Canine Herpes Virus

[jayp]

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Hey folks, Have been to a very good talk today b Keith Shea of "Fit and Fertile" fame. The Canine Herpes virus was discussed and was thought to be the cause of puppy absorption, abortion and neonatal deaths in pups under 3 weeks of age.

My question is do any of you vaccinate against this possibility and is this a widespread problem as although it has been discussed in the dog papers etc i have not heard that this is a "must do" vaccination

For all the breeders abroad what is the protocol where you are?

Thanks Jan

 

[dessie]

Personally, I don't think it is such a problem that it is hyped up to be. I attended a seminar by one of the top fertility specialist Vets in the country and she hardly dwelt on it as being a big problem. I know a lot of Cocker Spaniel breeders are now having their bitches vaccinated 'as a precaution' but as a precaution against what? If you have never had a problem (and losing the odd puppy is hardly earth shattering, as sad as it is at the time) why create one in your own mind. From what this specialist was saying, you would know if you really did have CHV. So, in conclusion, no I wouldn't have my bitches vaccinated unless I had conclusive proof my dogs were affected.

 

[jayp]

Personally, I don't think it is such a problem that it is hyped up to be.  I attended a seminar by one of the top fertility specialist Vets in the country and she hardly dwelt on it as being a big problem.  I know a lot of Cocker Spaniel breeders are now having their bitches vaccinated 'as a precaution' but as a precaution against what?  If you have never had a problem (and losing the odd puppy is hardly earth shattering, as sad as it is at the time) why create one in your own mind.  From what this specialist was saying, you would know if you really did have CHV.  So, in conclusion, no I wouldn't have my bitches vaccinated unless I had conclusive proof my dogs were affected.

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Thats interesting as it was said that of 250 bitches tested 80% of them carry the virus but as in humans it only activates in times of stress such as reproduction, and if the stud dog is also a carrier then there is a good chance the pups will be affected. There is no point testing unless virus is active as it dosnt show when dormant the only way to find out is to pm the dead pups. Like you i have not heard of it being a problem but just wondered if others had. Jan

 

[beaker]

i've not come accross it yet "touch wood"

i've also paid to go to one of his talks, the first bit about reproduction was really quite interesting, then it seemed to be about putting the fear of god into you that all your pups were at extreme risk of dying, then he listed all the products he was selling and developing to save their lives :blink: he basicly informed everyone there that the best way to save the pups from fading was to remove them from mum when they were born and raise them on his patented puppy feeding machine :wacko:

seemed more like paying to listen to a sales pitch to me

 

[jayp]

i've not come accross it yet "touch wood"
i've also paid to go to one of his talks, the first bit about reproduction was really quite interesting, then it seemed to be about putting the fear of god into you that all your pups were at extreme risk of dying, then he listed all the products he was selling and developing to save their lives  :blink: he basicly informed everyone there that the best way to save the pups from fading was to remove them from mum when they were born and raise them on his patented puppy feeding machine  :wacko:

seemed more like paying to listen to a sales pitch to me

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I thought it was a bit of a sales talk too although at no time did he say remove pups from mum but his feeding machine was for litters which had to be hand reared through loss of the bitch or rejection of the pups.

As he is not a vet and does not vaccinate he dosnt stand to benefit from herpes vaccine.

However as he is not a fan of most vets or of complete feeding he cant be all bad Jan

 

[joe90]

ive never heard of it so it cant be that much of a problem if everyone hasnt heard of it can it

 

[Seraphina]

I would be very reluctant to be giving another vaccine for problem that does not seem to be widespread. Just because supposedly high percentage of dogs have this virus, it obviously does not cause a widespread problem. Vast majority of mated bitches conceive and raise their pups.

 

[seaspot_run]

Maybe this thread needs to be in the more "general" category.

Herpesvirus problems with puppies are not common, but they are sure no joke. We do not have a vaccine for it here in the USA.

I had a heartbreaking experience two years ago when I lost an entire litter from my Bluestreak bitch to this problem. Maybe it is that I hadn't had her at tons of shows so she must not have already gotten it and had immunity. I believe she was exposed three weeks or so before her litter was born--but when a pregnant bitch goes a couple of days of just seeming a bit lazy when she's heavily pregnant and it's July and about 100 degrees (that would be farenheit) heat index outside, you don't really think she's sick. I had another young dog who had a mild cough and just seemed a bit "off" at around the same time.

What happens when a bitch with no immunity is exposed during the last few weeks of her pregnancy is that she delivers a beautiful litter of healthy pups, which then contract the virus from the mother in the process of being born. They then die starting about 24 hours after birth, by ones and twos....in the most pitiful way imaginable. There is nothing you can do when they catch at that age...and I did try raising the temperature of the bed, but it was too late by the time we had a diagnosis. Puppies who get it later on can be nursed through but they sometimes have neurological problems. If the bitch is exposed early in the pregnancy, she will likely abort or resorb the litter.

Mable's litter of 9 pups took nearly a week to die. The last one looked healthy and normal for three days after the it had been left as the sole survivor, then sickened and died, too.

It was without question the most heartbreaking thing I have experienced in my years in dogs. We don't have a vaccine for it available here. I have talked to other breeders who had much the same experience, although one or two seem to have realized what was going on sooner than I did and managed to save some pups (of course, my first pup died on a Friday night and the emergency clinic over the weekend was NO HELP at all--I had NO idea what my pups had and it took an internet post for breeders who had seen the same thing to e-mail me and tell me what it was). But I really do think that survival of pups has everything to do with when the dam was exposed, or if the pups were exposed later on--2-4 weeks of age instead of right at birth.

