Coi - Letter From Dogs Today

[Eceni]

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Fascinating to hear different opinions - I wonder if someone can answer my query:if I decided to mate my line-bred bitch to an outcross stud dog(who is also line -bred along different bloodlines) would I still be running quite a risk of doubling up on recessive genetic nasties - assuming only certain health problems  occur in the breed - obviously a bulldog might have problems that don't occur in whippets.

Val

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You would. So if we take an example that won't burst blood vessels on this list, if you were to cross your GSD with a Clumber Spaniel, the resulting offspring (I am trying so hard not to imagine this) would still have appallingly bad hips. Similarly if my lurcher were to carry a recessive gene for an eye condition and I mated her to another carrier, the pups would still have a chance to inherit the eye pathology.

BUT I need to clarify - autoimmune disease is (as Natalia explained in admirable detail on the previous thread) as much a problem of reduced genetic diversity than one of matching up recessive nasties - so it's more complicated than that.

manda

 

[fable]

Thanks for your reply Manda- it really isn't easy making decisions about breeding - all the different views have given me a lot to think about.

Val

 

[seaspot_run]

Eceni--

Perhaps we would enjoy having you as a guest on one of the US message boards or lists. This topic is of great interest to many of us over here on this side of the pond.

With regard to autoimmune arthritis, I really only know of one US Whippet who was diagnosed with it. He was only VERY loosely linebred--one ancestor in common within a 6 generation pedigree and that was far back on both sides (5th and 6th generations).

I have just gotten a program which will allow me to compute COI--how many generations do you advise to go back? For example, I am about to do a breeding which based on four generations is 0% but when you add two more generations, it jumps precipitously-IOW, these are all a lot of different dogs who go back to the same root sire and dam lines.

Karen Lee

 

[patsy]

Fascinating to hear different opinions - I wonder if someone can answer my query:if I decided to mate my line-bred bitch to an outcross stud dog(who is also line -bred along different bloodlines) would I still be running quite a risk of doubling up on recessive genetic nasties - assuming only certain health problems  occur in the breed - obviously a bulldog might have problems that don't occur in whippets.

Val

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Well Fable it is a leap of faith whether you listen to whippet breeders of many years standing or an anaesthetist who is guided by science. The breeder of your bitch if well known would be of help, and well known breeders of stud dogs. know what lines suit their dogs, be it line bred or out cross. We have a saying about OIL AND WATER DON'T MIX.

 

[patsy]

Eceni--
Perhaps we would enjoy having you as a guest on one of the US message boards or lists.  This topic is of great interest to many of us over here on this side of the pond. 

With regard to autoimmune arthritis, I really only know of one US Whippet who was diagnosed with it.  He was only VERY loosely linebred--one ancestor in common within a 6 generation pedigree and that was far back on both sides (5th and 6th generations).

I have just gotten a program which will allow me to compute COI--how many generations do you advise to go back? For example, I am about to do a breeding which based on four generations is 0% but when you add two more generations, it jumps precipitously-IOW, these are all a lot of different dogs who go back to the same root sire and dam lines.

Karen Lee

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WELL WHAT IS OUR LOSS WILL BE AMERICAS GAIN

 

[Eceni]

I have just gotten a program which will allow me to compute COI--how many generations do you advise to go back? For example, I am about to do a breeding which based on four generations is 0% but when you add two more generations, it jumps precipitously-IOW, these are all a lot of different dogs who go back to the same root sire and dam lines.
Karen Lee

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Well done that woman... brave move. I think Natalia on the last list said she was looking at 20 generations but I may be wrong - anyone with more stamina than me can look it up.

What you need, more than anything else, is a geneticist. Just that you'd need to treat her gently for it to be worth her while....

m

 

[fable]

Fascinating to hear different opinions - I wonder if someone can answer my query:if I decided to mate my line-bred bitch to an outcross stud dog(who is also line -bred along different bloodlines) would I still be running quite a risk of doubling up on recessive genetic nasties - assuming only certain health problems  occur in the breed - obviously a bulldog might have problems that don't occur in whippets.

