Comforting puppy when fearful or ignoring the puppy?

[sparkle4ever]

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I have been informed that when your puppy shows fear during say the socialisation process, getting familiar and used to new sights and sounds, people, other dogs, etc, that if you comfort him, that is the wrong thing to do and will show him/reinforce he has something to fear. Instead it is suggested that you basically ignore the fear he displays and don't comfort him at all.
Does that sound right to you? I am curious as I admit to always comforting.

 

[JoanneF]

No, not right at all - it's old fashioned advice. Trust your own instincts.

If you were afraid of a giant hairy spider in the bathroom, if I comforted you, you wouldn't become more afraid of it, would you?

So it's fine to tell your puppy gently that it's okay, and if appropriate deal with the problem yourself, by making it go away. That shows your puppy that you have his back and that he can rely on you to take care of the scary stuff and you won't over-face him with things he can't cope with. Then his trust in you will develop more, and his confidence will grow.

 

[sparkle4ever]

That is what I thought. It worried me when I heard it. And this is from a trainer, who has had many years of experience. We are starting puppy classes with her on Saturday. I am an actual psychotherapist, with my own background in complex trauma! I am very qualified in psychology. So you can imagine how I found this shocking. If my mother had comforted me, taken care of me, reassured me when I was a baby/little girl, I would not have all my fears and phobias today!
But how to trust a trainer when they come out with something like this?

 

[JudyN]

If you can, let the dog choose whether to go closer to the scary thing or retreat. Going back to the spider, reassuring or ccomforting me while making me approach the spider wouldn't be helpful. Saying that it's OK to stand a bit further away puts me in control, so I'm less scared. I found that by giving my dog the choice of whether to walk past a scary dustbin lorry, eventually he would choose to steel himself, walk past, then look to me to say, 'I was a brave boy, Mummy, wasn't I? Do I get a treat?'!

I wonder if you should consider looking for another trainer? If you like, feel free to post a link to their website if they have one so we could check out their credentials.

 

[JoanneF]

I agree about looking for another trainer. It's excellent that you recognised this wasn't the right advice but what else might they get wrong?

Dog Training is an unregulated industry. My 90 year old neighbour, who has never owned a dog in her life, could start up in business as a trainer or behaviourist if she wanted.

So you could get someone who hasn't kept up with modern science - our understanding of canine behaviour grown a lot in the last 30 years or so but there are still some die hard, flat-earth theorists in dog training.

 

[sparkle4ever]

I agree with what you say and it is what I have done with my previous dog
I have already paid for a package with her, that's the thing.
Here is her website.

Alpha Dog Training and Behavioural Consultancy

www.alpha-dogtraining.co.uk

 

[JoanneF]

When I saw,the name of her website, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up because the alpha dog theory is very outdated and has been widely discredited. But, when I actually looked at it, she is accredited by COAPE and the APDT, which are both well known and respected professional bodies. That's very reassuring.

Since you have already paid, I'd suggest you go ahead but question anything that seems 'off'.

Is it possible at all that there's been a misunderstanding about what she meant regarding handling your puppy's fear? For example, if something scares him, I agree it's important not to make it into an issue, just calmly reassure your puppy and remove him or the scary thing as appropriate. could the line between not making an issue, and comforting him, be a bit blurry perhaps?

 

[sparkle4ever]

I think Alpha Dog is just the name and she is aware the theory is outdated.
But no, she definitely says to ignore the puppy when he/she is frightened. I will see if I can find something that she has written as much of what she has said was in a powerpoint video where she speaks. But I will try and find something and quote below;
'I’m sending details of the fear stages to you to read but the most important thing you need to know is that they should not be rewarded by you for reacting in the wrong way to something. Touching and a soft voice can be rewarding and they may think it is ok to be scared about whatever it is.'
And quoted from her words; 'if your dog gets worried or shakes through seeing other dogs and/or people, you mustn't say 'its okay, its okay' or smooth it, because if you do, you will increase its fear. You are his Mum and you will be telling your dog that its okay to be scared about something or not'.
She advocates ignoring his reaction.
What do you think?

(sorry this took so long, puppy stress meltdown...me, not the pup). Ended up with anxiety.

 

[sparkle4ever]

Indeed if it is say a coat on a chair that the dog suddenly gets frightened of, it is okay to go over and show him it is just a coat, etc. But she says no reassurance

 

[JoanneF]

No, I'm afraid I definitely disagree with her on that, for the reasons I already mentioned.

What seems to be missing is her understanding of the difference between behaviour and emotion. You are likely well aware of this but for anyone reading in future ...

We say to ignore, and not reward, undesirable behaviours (but see footnote below)*

Fear is an emotion and quite simply cannot be reinforced by reward. Like I said, if I rewarded you with chocolate when you saw a spider or a snake, you aren't going to get more afraid. Behaviour is a choice, emotion isn't. Your dog doesn't want to be afraid. Comforting him is more likely to make him feel safer, which is what you want.