Mabel whelped two subsequent litters which were fine. I have also had one litter born out of a different bitch which was fine. The sire of the litter that died definitely did not transmit it to her, but he lives with me and obviously has been exposed. He bred both her and other bitches afterwards and those litters were fine. The stud dog is seldom the source of a herpesvirus infection. It is not transmitted sexually, but more like a cold or the flu. I checked her antibody levels before she had her third litter (the one right after the litter that died) and they were still quite high which meant her pups would have had maternal antibody protection.

Karen Lee

 

[jayp]

Thanks for that reply Karen it sounds absolutely horrble. Just out of interest if a vaccine was available which it now is over here would you now vaccinate?

Apparently the bitch is done 2 weeks before mating, again at 7 weeks into pregnancy then again 2 weeks after the pups are born. The only negative from the floor yesterday were early whelping after the jab which has not been proved to have been a result of the vaccine.

Perhaps moderators could move this topic as it is interesting to here of any other experiences. thanks Jan

 

[seaspot_run]

I think what I do would do is first run a herpes titer on the bitch and if she had antibodies, not vaccinate. If she had no antibodies (negative titer) then I would definitely vaccinate if a vaccine was available.

 

[seaspot_run]

I think what I do would do is first run a herpes titer on the bitch and if she had antibodies, not vaccinate. If she had no antibodies (negative titer) then I would definitely vaccinate if a vaccine was available.

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I wanted to add that Cathie (dragonfly) was incredibly supportive through this whole ordeal. She phoned me throughout this very difficult time to offer encouragement and sympathy.

:wub:

 

[JAX]

That must have been a really terrible experiance for you Karen,

I think you were very brave to even think about another litter . Of course Im sure you were worried until the pups were born and stayed healthy . lets hope no K9ers ever have that experiance ( or any body for that matter )

Ive only ever lost two pups , they lived for a couple of days , but it was obvious when they were born all was not right I put it down to the genetics not being compatable .

going back to the topic Jan ,I dont know of any one whose had it , I suppose it is similar to the equine herpes Virus is it ? ,

 

[dessie]

As I understand it from various Vets, the main problem with testing is that if the virus is laying dormant it does not show up in the blood tests and most dogs live quite happily with the virus, never experiencing any symptoms.

Also affected puppies are not just 'normal' fading puppies (if there is such a thing) but are extremely noisy, absolutely shrieking in pain apparently. So the problem is a bit like parvovirus, once seen never forgotten and unmistakeable.

 

[seaspot_run]

That must have been a really terrible experiance for you Karen, 
I think you were very brave to even think about another litter . Of course Im sure you were worried until the pups were born and stayed healthy . lets hope no K9ers ever have that experiance ( or any body for that matter )

Ive only ever lost two pups , they lived for a couple of days , but it was obvious when they were born all was not right    I put it down to the genetics not being compatable .

going back to the topic Jan ,I dont know of any one whose had it , I suppose it is similar to the equine herpes Virus is it ? ,

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I am a big believer in getting right back up on the horse that just threw you, but yes, the next couple litters I had I was terrified until the pups got a week of age and nobody had died yet.

And they do die in shrieking agony. It really upset my Mabel, too. She is fiercely maternal. Thank God it wasn't her first litter that this happened to. She looked for her lost puppies for weeks and weeks.

 

[jayp]

It was said in the talk i went to that tests have only been done on bitches and as i said before 80% were found to carry the virus but show no symptoms, it would seem logical to me then with the way the virus is transmitted that the same number of dogs also carry it ,including studs of course. As in the human herpes virus it is activated by stress ( how many coldsore sufferers develop a coldsore just when they dont want one, holidays ,job interviews, dentist visits etc ) when under stress. It appears to be the same in dogs and mating whelping is the most stressful time. It appears that absorption of puppies is the most common result, maybe this is why we dont here more of it. One solution i have read about is that the bitch should be kept well away from any potential source of infecion such as any other dogs especially those going to shows etc for the last 3 weeks f pregnancy, but surely this would only stop an initial infection and not help if she already carries theinactive virus.? Jan

 

[dragonfly]

I wondered at the time of Karen's terrible experience if the drop in temperature of the bitch just before whelping could possibly increase the viral activity in the dam particularly if she had been subject a recent infection that had not quite cleared, a bit like a cold coming back. This would then infect the puppies at partum.

Karen had a truly torrid time with poor Mabel, it was horrendous.

Anybody who thinks breeding is plain sailing because they have never had a problem can thank their Gods and Lucky stars. When you have problems it can be absolutely heartbreaking.

In spite of this misfortune it really has been a very rewarding experience to send a bitch to someone you trust and respect, to see her performing in the ring and on the field, and to watch her kids grow up. I have visited two of Mabel's litters in the US and I can only say that if you get the chance for a co-operation like this you are a lucky breeder.

I am happy to say that Mabel is now quite the lady of the house keeping the sofas warm for Karen and Cliff and making sure that no tidbits of food are wasted on other whippets who need to keep their figures in good trim for the showring.

Cathie

 

[Seraphina]

It does sound absolutely horrendous. I have also seen puppies shrieking in agony from Parvo and distemper, it was more than 30 years ago and it still haunts me. But I am concerned that as we are overloading our dogs' system with more and more vaccinations and flea, worming, heart worm etc treatments, are we creating other problems? Like allergies and cancers. Life will never be totally free from hazards.

 

[Cartman]

I can only think of a male dog at the vets & saying to the one next to him "That bitch said it was only a cold sore". :- "

 

[JAX]

as per usual Cartman has to `lower` the tone :blink:

only you could come up withthat reply :lol:

 

[nicolexue]

Try this new herpes site http://www.STDromance.com