Val

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Well Fable it is a leap of faith whether you listen to whippet breeders of many years standing or an anaesthetist who is guided by science. The breeder of your bitch if well known would be of help, and well known breeders of stud dogs. know what lines suit their dogs, be it line bred or out cross. We have a saying about OIL AND WATER DON'T MIX.

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Thanks for your reply Patsy - although I find genetics fascinating ( albeit extremely complicated for a layman )- I do know that studying pedigrees is of limited use without the help of experienced breeders who actually knew the dogs listed, and their faults and virtues. I have bred one litter - with the blessing and guidance of the breeder of my bitch - and I hope to eventually breed a litter from her daughter, and again I will be hoping to get advice on what might suit from experienced breeders who know what works. :thumbsup:

Val

 

[seaspot_run]

I don't think that an extremely low COI over 20 generations is possible in purebred

Whippets when you are talking about the showbred gene pool.

The only way to accomplish this is to go the BWRA route and open up the gene pool to other breeds. We aren't like Salukis or Basenjis where you can go back into the bush and bring back dogs from native people's stock which are still technically the same breed in phenotype.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not workable to take into account more than 8 generations, and I think 6 might even be stretching it. Our show gene pool is a pool which goes back to a limited number of founders.

 

[Eceni]

I don't think that an extremely low COI over 20 generations is possible in purebred Whippets when you are talking about the showbred gene pool. 

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But possibly worth knowing what they are in any case?

and worth also knowing which distinct lines exist. There *are* people doing that - just that I don't know enough to find them?

Natalia is your source for all of this - or an equivalent....

m

 

[seaspot_run]

I don't think that an extremely low COI over 20 generations is possible in purebred Whippets when you are talking about the showbred gene pool. 

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But possibly worth knowing what they are in any case?

and worth also knowing which distinct lines exist. There *are* people doing that - just that I don't know enough to find them?

Natalia is your source for all of this - or an equivalent....

m

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If people are keeping a distinct line, then they are doing that by inbreeding and linebreeding back onto their own foundational stock.

There is simply no other way to accomplish this when you are talking about that number of generations.

I'd love to hear from Natalia. For me to breed my show stock to a West Coast racebred line would certainly about as outcrossed as one can get. But their stock is not particularly outcrossed, for the most part. Most of the best racers go back multiple times to the same imports.

 

[Eceni]

If people are keeping a distinct line, then they are doing that by inbreeding and linebreeding back onto their own foundational stock.
There is simply no other way to accomplish this when you are talking about that number of generations.

I'd love to hear from Natalia.  For me to breed my show stock to a West Coast racebred line would certainly about as outcrossed as one can get. But their stock is not particularly outcrossed, for the most part.  Most of the  best racers go back multiple times to the same imports.

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Been thinking.... as far as I understand it, the CoI meaures the likelihood of any one gene being replicated in any given individual.... so if the repeats are a long, long way back (>10 generations) and there's a lot of other blood in there... the figures might come out OK

I'd go by Malcolm Willis' rule of thumb. If he's prepared to say that there aren't any pedigree dogs with a CoI less than 10, then that's probably a good aiming point?

Not sure about this, my brain's gone soggy, but it seems to make sense just now

m

 

[jayp]

This is a simple question and not meant to offend so please dont jump on me...

How do you know for sure the health of the dogs you have bred as surely although it may be possible to keep track of the litters from your bitches what about your stud dogs as these litters are sold by a 3rd party.

If as in the case of immune problems they do not become apparent until the dog is middle aged it is perhaps unlikely a pet owner will refer back to the breeder unless they have kept a close relationship

As for not being aware of these issues i have posted that i have a dog with poliarthritis!!!!! Not bred by me so could this dogs ancestors be in your line?

No-one has asked me but he came from somewhere!!!!!

Other owners also said on the previous thread they had dogs with immune problems, I have asked them as it concerns me when and if i decide to breed, HAVE YOU?

No-one has said its rife but beleive me its there all right

 

[nina]

This is a simple question and not meant to offend so please dont jump on me...
How do you know for sure the health of the dogs you have bred as surely although it may be possible to keep track of the litters from your bitches what about your stud dogs as these litters are sold by a 3rd party.

