Control of my dog!

[Robins mum]

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Hi everyone!

I'm still having a battle with Robin controlling him when out and about! This past 3 weeks we have been walking quietly along a pathway to suddenly getting pinged right off my feet and both of us deposited in the centre of a huge junction road! Then I was alone there while Robin was after a 'minding his own business' labrador and his owner! There is NO DOUBT had any cars been on the road it would have been carnage!

Robin did the same thing yesterday on a more safe track thankfully, but I never even saw the squirrel he had bounced over to say hello too!

I love my dog I really do, some of you know how much I love him and he tries so VERY hard to be good but is just overwhelmed by years of genetic history to SEE and GO! My dog walker who I use a couple of times a week when necessary has had her ribs broken and wrist badly sprained on two occasions!

He is a lovely boy and really, really, really, is trying but is mostly obsessed with cats and squirrels! Of course, they are everywhere! I have taken to driving him to safer areas for a run, and this helps to keep his explosive needs at a low ebb, however, is costly to drive to places and never guaranteed safety.

He will sit, stay, wait, come, bake a cake and make toffee! You understand what I mean of course, he is an angel - but I REALLY REALLY don't want us both to end up as REAL ANGELS!

All contributions greatfully received, on the basis you all keep in mind this is one of the most reactive dogs on the planet, not only fast as s -t of a shovel, but very, very, powerful on the take off! So NO I am not tying myself to an exocet missile! TIA!

 

[JudyN]

I suggest that you go through all your previous threads and read the advice you've been given there, and see whether there's anything that you might not have felt would work then that would be worth trying again (and again, and again...) now. Because I doubt there's anything anyone can add that we haven't already said.

 

[Feverfew]

Bless you, just sending sympathy because I too have owned 'explosive' dogs, and it is a long road to travel.

There's obviously loads of advice on here, but one thing I have found from experience is that letting dogs 'run off' energy and high reactivity is often counterproductive. Running and chasing (even safely, e.g. in a fenced field) raises adrenaline levels, and then a dog is full of excitable hormones for several hours afterwards, or even in some cases days.

This means that reactive dogs need a very calm atmosphere, ideally all of the time. Everything a dog does in life will leak into his reactions on walks, so for example a dog that regularly barks at the front window, or chases birds in the garden, is going to be excitable on walks, just when you don't want him to be. Dogs cannot switch their adrenaline on and off, and they cannot self-regulate in the way that we can, for example when we mentally tell ourselves to calm down. So everything you do needs to be directed towards keeping Robin's adrenaline and excitement levels low. (That is not achieved, by the way, by telling him what to do.)

I don't have any specific advice beyond that, but maybe you could keep a diary of events throughout the day, and record his excitement levels on a scale of 1-10. So for example, Robin awake but sitting next to you while you sit reading might be a 3, seeing squirrel on a walk and barking and lungeing at it might be a 9, and spinning when you are about to put his food bowl down would be a 7. (I don't know whether he does any of these; they are just examples.)

That will help to identify what proportion of his time in 48 hours is spent in relaxed mode, and how much is in high excitement mode, and everything in between. That gives you a realistic picture not only of how much of his time is spent pumped up with adrenaline, but also where there are some situations that are relatively easy to resolve - e.g., blocking a front window with thick curtains.

 

[Robins mum]

I suggest that you go through all your previous threads and read the advice you've been given there, and see whether there's anything that you might not have felt would work then that would be worth trying again (and again, and again...) now. Because I doubt there's anything anyone can add that we haven't already said.

I'm grabbing at straws here! So much is wonderful about this dog, the only, and I mean, the only, difficulty I have with him is is natural instincts and speed of transaction .... I live in hopes that someone might just come up with something that I feel would work, but that has not been thought of previously -.........

 

[Robins mum]

Bless you, just sending sympathy because I too have owned 'explosive' dogs, and it is a long road to travel.

There's obviously loads of advice on here, but one thing I have found from experience is that letting dogs 'run off' energy and high reactivity is often counterproductive. Running and chasing (even safely, e.g. in a fenced field) raises adrenaline levels, and then a dog is full of excitable hormones for several hours afterwards, or even in some cases days.

This means that reactive dogs need a very calm atmosphere, ideally all of the time. Everything a dog does in life will leak into his reactions on walks, so for example a dog that regularly barks at the front window, or chases birds in the garden, is going to be excitable on walks, just when you don't want him to be. Dogs cannot switch their adrenaline on and off, and they cannot self-regulate in the way that we can, for example when we mentally tell ourselves to calm down. So everything you do needs to be directed towards keeping Robin's adrenaline and excitement levels low. (That is not achieved, by the way, by telling him what to do.)