Here are some articles in case you need more supporting information to put to her, if you choose to take that route.

The Myth of Reinforcing Fear

The Myth of Reinforcing Fear There is a school of thought in the training world that says you shouldn’t comfort or give treats to a frightened dog because you are reinforcing fear. For example, if your dog is frightened while getting groomed, you should not stroke them or distract them with...

www.theacademyofpetcareers.com

You Can't Reinforce Fear; Dogs and Thunderstorms - The Other End of the Leash

It thundered last week during a rain storm, and it reminded me how much trouble a storm can be in the life of a dog (and for those of us who love them.) Since thunder season is approaching, this seems like a good time to talk about one of the oft-repeated, and ever-so-inaccurate pieces of […]

www.patriciamcconnell.com

Truth and Myth about Reinforcing Fear and Anxiety

Reinforcing fear through coddling is a myth. Reinforcement refers to increasing the chance of a particular behavior, but fear is an emotion.

allthedogstraining.com

* Some behaviours, like barking and fence running are 'self-rewarding' so ignoring them isn't enough. But that's a topic for another day.

 

[sparkle4ever]

Thank you. And I totally agree with you. And I intend to say so too. As consider how many other owners are being given this advice and the resulting frightened pups.
Good start when I haven't even started the puppy class!

 

[JoanneF]

I have added some helpful links, which you may not have seen - just in case you need more supporting information.

 

[sparkle4ever]

Thank you so much

 

[sparkle4ever]

I have added some helpful links, which you may not have seen - just in case you need more supporting information.

Joanne, I did email the trainer, in advance of the first puppy session on Saturday. I outlined all about emotion and behaviour. All about what we have discussed. She did answer, but I was so exhausted, couldn't make it out really! Fell asleep while pup was quiet. So trying to understand it now and I don't think she is getting it at all. I also asked about Barley with what I can see now is separation anxiety with my partner (as he is fine in the crate if he can see him) and she didn't really help with that. Which is what I needed the most, at this moment.
But picking out what she said, it goes something like this;
'I have quickly looked at the link which is discussing fireworks and I agree you don't just ignore that behaviour. Use click and reward and feed often during noise issues marking with a click the times that the dog isn't reacting which will be for very minute to start with. There is a lot of working to progress through firework and noise issues but we aren't dealing with that with Barley. I will read through that link further when I have time and will try to point you in the direction of some links that are science based below.'
Again here she is referring to behaviour and not making allowances for emotions of fear.
'For every piece of information on any subject you can find contradictions. Emotionality in dogs is similar to us but our brain is more advanced and we can discuss things with our children and adults to help get us through telling times and to learn and I as you know that some of my behaviour is definitely based on past history. Nature and nurture is a highly emotive subject in both dog and human discussions on fear, aggression and other behaviours. I do understand fear is an emotion but it can be increased and caused by environmental situations, our reactions to them and the stage the dog is in ie. fear stages.'
I don't think, that despite describing in good detail, she is still reverting to what she thinks is right.
'Pups learn from their mothers and siblings, if a puppy is poorly bred genetics also has a big effect on the dogs behaviour. Our reactions to behaviours we don't want in the dog can make the behaviours rewarding or obviously if we use aversive actions increase or make it fearful and with a dog which is what we are working with here we need to ensure that when it does something we don't want that we don't encourage it. Hence the use of treats and the clicker to mark good behaviours.'
These are her words, so forgive if hard to understand but I really don't think she is getting what I am saying and still goes on about behaviours and not emotions.
Then these links; the first two are books to support what she is saying;
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mood-Matte...47&s=books&sprefix=mera,stripbooks,129&sr=1-1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/EMRAA-Inte...2&s=books&sprefix=emra+,stripbooks,88&sr=1-12

And some videos I couldnt access but these two seem to be about the books and the science that backs what she thinks to be true;

Robert Falconer-Taylor chats with Karin Pienaar on MHERA – PET CPD

Behaviour – PET CPD

Then all of this;
'Hope these links help, you could contact Robert who is fantastic and can go through lots of issues you will find helpful I'm sure with your background.

As for reacting to fear, A bitch will or should be confident if it has been bred from, if pups are challenged correctly in the whelping box by unusual things being placed in there, noises etc happening and mum doesn't react they learn its nothing to worry about, if you watch a really good confident bitch she does nothing and stays settled if its noises, people entering, hoover going etc. If its something placed in the whelping bed she will go and interact with it to show pups its fine if they aren't investigating. The one thing we suggest is that if your other dog in a home is worried that you don't take your pup out with it as it will learn that behaviour. I have a shy pup in my group which goes out with an older bitch who is overly protective when he is showing fear of people, dogs or traffic and this is getting worse, owners pet him and praise but the situation is increasing not decreasing. There is a two pronged approach here, stop taking pup out with bitch and rewarding the fear by cuddling and smoothing and we are now going to use the clicker and highly tasty food to reward no reaction from a distance which I have found helps enormously.

