Colour Genetics Books

[beaker]

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if one of these creams was put to a black how much influence would the cream have on the colour of the offspring?

would it make a big difference it being almost a recessive, recessive :wacko:

 

[malin]

if one of these creams was put to a black how much influence would the cream have on the colour of the offspring?
would it make a big difference it being almost a recessive, recessive  :wacko:  

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First creme masking is extremely rare and therefore very little is known.

As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong please!): It does not seem to be inherited in a simple recessive way, it is likely to be a polygenetic trait that can stay hidden for many generations and then 'suddenly' (=yet unknown reasons) be expressed in an individuals phenotype. Interestingly enough it also seems to work like the dominant colours, i.e. both parents do not need to be carriers.

lets say we have a creme masked bitch that is actually a homozygous dominant with regards to brindle (= a brindle bitch only carrying the brindle colour)...

we put her to a stud that is black and carries fawn

==> we have a situation where a black from fawn lines together with a 'fawn' throws a litter of blacks (this we did expect) and brindles (w00t) (w00t) (w00t)

(the chances for a creme masked puppy (it would be either black/brindle or brindle/fawn) is very, very low)

because creme masking is so very rare I for one would do a DNA test to be sure about the parentage in this case... if the parents are correct we wouldn't need to do a DNA test for the bitches subsequent litters

 

[beaker]

i was just curious as when my black lad Oto (who's parents are blue and brindle) was put over a cream bitch with liver nose and eye rims they produced 6 blacks and one blue

 

[dessie]

As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong please!): It does not seem to be inherited in a simple recessive way, it is likely to be a polygenetic trait that can stay hidden for many generations and then 'suddenly' (=yet unknown reasons) be expressed in an individuals phenotype. Interestingly enough it also seems to work like the dominant colours, i.e. both parents do not need to be carriers.

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Hmmmm ...................................... this sounds like the same for cleft palates

 

[dessie]

OK .................... million dollar question
So what can I expect to get from mating a black dog (product of a red brindle x black) to a blue brindle bitch (product of a blue brindle x blue brindle parti with no black in either sire or dam line)??????

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Lots of puppies hopefully :clown:

Linda

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LOL! :lol: Hopefully but not toooooooooooooo many!!! :teehee: :b

 

[Seraphina]

==> we have a situation where a black from fawn lines together with a 'fawn' throws a litter of blacks (this we did expect) and brindles  (w00t)   (w00t)   (w00t)

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I cannot see a problem here; If a black(black X fawn) mated to fawn throws brindles, the brindle comes from the black animal (or the fawn sire is not the father).

 

[Seraphina]

i was just curious as when my black lad Oto (who's parents are blue and brindle) was put over a cream bitch with liver nose and eye rims they produced 6 blacks and one blue 

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That would support my believe that the diluted creme is hypostatic to everything else and therefore so rarely seen

 

[Seraphina]

==> we have a situation where a black from fawn lines together with a 'fawn' throws a litter of blacks (this we did expect) and brindles  (w00t)   (w00t)   (w00t)

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I cannot see a problem here; If a black(black X fawn) mated to fawn throws brindles, the brindle comes from the black animal (or the fawn sire is not the father).

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Sorry I missread your post and I cannot get back to edit :b I still cannot quite understand your point, It is perfectly possible to get brindles from fawn to black.

OK it is the bitch that is fawn=creme, but it is still no problem. Obviously you have a black dog carrying brindle. The brindle being inherited through his black ancestors. He can sire blacks and brindles only. That still points to the creme being recessive. And yes of-course the creme will still have apropriate genes on all the other loci. But I am not aware if anybody actually located this gene (genes). The only way to know is to mate two diluted cremes together; if i am right you get 100% creme dilute litter, if i am wrong you get any other colour in the parents genome.

 

[Seraphina]

==> we have a situation where a black from fawn lines together with a 'fawn' throws a

litter of blacks (this we did expect) and brindles w00t.gif w00t.gif w00t.gif

Must be going senile, or it was just too early in the morning after a late night and too many glasses of wine :b

Of course, black dog from black to fawn cannot carry brindle. But that stil does not mean the creme is dominant.

 

[Sidewinders]

How interesting! I'm also curious about color genetics in whippets.