I don't have any specific advice beyond that, but maybe you could keep a diary of events throughout the day, and record his excitement levels on a scale of 1-10. So for example, Robin awake but sitting next to you while you sit reading might be a 3, seeing squirrel on a walk and barking and lungeing at it might be a 9, and spinning when you are about to put his food bowl down would be a 7. (I don't know whether he does any of these; they are just examples.)

That will help to identify what proportion of his time in 48 hours is spent in relaxed mode, and how much is in high excitement mode, and everything in between. That gives you a realistic picture not only of how much of his time is spent pumped up with adrenaline, but also where there are some situations that are relatively easy to resolve - e.g., blocking a front window with thick curtains.

Thanks Feverfew, appreciate you input, These lunges are always right out of the blue! I will take more notice to be sure, but just having a quick flash through the old 'memory box' I would hazard a guess that for 80% of the day he is placid, if he sees someone outside, yes he will bark, but only a couple of barks and is very quickly stopped anyway, by my saying 'thank you ' and 'its okay, they are fine' and he judges my tone and calming hand on his body and complies. He does get very excited when we are going out for exercise however! Yes! even go as far to say as bonkers at times! For the majority of the time he is controllable, it is just these 4-5 times when he has been a real danger to life and I just can't relate it to anything at times, yes I get the squirrels and the cats, however other dogs don't disappear over the horizon to get the squirrel I couldn't see with a microscope! Or chase over to the upturned bin down a garden path, just because it 'might have been a cat! - or do they? ........

 

[JudyN]

Running and chasing (even safely, e.g. in a fenced field) raises adrenaline levels, and then a dog is full of excitable hormones for several hours afterwards, or even in some cases days.

Just because you might not be aware, Robin is a borzoi, so likely to be able to spend almost all the day in very low-energy mode, switch to full-on adrenoline-off-the-scale mode in an instant, and then revert to completely chilled very fast. That's not to say that what you've written doesn't apply, but it may put a slightly different perspective on it, particularly as we may be dealing with prey drive rather than reactivity.

 

[Feverfew]

Just because you might not be aware, Robin is a borzoi, so likely to be able to spend almost all the day in very low-energy mode, switch to full-on adrenoline-off-the-scale mode in an instant, and then revert to completely chilled very fast. That's not to say that what you've written doesn't apply, but it may put a slightly different perspective on it, particularly as we may be dealing with prey drive rather than reactivity.

Thanks JudyN; that is very useful to know. I was wondering how big/strong Robin is and his genetic background. I get what you are saying (having always favoured sighthounds myself), but I would also add that although genetics and function do clearly play a part, physiology does not differ significantly across breeds, whatever the source of arousal. Memory, habit and personality also play a huge role in how excitable dogs become. And of course the behaviour of the person with the dog, and any other dogs that are around.
What I'm saying is there are loads of factors influencing a dog's outward behaviour.

To Robin's mum, it really comes down to how big a problem it is for you. You say everything is ok the majority of the time and 80% of the time he is fine - that's true for many dogs and their owners, probably. For me, if a dog chases things down or around the garden, it's a big event, and I wouldn't have the dog on his own in the garden or, initially, off a long line in the garden if that were the case. For example, when I first arrived at this house, which has a medium-sized garden, my two dogs were on harnesses and leads every single time we went in the garden and they were never left out there alone. Why? Because the garden was too stimulating for them (lots of wildlife/cats/birds/foxes around, so lots of alert body language, and sometimes barking and hunting). We did the long lines, accompanied garden visits for 12-18 months, gradually removing the long lines once we were out there. Always the emphasis is on 'take your time, let's relax out here, nothing to worry about'.

They both wander in and out of the garden now, and my Carpathian Shepherd particularly likes to lie on the patio and watch the wildlife. That includes observing the foxes (the communication between him and the foxes is just extraordinary to watch). (His genetics are livestock guarding, so that's not entirely surprising.) I'd be the first to say that has been a lot of work and patience, which is why I say it depends how much of a problem it is for you.

 

[Tinytom]

Have you tried a halti on Robin so you have more control...

