niece to a Crufts winner, Nutshell of Nevedith - who once she got out of puppy class and into junior stopped being picked out as she was a bit "elbowy" I went racing and although she was as game as a pebble she was handicapped by her showing antecedants - she stood about the same size as a 20lb racer but weighed in at 25lbs due to the heaviness of bone that most show dogs have. I mated her with a lightweight racing dog - Powerful Paddy - and was lucky enough to keep the one who turned out to be best of the litter (in fact only 4 of 8 raced and they all did quite well) Her daughter Hatt Outta Belle (18lb) missed out in Champs finals but finally collected her VC at 6 years. She was the only one of Belle's litter to have a litter herself - mated to Judy's Time Finder she produced 2 bitches - the speedy Arathusa (half-coat) and my own Lisa who proved not to like racing much until last year at the grand age of six. Arathusa will not be mated but Lisa had a litter last year, two of which will go racing next season.

So it CAN be done, but as others have pointed out already showlines do tend to get diluted after a couple of generations - Lisa's puppy's showlines are now VERY diluted indeed! One 1/8th show, 7/8th's race I believe !!!

 

[John E Greenwood]

As with all livestock, Gary, there are no rules, if there were, it would be easy.

There are a lot of pros and cons, and it's up to you, in your unique position to weigh up what they are for you and your dog......and your home and family.

So.....your bitch is a "show bitch"...what attributes does she have which will contribute to her pups making racing dogs which you will be pleased with?....In my case, Piper, although not strictly "show bred", is not "racing bred" either....She has great heart, determination and intelligence, she was VERY easy to train and trial in. However she was not fast enough....If she had no positives as a racing dog, I would have bought another, and started again...BUT, having watched dogs race, and course at open and national level, I was convinced that if Piper had a bit more speed, I would have a winner....I have seen many "open class" dogs who have plenty of speed, but not the balls or intelligence to use it...maybe that is where a "show bred " dog can contribute something to the gene pool...Speed must be the most easily tracable and well documented characteristic in the whippet population, and so finding a dog which in theory will add speed is not rocket science.

The pluses of breeding from your bitch are that you will, with time and patience see her progeny win; and so defy the detractors....very satisfying, if you love her as much as I love Piper....The minuses are, finding good homes for your first litter or two, and having the patience to wait until you breed a winner...

The best of luck.....whatever you decide to do.....see you around.

 

[kris]

well i dont know much about breeding racing dogs but ive bred show dogs for 30 odd years.i wouldnt mate a big bitch to a small dog.all you are going to get are big pups an small pups.breed her to a normal standard sized dog an you have a better chance of getting some normal standard sized pups as well as some who will take after mum and be big.breeding dogs isnt like mixing drinks,add a big one to a little one an youll get middle sized ones!it doesnt work like that!

 

[Mark Roberts]

Good point Kris, and people often forget to look back through the parentage to see what size ect the grandparents ect were, as it all ad to the gene pool and what they might produce.

 

[Strike Whippets]

Lisa's puppy's showlines are now VERY diluted indeed! One 1/8th show, 7/8th's race I believe !!!

It's still in there though :thumbsup: .....Thus = a different gene or 2 (or a couple of hundred thousand :blink: )......still helps to widen the racers gene pool

 

[Gary Coulburn]

Thanks John and everyone,i didnt know there was so much to think about.Ive learnt loads from the comments.You must be pleased John from the pups that Piper had so did it take you long to find a sire for her.What did you see in the sire that you found ideal,was it speed or was it build?

 

[sparky]

i would like to know the answer to that aswell. sparky

 

[John E Greenwood]

Becuse Piper was a maiden bitch, and is pretty dominant (watch her round the lure (w00t) )...I wanted a dog near by, geographically, so that I could travel 2 or three days in a row, if there were any problems....as it turned out, they mated 2nd and 3rd days...she tried to eat him, the first day ....so that was one consideration.

I wanted a dog from a deep, successful line, not a one off "excellent individual"..depth of breeding should improve the chances of getting the genes you want...Sunshine has 5 or 6 full brothers and sisters who are racing champs, and many of them, in turn have sired racing champs...No one else has used Sunshine because he is too big for many people, but I wanted to course and work my dogs as well as race them, I don't want little light dogs (personal preference)..Sunshine has won 4 champs and more than 30 open races and so has a proven record for speed, the main thing I was looking for..He is a powerfull, well buit dog, which I like, his ears are good and he has 2 balls, not an extreme "racing type"....And, very importantly he has a good temperament....I like my dogs to walk in the trap, not all the wriggling and fighting as you try to put them in, etc..and I've NEVER seen one from his line jib.....I discounted some other well known sires, which have bred good racing and/or coursing dogs, because I have seen some dogs of their breeding jib.

 

[Scott Frodsham]

Becuse Piper was a maiden bitch, and is pretty dominant (watch her round the lure (w00t) )...I wanted a dog near by, geographically, so that I could travel 2 or three days in a row, if there were any problems....as it turned out, they mated 2nd and 3rd days...she tried to eat him, the first day ....so that was one consideration.

I wanted a dog from a deep, successful line, not a one off "excellent individual"..depth of breeding should improve the chances of getting the genes you want...Sunshine has 5 or 6 full brothers and sisters who are racing champs, and many of them, in turn have sired racing champs...No one else has used Sunshine because he is too big for many people, but I wanted to course and work my dogs as well as race them, I don't want little light dogs (personal preference)..Sunshine has won 4 champs and more than 30 open races and so has a proven record for speed, the main thing I was looking for..He is a powerfull, well buit dog, which I like, his ears are good and he has 2 balls, not an extreme "racing type"....And, very importantly he has a good temperament....I like my dogs to walk in the trap, not all the wriggling and fighting as you try to put them in, etc..and I've NEVER seen one from his line jib.....I discounted some other well known sires, which have bred good racing and/or coursing dogs, because I have seen some dogs of their breeding jib.

Exsqueeze my ignorance....jib ?

 

[John E Greenwood]

jib.......refuse the task in front of them, give up....for instance come out of the trap and run straight back to their owner, or not come out of the traps.

Or EVEN WORSE......pull up on a hare.