If as in the case of immune problems they do not become apparent until the dog is middle aged it is perhaps unlikely a pet owner will refer back to the breeder unless they have kept a close relationship

As for not being aware of these issues i have posted that i have a dog with poliarthritis!!!!!  Not bred by me so could this dogs ancestors be in your line?

No-one has asked me but he came from somewhere!!!!!

Other owners also said on the previous thread they had dogs with immune problems,  I have asked them as it concerns me when and if i decide to breed, HAVE YOU?

No-one has said its rife but beleive me its there all right

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Well i can only speak as to what i know personally & i have obviously missed your post totally where ever it was :blink: I do apologise.

I have spoken to several people this afternoon, long standing in the breed & apart from one who had heard a rumour the others like me seem to be at a loss as to know any dogs in the breed who have had this?

I'm certainly not saying it doesnt exist or that other health faults have not raised their head from time to time but the bottom line is any breeder can only do their best.

If they know for sure that a dog has had/produced a certain health issue then they can think wisely & eradicate that dog/line from their breeding programme. Any responsible breeder can only do their best at all times to work with the knowledge they have.

In answer to your other question regarding if your stud dog is used & then the pups are then bred on from & you are not kept in the loop as to their well being, well you can only work on what you know & to be honest no breeder would ever breed if they thought that pups sired & bred on from by their stud dogs were producing health faults but not knowing, they have to do as i say the best they can.

 

[fewterer]

Ok so my take on this is that what you are saying is 15 years ago a vet you knew made a sweeping statement that show breeders had created Autoimmune Arthritis in a whippet?

Yes, by definition as the instances of immune-mediated diseases in whippets can be clearly traced back to a certain number of individuals (who had all been closely linebred themselves) at a time before there was differentiation between distinct show, racing or coursing lines, and can now be found in all of these.

 

[UKUSA]

Well Nina all I seem to be doing today is agreeing with everything you ve said, I think that you have talked a lot of sense. I know that when we sell puppies into new homes we really try to impress upon the new owners that if anything happens to the puppy we want to know. As for breeding on well all our puppies are endorsed. The thing is that once the puppy grows up the new owners dont always think to give you a progress report. At the end of the day you do the best you can.

Nicky

 

[UKUSA]

Ok so my take on this is that what you are saying is 15 years ago a vet you knew made a sweeping statement that show breeders had created Autoimmune Arthritis in a whippet?

Yes, by definition as the instances of immune-mediated diseases in whippets can be clearly traced back to a certain number of individuals (who had all been closely linebred themselves) at a time before there was differentiation between distinct show, racing or coursing lines, and can now be found in all of these.

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Are you saying that the immune disease can be traced back to the mists of time and if so how far back are we talking? And if that is what you are saying on what evidence do you base this claim?

Nicky

 

[nina]

Well Nina all I seem to be doing today is agreeing with everything you ve said, I think that you have talked a lot of sense. I know that when we sell puppies into new homes we really try to impress upon the new owners that if anything happens to the puppy we want to know. As for breeding on well all our puppies are endorsed. The thing is that once the puppy grows up the new owners dont always think to give you a progress report. At the end of the day you do the best you can.Nicky

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Funny old world isnt it Nicky BUT i beleive when the good of the breed is at heart a lot of people have the same way of thinking.

I also think when you have been around a few years you all kind of learnt by the same rule of thumb.

Its easy to start witch hunts, i know, being involved in a numerically small breed where health issues are rife things come out of the closet pretty quickly, in a large breed like whippets it could be any number of years before a breeder found out that their stud dog produced a puppy that then years down the line went on to produce a fault. If they havent had it themselves how the hell would they know???