 

[Robins mum]

Thanks JudyN; that is very useful to know. I was wondering how big/strong Robin is and his genetic background. I get what you are saying (having always favoured sighthounds myself), but I would also add that although genetics and function do clearly play a part, physiology does not differ significantly across breeds, whatever the source of arousal. Memory, habit and personality also play a huge role in how excitable dogs become. And of course the behaviour of the person with the dog, and any other dogs that are around.
What I'm saying is there are loads of factors influencing a dog's outward behaviour.

To Robin's mum, it really comes down to how big a problem it is for you. You say everything is ok the majority of the time and 80% of the time he is fine - that's true for many dogs and their owners, probably. For me, if a dog chases things down or around the garden, it's a big event, and I wouldn't have the dog on his own in the garden or, initially, off a long line in the garden if that were the case. For example, when I first arrived at this house, which has a medium-sized garden, my two dogs were on harnesses and leads every single time we went in the garden and they were never left out there alone. Why? Because the garden was too stimulating for them (lots of wildlife/cats/birds/foxes around, so lots of alert body language, and sometimes barking and hunting). We did the long lines, accompanied garden visits for 12-18 months, gradually removing the long lines once we were out there. Always the emphasis is on 'take your time, let's relax out here, nothing to worry about'.

They both wander in and out of the garden now, and my Carpathian Shepherd particularly likes to lie on the patio and watch the wildlife. That includes observing the foxes (the communication between him and the foxes is just extraordinary to watch). (His genetics are livestock guarding, so that's not entirely surprising.) I'd be the first to say that has been a lot of work and patience, which is why I say it depends how much of a problem it is for you.

Thanks for that, I've spent a lot of money on fencing to keep Robin safe in the garden to enable him the choice of laying down watching the birds and hedgehogs or going and fetching the baby birds out of the nests to investigate them! Always very gentle they are not a breed genetically to kill or be viscious in any way! As to how much of a problem is it for me - well, do you want to die smashed in the face by a car or bus? I do not want either myself nor my wonderful dog to get injured, there has been a hit and run only 3 months ago here, I was passing taking Robin in the car to his park which is more or less safe for off lead romps and I'm not kidding you that poor man was very lucky to still be alive, but I do not know how much brain damage he sustained just know he was pumping arterial blood down his nose like mad and the poor greyhound he was walking tanked off and eventually ended up being put down The old man (about my age) is still in hospital as far as I am aware So once tanked into the road is once too many times

 

[JoanneF]

So once tanked into the road is once too many times

Maybe that answers some of your questions? I don't want to sound unkind, but if you will always have the fear of this happening, perhaps you need to forensically examine your situation, your priorities, and your choices. There's no shame to admitting being over-dogged. Perhaps you would feel safer with a dog you can manage more easily, and Robin could have a lifestyle with someone who could manage him without the stress you clearly have on your walks.

 

[Feverfew]

Thanks for that, I've spent a lot of money on fencing to keep Robin safe in the garden to enable him the choice of laying down watching the birds and hedgehogs or going and fetching the baby birds out of the nests to investigate them! Always very gentle they are not a breed genetically to kill or be viscious in any way! As to how much of a problem is it for me - well, do you want to die smashed in the face by a car or bus? I do not want either myself nor my wonderful dog to get injured, there has been a hit and run only 3 months ago here, I was passing taking Robin in the car to his park which is more or less safe for off lead romps and I'm not kidding you that poor man was very lucky to still be alive, but I do not know how much brain damage he sustained just know he was pumping arterial blood down his nose like mad and the poor greyhound he was walking tanked off and eventually ended up being put down The old man (about my age) is still in hospital as far as I am aware So once tanked into the road is once too many times

Well, it's certainly true that the consequences of a dog running into a busy road are always potentially fatal, for the dog if not the driver of a vehicle and/or the owner. From my perspective, no dog, however 'bomb proof' and however good their recall, should ever be off lead if they are able to reach a busy road. The same goes for dogs off lead where there is a risk they will get into a field containing livestock.

That being the case, your dog needs to be on a lead around roads, or you need to walk where there are no roads. But the bigger point for me is that you are giving Robin conflicting signals. He is allowed to chase squirrels etc in a park or in the garden without input from you. As long as he continues that sort of behaviour, you will face the risk of him doing the same thing when he is on the lead, because there is a good chance he will not make the distinction between seeing a squirrel when he is off lead, and seeing one when he is on lead. It is good that you have fencing in the garden, but with respect, the fencing makes you feel safe (because the dog can't escape from the garden). It does not make Robin feel safe and it does not offer him a choice of hunting or relaxing; indeed, it quite possibly frustrates him.