And also a question. I've recently came to conclusion that my first whippet who looked white/fawn (in fact fawn was only one ear) seems was in fact... white with bluebrindle! (w00t) As in his only litter out of my white/black Pollie (her parents - black Irish marked sire x pure black dam) he gave among other puppies... one white/redbrindle! And there is no doubt that he was the only one sire of this litter. And I suppose that Pollie is not carrying brindle herself. :blink: Just it was difficult to see stripes on Willie's ear and it looked fawn. Could it be so?

 

[Judy]

How interesting! I'm also curious about color genetics in whippets.
And also a question. I've recently came to conclusion that my first whippet who looked white/fawn (in fact fawn was only one ear) seems was in fact... white with bluebrindle! (w00t)   As in his only litter out of my white/black Pollie (her parents -  black Irish marked sire x pure black dam) he gave among other puppies... one white/redbrindle! And there is no doubt that he was the only one sire of this litter. And I suppose that Pollie is not carrying brindle herself. :blink:   Just it was difficult to see stripes on Willie's ear and it looked fawn. Could it be so?

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Pollie could be carrying brindle from either on of her black parents. On the other hand it is also possible that your lightly marked white & fawn was really white & brindle like you said. You need to look at what was behind them.

 

[Sidewinders]

Pollie could be carrying brindle from either on of her black parents. On the other hand it is also possible that your lightly marked white & fawn was really white & brindle like you said. You need to look at what was behind them.

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Thanks, Judy! I thought of such possibility that Pollie could carry brindle, but I don't think so... as most of Pollie's ancestors are black, only one is brindle. But Willie's parents are - sire bluebrindle Irish marked and dam is white/brindle parti. And it's in fact difficult to check what Pollie is carrying... In her first litter there were 4 white/black parti and 1 redbrindle parti and in second litter there were 2 Irish marked brindles (redbrindle and... I don't know how to call this pattern, probably blackbrindle) and 1 black Irish marked.

It was also interesting for me to know what Pollie's puppies carry. Recently her white/black daughter whelped a litter and now I know that she carries dilute gene as there is blue/fawn girl in her litter out of brindle dog (who of course also carries dilute)! Now we're waiting for one more litter out of Pollie's white/black son Teddy and white/brindle bitch. Hope this litter will also show if Teddy carries dilute gene. We'll see! )

BTW, I've read somewhere that sometimes red dog can carry black, not sure how it works, but there was stated that it is possible. :- " Have anyone heard about it?

 

[Seraphina]

How interesting! I'm also curious about color genetics in whippets.
And also a question. I've recently came to conclusion that my first whippet who looked white/fawn (in fact fawn was only one ear) seems was in fact... white with bluebrindle! (w00t)   As in his only litter out of my white/black Pollie (her parents -  black Irish marked sire x pure black dam) he gave among other puppies... one white/redbrindle! And there is no doubt that he was the only one sire of this litter. And I suppose that Pollie is not carrying brindle herself. :blink:   Just it was difficult to see stripes on Willie's ear and it looked fawn. Could it be so?

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Yes, that is quite possible. i used to know a Great Dane who looked fawn, but mated to fawn he produced brindle pups and a huge uproar (w00t) . But if you looked very carefully you could see few stripes.

However, if you cannot see any stripes on Willie's ear it is more likely that it comes from Pollie, if she had brindle in background. If she comes from few generations black to black breeding the brindle can be there without manifesting itself. All what you need is one ancestor with brindling

 

[Judy]

BTW, I've read somewhere that sometimes red dog can carry black, not sure how it works, but there was stated that it is possible. :- "  Have anyone heard about it?

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No, not possible as such. I think sometimes people say that when what they really mean is that a fawn can have the dense (D) gene so that if mated to a blue (dd), it can produce blacks.

 

[Sarsanet]

OK .................... million dollar question
So what can I expect to get from mating a black dog (product of a red brindle x black) to a blue brindle bitch (product of a blue brindle x blue brindle parti with no black in either sire or dam line)??????

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You will get a lovely interesting mixture of colours that could include full black, black & white, full blue, blue & white, blue brindle, blue brindle & white. I doubt the brindles will be pigmented.

Good luck.

GailK.

 

[Seraphina]

I just found several copies of the Clarence C.Little book at Abebooks website from as little as GBP 34 ;

abbebooks