Control of my dog!

[Tinytom]

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Sorry Tinytom, I missed your post until just! Thank you for that, as far as I am aware the Halti is not good for the Borzoi because of the shape of the head. While it looks very similar to the greyhound, the skull is a slightly different shape, this infact is specifically there to give the breed more vision, and they apparently have 20% more visual range than any other breed - having the effect of seeing more things to chase after of course!

I'm bloody determined not to fail my boy come hell and high water I WILL get it right!

My friend uses haltis and gentle leaders on her borzois .....xx

 

[Feverfew]

There are three things I notice in your post. I hope you don't mind if I quote some of what you have said. This isn't intended as criticism, just to try and help you see things from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the background and who might meet you and Robin on a walk.

One is that you say 'I cannot entrust him to anyone else for his safety and for others. If he caused an accident, I would never forgive myself, but this is the ONLY issue with this dog!'. However, you already entrust him to an elderly dog walker who has been injured twice when walking with him. You say this risk of an accident is 'the only issue', but it is a very serious issue indeed. Your dog walker could have sustained much more serious injuries than cracked ribs - let's suppose she fractured her pelvis, hip or thigh bone. Or even her spine. I am speaking from a position of knowledge, because I have osteoporosis myself and am at a high risk of fracture, having suffered 6 fractures in the past 10 years (none involving dogs I am glad to say!)

Second, you say he plays very gently with you and has good bite inhibition, which is a very welcome characteristic in any dog. It is not uncommon, however, and is purely as a result of his mother and siblings teaching him that skill. It does not really say anything about his character, or how he might react if he caught some real prey (You would not see bite inhibition if he got hold of someone's cat, for example.)

Third, you say 'He is a danger because he just leaps off, he would NEVER intentionally injure anyone!' Whether Robin intends to injure someone is irrelevant: if he is large, strong and flighty, he can easily hurt someone because of his speed and unpredictability. There is no suggestion that Robin is aggressive (true aggression is very, very rare in dogs anyway), but that does not change the fact that his behaviour is putting everyone at risk, whether he 'intends' that or not.

Finally, from my perspective, I am not interested in solutions that rest on controlling dogs with equipment, treats, training, commands or whatever. These 'magic bullets' do nothing to increase a dog's understanding of the world we ask them to live in. My approach has always been to support the dog's natural abilities, and never to make excessive demands on them, in terms of expecting them to cope with situations that are too challenging for them.

As an example, my Romanian dog has superb inter-dog skills, but we very occasionally encounter dogs who do not have those skills, and that is very, very difficult for him. For example, if a dog approaches him head-on or looks directly at him, he goes into flight mode and hides (either behind me, or if there are shrubs, trees etc, among them). That means that I am very vigilant when we walk together, and we don't, for example, ever walk down narrow paths without escape routes. We have a selection of quiet walks, including some fields with cows, to whom he is unfailing polite (and always on lead of course.) We never go to busy parks or popular dog-walking spots.

I don't expect or ask him to get better at tolerating other dogs who don't behave politely: I understand where he's coming from and kind of agree with him about that. I just support him with my own behaviour, and he in turn has given me the greatest gift a dog can give: his trust.

 

[Robins mum]

My friend uses haltis and gentle leaders on her borzois .....xx

Really!? Well, I'm gonna give that a try then, because if I can get control of his head , then that should be the answer! Has your friend never had any problems with the Halti rubbing on the eyes? That was what I was told nearly a year ago! I'll be elated if I was given incorrect information in this instance!!!

This is one review and a major worry for me that because his lunge is unpredictable and split second response and so very powerful that he would be at risk of breaking his own neck?

"I must emphasise that that collar and indeed this Petsafe one, do not obstruct the dogs airways or prevent them from opening their mouths at all. So in that respect it’s safe and comfortable. It should also, consequently, not be used as a muzzle- that is not its function. It is only if your dog is especially stubborn and repeatedly disregards the discomfort of having its head snapped back to pull, that I would advise this be used with caution. I’m sure the danger to the dog (i.e. neck problems) is minimal to non-existent, but even so, I would say judge how your dog reacts and don’t persist if your dog seems the type not to learn the lesson that the head collar is designed to teach. In my experience some dogs can’t be taught with this and require more time-consuming teaching methods."

What are your thoughts please?

 

[Feverfew]

Just to add, that several solutions have been proposed in this thread, so my next question would be whether you have considered adopting any of them?
For example:,

• doing a 48-hour diary to pinpoint flashpoints
• adjusting the home environment to discourage reactivity to sound and sight
• having Robin on the lead in the garden so he can learn to be calm out there
• not allowing him to practise hunting by having him off lead where you are likely to encounter squirrels (eg public parks)
• choosing where to walk more carefully so you have options to divert from triggers
• using a halti or gentle leader
• considering rehomimg options.

 

[Robins mum]

Just to add, that several solutions have been proposed in this thread, so my next question would be whether you have considered adopting any of them?
For example:,

• doing a 48-hour diary to pinpoint flashpoints
• adjusting the home environment to discourage reactivity to sound and sight
• having Robin on the lead in the garden so he can learn to be calm out there
• not allowing him to practise hunting by having him off lead where you are likely to encounter squirrels (eg public parks)
• choosing where to walk more carefully so you have options to divert from triggers
• using a halti or gentle leader
• considering rehomimg options.