In my view, if the chasing continues intermittently (ie, at the park or on some walks) you are risking reinforcing it as a very strong behaviour (because intermittent rewards are always much stronger than very regular and frequent rewards). I honestly say all this to be helpful, not at all to criticise, as you obviously love Robin very much and he has a very happy relationship with you. At the moment, you are asking a lot of him on your on-lead walks, but not offering him enough support and guidance, particularly when he is off lead.

 

[Robins mum]

Maybe that answers some of your questions? I don't want to sound unkind, but if you will always have the fear of this happening, perhaps you need to forensically examine your situation, your priorities, and your choices. There's no shame to admitting being over-dogged. Perhaps you would feel safer with a dog you can manage more easily, and Robin could have a lifestyle with someone who could manage him without the stress you clearly have on your walks.

I don't give up just because I struggle with something! I would NEVER EVER let an animal go just because I am struggling NOR WOULD I EVER, EVER. just go out and get something else! I am MORTIFIED AT YOUR COMMENTS! I joined this group for support and guidance and hoping for some great suggestions - I HAVE HAD THAT! you have all been wonderful. I cannot believe that you do not know me well enough now to realise that this is not an ordinary 'opps I'm struggling' situation. His breeder struggled with him and had to let him go before he was flattened on the floor with Robin trying to get to me after he had been on 'holiday' for a couple of days, when I had to go on a mission. He is also an International judge and has 'some' knowledge of the breed! I understand and agree with your comments - spoken to many other people but please give me some credit! Robin is most likely destined to become dog food himself if I have to give him up! That is the very last thing I shall do! I am asking for suggestions/ solutions that might have come to light since my previous posts for help with him! Robin has come a long long way, but YES! That incident was awefull and has really frightened me, so urgency to get Robin less reactive is my goal now, and not pass the problem to some other person who will have no better chance than me! Dog behaviourists/trainers don't seem to have any answers so far, I missed a chance when shock took over, when I accidently bumped into Ceaser Millan and his wife (skate board and dog!) in Helston, perhaps he might have some thoughts, anyone have his number please? ......................

 

[Feverfew]

I don't know whether this Forum supports Millan's methods, but I would be very, very surprised if it did. (I would also delete my account.)

Methods of domination, control and punishment (which is essentially what Millan's methods amount to) have been shown over and over again to be very counterproductive indeed, as well as ethically highly dubious.

I know of no professional, qualified behaviourists who would sanction Millan's methods.

 

[JudyN]

I don't know whether this Forum supports Millan's methods, but I would be very, very surprised if it did. (I would also delete my account.)

The forum doesn't have an 'official' stance, but rest assured, if someone came on here promoting Millan's approach they be hit by a barrage of posts pointing out the error in their ways ;-)

Robin's mum, you have rather overreacted to JoanneF's post. No one would suggest that you give up easily - we know how long you have stuck with Robin and that you feel you have tried everything. You have also mentioned your age a number of times as possibly being part of the problem - a younger, stronger person may be in a better position to manage him safely. In fact, in the past you have posted that as much as you love him, you have thought he might be better off with someone else more able to manage him. So even if you now know you would never give him up, it is rather unfair for you to react as you did for JoanneF raising the same question herself.

 

[Feverfew]

I agree - there's absolutely no shame in seeing that a dog might be better served in a different situation, especially if an owner has physical limitations or just other problems in life that weren't a factor when the dog first arrived.

The first consideration that matters more than anything is the safety of the owner, the dog, and anyone they encounter on walks.

 

[Robins mum]

The forum doesn't have an 'official' stance, but rest assured, if someone came on here promoting Millan's approach they be hit by a barrage of posts pointing out the error in their ways ;-)

Robin's mum, you have rather overreacted to JoanneF's post. No one would suggest that you give up easily - we know how long you have stuck with Robin and that you feel you have tried everything. You have also mentioned your age a number of times as possibly being part of the problem - a younger, stronger person may be in a better position to manage him safely. In fact, in the past you have posted that as much as you love him, you have thought he might be better off with someone else more able to manage him. So even if you now know you would never give him up, it is rather unfair for you to react as you did for JoanneF raising the same question herself.

I have no intention of giving up on Robin, it is not his fault and if I have offended people then I am sorry they have been offended - I don't support Millan, which is why I was struck dumb when he approached me as we were passing each other. But I seem to be running out of ideas, as do others apparently. Robin has already flattened his dog walker fracturing her ribs on the first occasion ( doing his lunge act!) and then she received a bad wrist sprain another time.