If this isn't working then an adaptil collar or pet remedy plug in can help the pup to settle which are both things you could investigate, you can find both on amazon. We can have a further chat on Saturday before the others come in'

But all I got with reference to the crate problem and separation anxiety with my partner was this;

'We can use crate games to help with the crate issues is you wish to use a crate, I have had over thirty pups in my adult life and used crate games and crates to help control and safety issues and have trained pups I have bred to be happy in a crate if a new owner needed help. I have found also over 40 years of doing this job that nothing is written in stone every pup is different and every home is different some dogs do much better in a different home on occasions due to the dogs needs. '

Not much help for me.

But I wanted to share what was said to see if this 'science' and her way of thinking made sense to you

 

[JoanneF]

A couple of things.

First, can I suggest your puppy doesn't have separation anxiety. What he is displaying is totally normal puppy behaviour. If he were in the wild, he'd not be left alone until much later in his development, so don't panic, and please don't try to label him with SA yet. He is a normal puppy doing perfectly normal puppy things. Right now, he needs to know where his humans are, but after you have had him for about three weeks, you can start working on his independence and being able to left alone for short periods. Please nudge us again then so we don't mix up this issue with that.

Second, I had a look at the book summaries, the synopses neither support or dismiss her theory (or ours). But this made me smile - a lot!


Following a short introductory chapter, Pienaar throws us head-first in at the deep end with Chapter 2, which is the murky world of emotion neuroscience. But no need to panic. She’s holding onto our hand tightly as she reassures us


I agree with you, she is reverting to her existing beliefs and I think she may have taken what you said too literally regarding fireworks - that was only ever intended as an example of when a dog might need reassurance and comfort, of course we aren't exposing Barley to that . She probably isn't accustomed to having her training questioned.

What I'd suggest is that you go along to her session. She says lots of the right things (I'm a big fan of clicker training too) and her credentials are sound. See what she is like. But remember your own psychotherapy experience and know that your instinct seems to be good; so if she says something you don't feel right about, just park it, then check it out with us if you like, and above all don't feel pressurised to do anything that makes you or Barley uncomfortable.

 

[sparkle4ever]

Thank you Joanne. That makes sense and will go along and see.
And yes, I doubt anyone has questioned her. I am afraid that is me...there is always one that questions, I can say when I reflect on my life, it is always me! I never just roll over and accept (excuse the pun ).
But the SA possibility side of things. The reason why I have said that is because when Barley is placed in his crate and he sees my OH, he is perfectly fine, and he doesn't have to see me at all. But when we flip this situation, when Barley is placed in the crate, and OH is nowhere to be seen, then he screams the place down and gets extremely distressed. He has a bond with me, he is attached to OH.
This is an issue because OH has to go back to work. So far, OH has been around and not worked for the last week.

 

[sparkle4ever]

He should just take him to work and I should leave home! (Gawd, I almost like this idea )

 

[JoanneF]

When your OH isn't there, maybe don't have Barley in the crate. It sounds like a bit of FOMO - your OH is around but Barley is prevented from getting to him.

Try to occupy him (Barley, not OH ) or perhaps take him out and bring him back to the house when OH has already gone?

To start him being more independent we recommend the Flitting Game, developed by Emma Judson who is a behaviourist who also specialises in SA. I wouldn't suggest using it quite yet, usually it takes a dog a few weeks to settle in first.

Flitting Game... In Full, Extra Shiny...

Tedium and Boredom modelled excellently by Hattie Poodle!The Flitting Game is something I came up with (following much discussion with another trainer Jo Law) back in the late 1990s/early 2000s - wow, I feel old! I actually don't know when but I was certainly posting about it on various forums...

www.thecanineconsultants.co.uk

 

[sparkle4ever]

Thank you. Yes I will try to occupy him (the pup ) and that is a good idea to take him out and bring him back after OH has gone.
Did see that flitting game, will take another look. Thank you

 

[Hemlock]

This is my take on your prospective trainer's behaviour plus your puppy's.

Sometimes all of us make mistakes, and this is a comment not a criticism, and a generalisation not a specific.

The thing to do about mistakes is to acknowledge what we have learned from them and move on.

This trainer sounds unsuitable. Yes you have paid the fee, yes she has this and that qualification in an unregulated area - the qualifications are unregulated too.

If you enjoy the challenge, by all means carry on, being prepared to question everything and research from where these ideas originate. Plenty of people start with one idea - even the people who started out with dominance theory! and later realise they were mistaken and have the moral fibre to say so. But the theories remain out there and still peddled by others. Personally, I would cut my financial losses and move on to a more aware and less didactic trainer. Money can be replaced by other money, but each puppy is unique.

I also suggest you have a look at Emma Judson's site. She is personally known to me, and a few others here, and one of the most skilled empathetic trainers working today.

All the best with whatever you decide, and we are all here for you.