I really beleive that most breeders do have the good of the breed at heart, if they knew for sure there was a health issue of any sort they would act accordingly & i feel & this is just my personal view that the whippet here in the UK is in good hands :thumbsup:

 

[patsy]

Well Nina all I seem to be doing today is agreeing with everything you ve said, I think that you have talked a lot of sense. I know that when we sell puppies into new homes we really try to impress upon the new owners that if anything happens to the puppy we want to know. As for breeding on well all our puppies are endorsed. The thing is that once the puppy grows up the new owners dont always think to give you a progress report. At the end of the day you do the best you can.Nicky

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Funny old world isnt it Nicky BUT i beleive when the good of the breed is at heart a lot of people have the same way of thinking.

I also think when you have been around a few years you all kind of learnt by the same rule of thumb.

Its easy to start witch hunts, i know, being involved in a numerically small breed where health issues are rife things come out of the closet pretty quickly, in a large breed like whippets it could be any number of years before a breeder found out that their stud dog produced a puppy that then years down the line went on to produce a fault. If they havent had it themselves how the hell would they know???

I really beleive that most breeders do have the good of the breed at heart, if they knew for sure there was a health issue of any sort they would act accordingly & i feel & this is just my personal view that the whippet here in the UK is in good hands :thumbsup:

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Well said Nina

 

[anniewhippet]

I have just caught up with these threads for various reasons but would like to ask a few simple questions & make a few comments now.

Eceni, if I remember correctly, your original thread started because you were thinking of purchasing a Whippet, am I correct and have you decided on one now following the many various posts?

I also question your post about the 'wide' gene pool of 50 years ago, was it that wide as I believed it to be closer than stated if you look at copies of some of the 'old' pedigrees.

I, as an occassional breeder, take great care when researching a potential stud dog not just for any possible puppy I might keep but for those dearly loved pets that I sell. If I am lucky enough to produce myself a 'real goodun' thats a bonus but the aim is to produce a good all round litter, be it pet or show as they are all pets first. And I know this is true of the vast majority of us, thank goodness.

Perhaps some 'health' problems are showing themselves more now with the improved technology you quote, could it be that 50 years ago dogs were put to sleep because the diagnosis was not known???

I believe in open debate but question the direction some posts take. We have a numerically large breed and I think responsible breeders/exhibitors/owners will address any problems when they arise & hopefully deal with them in a civilised and productive manner.

I apologise for the 'ramble' and promise to step back now.

 

[jayp]

This is a simple question and not meant to offend so please dont jump on me...
How do you know for sure the health of the dogs you have bred as surely although it may be possible to keep track of the litters from your bitches what about your stud dogs as these litters are sold by a 3rd party.

If as in the case of immune problems they do not become apparent until the dog is middle aged it is perhaps unlikely a pet owner will refer back to the breeder unless they have kept a close relationship

As for not being aware of these issues i have posted that i have a dog with poliarthritis!!!!!  Not bred by me so could this dogs ancestors be in your line?

No-one has asked me but he came from somewhere!!!!!

Other owners also said on the previous thread they had dogs with immune problems,   I have asked them as it concerns me when and if i decide to breed, HAVE YOU?

No-one has said its rife but beleive me its there all right

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Well i can only speak as to what i know personally & i have obviously missed your post totally where ever it was :blink: I do apologise.

I have spoken to several people this afternoon, long standing in the breed & apart from one who had heard a rumour the others like me seem to be at a loss as to know any dogs in the breed who have had this?

I'm certainly not saying it doesnt exist or that other health faults have not raised their head from time to time but the bottom line is any breeder can only do their best.

If they know for sure that a dog has had/produced a certain health issue then they can think wisely & eradicate that dog/line from their breeding programme. Any responsible breeder can only do their best at all times to work with the knowledge they have.

In answer to your other question regarding if your stud dog is used & then the pups are then bred on from & you are not kept in the loop as to their well being, well you can only work on what you know & to be honest no breeder would ever breed if they thought that pups sired & bred on from by their stud dogs were producing health faults but not knowing, they have to do as i say the best they can.

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hi, my post was on the previous genetics thread, which was long so can understand if you missed it, i would certainly hope no one would knowingly breed from unhealthy stock ,my point was that people are contantly saying THEYRE LINES ARE HEALTHY so are fine to continue breeding in the same way but as you have just said you cannot KNOW they are healthy you can only do your best with the knowledge you have.