I am simply getting desperate, if I give up on Robin it will break both our hearts, and there is a high chance he will be destroyed.

Life changes, our knowledge changes on a daily (minute by minute really) basis. I reach out to you all when I am desperate, I do not want to rescind my beautiful boy, he is sooooo good in every other way! I never had this trouble with the Borzoi bitch I had 50 years ago - bit younger and a bit fitter perhaps, you might think, and yes I was, but Robin is exponentially fast and that is the problem. When the breeder struggles, please give me some credit for stickability! However, when you are walking happily in one direction, then suddenly you are whisked off your feet and facing the opposite direction 4' away you must surely understand that is not normal? Am I missing something? Is there something that happens, before what happens happens?

 

[Feverfew]

There's always something that prompts a dog to 'take off', but my concern would be in terms of your safety and that of other people.
I assume the dog walker is reasonably fit and strong, so it is a big red flag if s/he has been pulled over.
One thing I know after 60 years of living and working with dogs is that there are no easy fixes or magic solutions for a dog that is strong, unpredictable and highly stimulated in the environment.
The bigger issue though is whether you are safe and whether people around you are safe when your dog is with you. If you are unable to physically stay upright and have some degree of control, surely it is only a matter of time before you or someone you encounter suffers a serious injury?

 

[JoanneF]

I didn't intend to offend you.

But a few things do stand out here. First, by nature of her gender, a bitch is likely to be smaller and not as strong as Robin. Second, 50 years ago suggests that now you are likely to be far less physically able to manage a dog like Robin. Third, he does sound like a dog that is quite - IDK, I'm going to have to choose my words carefully because I don't want to hurt your feelings - boisterous?

I don't know if there is a solution to your problem. I do know you have consulted with one of the best behaviourists in the UK. I also know you have been battling with this since you got Robin.

I think you have some hard choices to make.

If you are committed to (1) keeping him, and (2) staying safe, you can (3) drive to safe places where he can be off lead. I'd like to suggest (4) training; but it really feels like you have exhausted that and for whatever reasons it hasn't worked (not blaming, just stating where we are all at).

If any of these things can't be successfully achieved, your last option is to choose what to compromise on.

 

[Robins mum]

There's always something that prompts a dog to 'take off', but my concern would be in terms of your safety and that of other people.
I assume the dog walker is reasonably fit and strong, so it is a big red flag if s/he has been pulled over.
One thing I know after 60 years of living and working with dogs is that there are no easy fixes or magic solutions for a dog that is strong, unpredictable and highly stimulated in the environment.
The bigger issue though is whether you are safe and whether people around you are safe when your dog is with you. If you are unable to physically stay upright and have some degree of control, surely it is only a matter of time before you or someone you encounter suffers a serious injury?

and THAT, is why I keep asking for any new suggestions! This dog is far too wonderful to just give up and have him PTS! I cannot entrust him to anyone else for his safety and for others. If he caused an accident, I would never forgive myself, but this is the ONLY issue with this dog! He is loving and thoughtful, he knows to be gentle with me when playing and adjusts his play accordingly - how many dogs do you know that do that!? He has the ability to bite me hand right off, but he plays 'rough' with me and NEVER even marks me nor pulls me over, but see or suspect a cat or squirrel he does not stop to think Oh the dog walker is quite strong but she is only just a small person and she is a year older than me, she is nearly 72. I did wonder if I got a male person to walk him a few times up and down passing loads of cats and squirrels if that might help, but the ONLY other person that would walk him is someone I do not trust - nice chap but not able to understand dog behaviour ! We had an incident together when I said his rottie was going to attack Robin - he said it was fine and I ended up hiding in a kids play area and two of the 6 dogs he had with him tried to get to me and Robin, couldn't so turned on each other blood flying everywhere! Thank fully, Robin did as he was asked and sat quietly at my side. So currently there is no one other than Babs, and you guys, to help! This dog is a gentle giant, but yes, he is a danger because he just leaps off, he would NEVER intentially injure anyone! ...............

 

[Robins mum]

Have you tried a halti on Robin so you have more control...

Sorry Tinytom, I missed your post until just! Thank you for that, as far as I am aware the Halti is not good for the Borzoi because of the shape of the head. While it looks very similar to the greyhound, the skull is a slightly different shape, this infact is specifically there to give the breed more vision, and they apparently have 20% more visual range than any other breed - having the effect of seeing more things to chase after of course!

I'm bloody determined not to fail my boy come hell and high water I WILL get it right!