 

[Robins mum]

To be VERY clear :_

Robin is extremely well mannered on (and off) the lead 99.9% of the time, never pulls, unless desperate to go to the loo if he has been too long without a walk, as he is too polite to soil his own home, he is light to move around and happy to walk 'at heel' when requested - about 1% of the time, he will lunge after the said cats or squirrels or something that looks similar, about every single household here seems to have about 2 - 3 cats! Thankfully, not all out at the same time! When he does there is NO WARNING at all! one second we are walking quietly and happily the next second he has left the planet. When he finds the offending cat or squirrel, and he is unable too chase it any further (i.e. it is up the tree too high (and he has tried to climb a tree on more than one occasion! LOL) or the cat is cornered and will (can't run) anywhere else, Robin comes back to me (game over) immediately returning to his gentle calm state.

I cannot understand why the comment of 'not have him off the lead when likely to meet triggers' is in the equation? He is ON the lead when he takes off! THAT is the whole point! If he was off the lead I would not end up in the road would I!

I drive him out at least twice a day to a park that is completely fenced and properly gated so he can have some reasonable time for play in a relatively safe area, I try once a day for an on lead 30 minute walk, this is the danger zone, when he is on the lead and cats and squirels are every where. Nevertheless there have been many times we have NOT encountered a problem, it is not like EVERY day he takes off, as I have said, but that is due to thankfully not meeting a cat (or look alike) or squirrel! (these are my happy days!)

I always endeavour to keep Robin and everyone around as safe as I practicably can, but sadly life is not black and white and not consistant.

I have had several thoughts on the Halti and variants of this over the 2.7 months Robin has been in my care, I keep coming back to the volocity with which he unpredictably leaves my side! I think it might break his neck. You see there is NO predictability on this, it really does come out of the blue, it is like a dog waiting in the starting box - still, still, still - BANG! GONE!

Rehoming - great idea! I give my beautiful dog away to someone who may or most probably will have NO CLUE how unpredictable he is and they end up putting him down or possibly rough handling this gentle giant because they do not understand him, Robin pines away because they do not rehome very easily and he is very clear he knows who feeds and loves him. I just can't do that. Either I fix my problem or I have him put down, I want to fix this, which is why I keep coming back to this forum because the more input the better, I might just get the answer that works!

Robin is a wonderful, thoughtful, gentle, and loving dog, very bouncy of course, he is only a baby, but most folks fall in love with him! LOL Most of the time he does what is asked of him. He is such a happy dog, when he is loose and away from me, I can call him, stoop down and open my arms to him and he belts over with a big grin on his face! (not always of course! LOL) - I just need help of goodness knows what, to resolve this natural instinct play/chase bit. I would be mortified if he got hurt, or caused an accident, and I don't want to end up in Stoke hospital for weeks and weeks, unconscious and never going to be the same again !

Thanks for all your input and assistance, it really is wonderfully kind of you and everyone who has inputs on this difficulty, I know I sometimes sound like a crochety old bint, but that is my scared emotions coming out! I really, really, don't want to loose this young dog, simply through my inadequacies as a dog mummy.

 

[RGC]

“

Always pre-empt every issue that might arise and work round it so it NEVER arrises,

Any use?

 

[Tinytom]

It's not about you Jan its about Robin ...I know you must realise this but you have been asking us all the same questions and we have given you advice but you are still asking the same question...there is no way the Borzoi rescues would put Robin to sleep ...
Ask yourself honestly are you the right person for him ....as hard as it is
..or dont lead walk him again just take him in the car and let him into the park if that causes no problems...in todays world someone could make a serious complaint against Robin and yourself whilst walking and him lunging wether he means harm or not ...
I'm really not being mean just absolutely Honest

 

[Robins mum]

It's not about you Jan its about Robin ...I know you must realise this but you have been asking us all the same questions and we have given you advice but you are still asking the same question...there is no way the Borzoi rescues would put Robin to sleep ...
Ask yourself honestly are you the right person for him ....as hard as it is
..or dont lead walk him again just take him in the car and let him into the park if that causes no problems...in todays world someone could make a serious complaint against Robin and yourself whilst walking and him lunging wether he means harm or not ...
I'm really not being mean just absolutely Honest

I appreciate the honesty, and yes I am constantly asking the same question, as I previously stated we are continually learning and I hope that someone would somewhere have a suggestion that works! Constantly Robin and I are evolving and growing a stronger relationship. He is a good boy that is big and very high play drive, throwing a ball, or tugging a toy only last for a short while before he wants to zoom off and explore something! I need to be the fun toy that he wants to stay with but clearly I am not! Clearly I am not writing these posts very clearly because I keep hearing the same things suggested that I already have said I do - my son tells me I am very confusing (said that before too!)

There are some folks that have had dogs for a long time on this forum, that is why a came on here to get support and guidence with an off the charts dog.

 

[Tinytom]

I would not be able to cope with the deerhound pups in my 70s and I must admit I wouldn't have had a deerhound if I couldn't have two because they definitely wear each other out and are very strong dogs ...
Try the gentle leader ...most of the borzoi websites say they are great tools ..its collars for borzois that are tricky to master ...good luck

 

[Robins mum]

I would not be able to cope with the deerhound pups in my 70s and I must admit I wouldn't have had a deerhound if I couldn't have two because they definitely wear each other out and are very strong dogs ...
Try the gentle leader ...most of the borzoi websites say they are great tools ..its collars for borzois that are tricky to master ...good luck

- Ive just contacted another trainer - guess what ! He LOVES the Borzoi! fingers crossed!

 

[Robins mum]

Thanks JudyN; that is very useful to know. I was wondering how big/strong Robin is and his genetic background. I get what you are saying (having always favoured sighthounds myself), but I would also add that although genetics and function do clearly play a part, physiology does not differ significantly across breeds, whatever the source of arousal. Memory, habit and personality also play a huge role in how excitable dogs become. And of course the behaviour of the person with the dog, and any other dogs that are around.
What I'm saying is there are loads of factors influencing a dog's outward behaviour.

To Robin's mum, it really comes down to how big a problem it is for you. You say everything is ok the majority of the time and 80% of the time he is fine - that's true for many dogs and their owners, probably. For me, if a dog chases things down or around the garden, it's a big event, and I wouldn't have the dog on his own in the garden or, initially, off a long line in the garden if that were the case. For example, when I first arrived at this house, which has a medium-sized garden, my two dogs were on harnesses and leads every single time we went in the garden and they were never left out there alone. Why? Because the garden was too stimulating for them (lots of wildlife/cats/birds/foxes around, so lots of alert body language, and sometimes barking and hunting). We did the long lines, accompanied garden visits for 12-18 months, gradually removing the long lines once we were out there. Always the emphasis is on 'take your time, let's relax out here, nothing to worry about'.

They both wander in and out of the garden now, and my Carpathian Shepherd particularly likes to lie on the patio and watch the wildlife. That includes observing the foxes (the communication between him and the foxes is just extraordinary to watch). (His genetics are livestock guarding, so that's not entirely surprising.) I'd be the first to say that has been a lot of work and patience, which is why I say it depends how much of a problem it is for you.

physiology does not differ significantly across breeds, totally agree, but are you aware that the Borzoi has a much narrower skull and this design gives them 20% more visual range than all the other sighthounds! That is one of the reasons the Borzoi is the top of the hound list (aparently)

 

[Robins mum]

physiology does not differ significantly across breeds, totally agree, but are you aware that the Borzoi has a much narrower skull and this design gives them 20% more visual range than all the other sighthounds! That is one of the reasons the Borzoi is the top of the hound list (aparently)

Plus collars keep falling off their heads! LOL!!

 

[Feverfew]

physiology does not differ significantly across breeds, totally agree, but are you aware that the Borzoi has a much narrower skull and this design gives them 20% more visual range than all the other sighthounds! That is one of the reasons the Borzoi is the top of the hound list (aparently)

You are describing anatomy. Physiology relates to the basic cellular function of the body at molecular and hormonal levels, and in that instance, there is not much difference across breeds.
Yes, borzois and other sighthounds have certain physical characteristics, but in terms of personality, I find that they vary as much as any other breed does. My main experience with them is actually as a vet nurse, as they are prone to some serious health conditions (bloat, especially) and (like most sighthounds) poor dental health.

 

[Robins mum]

You are describing anatomy. Physiology relates to the basic cellular function of the body at molecular and hormonal levels, and in that instance, there is not much difference across breeds.
Yes, borzois and other sighthounds have certain physical characteristics, but in terms of personality, I find that they vary as much as any other breed does. My main experience with them is actually as a vet nurse, as they are prone to some serious health conditions (bloat, especially) and (like most sighthounds) poor dental health.

I understand the physiology has a massive impact - not only on dogs but every living thing! How you can say that there is not much difference does shock me! DIET DIET DIET! makes a MASSIVE difference! - to every living being!

 

[Feverfew]

I understand the physiology has a massive impact - not only on dogs but every living thing! How you can say that there is not much difference does shock me! DIET DIET DIET! makes a MASSIVE difference! - to every living being!

You are misrepresenting what I wrote.
I said that physiology is more or less the same across a species. I didn't say anything particularly about its impact, beyond the observation that it functions in similar ways in all breeds.
Anatomy is obviously very different, particularly in dogs because of years of breeding for various different human purposes.
I didn't even mention diet. I agree that diet is significant, but nothing in my post suggested that I thought otherwise!

 

[Robins mum]

You are misrepresenting what I wrote.
I said that physiology is more or less the same across a species. I didn't say anything particularly about its impact, beyond the observation that it functions in similar ways in all breeds.
Anatomy is obviously very different, particularly in dogs because of years of breeding for various different human purposes.
I didn't even mention diet. I agree that diet is significant, but nothing in my post suggested that I thought otherwise!

I was commenting on your post and adding that information - that I feel is VERY relevant