Cryptorchids (talk-in)

[Judy]

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if 2 dogs produce one dog with no testicals, one dog with only one testical and a bitch then ALL them dogs will be carriers of this gene and should not be allowed to breed in the future, and repeat mating of this mother and father SHOULD NOT be used either!!
has the KC/whippet club thought about the bitches (litter sisters/mothers) to these mono/crypto dogs aswell? as they are faulty gene carriers too, it's not just the studs used.

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Just from what I can glean - The exact mode of inheritance isn't actually know yet but most modern day geneticists seem to be agreeing that what its probably not is a simple recessive gene involving only one gene pair. If it did it would be more simple to eradicate. This means you can't tell with any certainty by looking at a pedigree, who is a carrier and who isn't. It might, but it doesn't necessarily follow that all the littermates of a cryptorchid would pass on the gene. You can only really guess at the likelihood.

But if you assumed that it has come from both sides and is a simple recessive gene, which isn't necessarily the case, then the littermates and all close relations, including parents, uncle, aunts, cousins and grandparents should be removed from the gene pool. This would fix the problem really quickly but it reduces the gene pool so dramatically that it does more harm than good as other faults then become prevalent. I shouldn't think that there are any pedigrees that don't contain a dog or bitch that hasn't had a cryptorchid relation.

The normal approach in these situations seems to be to reduce the incidence more slowly by only removing affected dogs from the gene pool. This only reduces the problem very slowly but left unchecked, the problem could get worse very quickly.

 

[sue greenwood]

It's not just down to the Whippet club and WCRA, it's down to all clubs to encourage their members to follow the rules we are given. Anyone thinking they can get around the rules should expect to accept the consequences of their actions. Even if that means they can no longer race. We should enjoy the dogs we have and make every effort not to spoil the breed for future racers

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Are you saying Sue that you won't allow cryptorchid unpassported dogs to race at The Northern?

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I always thought passport were for opens and champs so that other clubs know who they are up against :- " . I always think of our club as a fun place to be where all whippets have a good time.

Unpassported whippets whether bitch or dog can't run at anyones open or is your club running under different rules. :- "

 

[sue greenwood]

>Are you saying Sue that you won't allow cryptorchid unpassported dogs to race at The Northern?
I didn't mean that quite as it sounds.  I was wondering after your other post about not allowing cryptorchid dogs passports at all because of the loopholes.  (That was my interpretation of what you were saying and could well be wrong). 

If someone doesn't intend to passport their dogs to run in opens is it your viewpoint that the same restrictions should apply to non passported club raced dogs.

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Sorry missed this, misunderstood. Not having a go. When i put about passported dogs i was thinking of opens and champs not club. I hope everyone just follows the rules but i am sure some out there will try to get around them. That is not a slight on the racing community but an unfortunate sign of the times.Where the club is concerned we welcome all whippets because we enjoy our Sundays at the club and want others to join in. :cheers:

 

[BeeJay]

>Are you saying Sue that you won't allow cryptorchid unpassported dogs to race at The Northern?
I didn't mean that quite as it sounds.  I was wondering after your other post about not allowing cryptorchid dogs passports at all because of the loopholes.  (That was my interpretation of what you were saying and could well be wrong). 

If someone doesn't intend to passport their dogs to run in opens is it your viewpoint that the same restrictions should apply to non passported club raced dogs.

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Sorry missed this, misunderstood. Not having a go. When i put about passported dogs i was thinking of opens and champs not club. I hope everyone just follows the rules but i am sure some out there will try to get around them. That is not a slight on the racing community but an unfortunate sign of the times.Where the club is concerned we welcome all whippets because we enjoy our Sundays at the club and want others to join in. :cheers:

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That's what I was I asking you to clarify. Because you were talking about clubs taking the lead etc. The problem about making rules is that there will always be some folks who try to find a way around them. As this new ruling will ONLY apply to passported dogs then it's feasible that non endorsed/non castrated cryptorchid dogs could end up racing at club level and of course at certain opens where passports need not be shown.

 

[Joanna]

20 or so years ago, it was fairly acceptable to smoke in most public spaces, and even offices and hospitals had designated smoking areas. Within a relatively short period of time, smoking has become socially unacceptable, and two major reasons for this are health, and public perception of the practice. I truly believe that once an issue has been raised, and there is even the meerest whisper of morality, human nature will apply its own pressures to lessen the problem. I would imagine that the amount of people using cryptorchid studs will decrease quite quickly as they will have to risk being unable to sell the litter and/or risk being the subject of disapproval now that the problem is well and truly out in the public arena.

I agree with Longdog who says common sense will prevail, I absolutely believe the majority of people will succomb to peer-group pressure sooner rather than later.

 

[michele]

Hi i have just read this thread from start to finish and can't understand why most people are so adamant that the monorchid / cryptorchid dogs are to blame and therefore should be eradicated.

Having researched this phenomenon for a few years now i am under a different opinion.

There are only 2 pure bred pedigree breeds of dogs on the Planet ( The Grey and Red Wolf ) and every other breed either natural ( ie African Wild Dog, Australian Dingo, Coyote etc.)or man made breeds have all descended from these. And if they can have this trait through evolution then surely the man made breeds must

follow.

Now then WHY JUST THE DOGS???????

The reason for this is quite simply that because the testes of the dogs are clearly visible being that they are on the outside then people obviously think that it is only a dog problem but infact this is simply NOT TRUE.

Bitches suffer from the exact same condition but because their genitalia are hidden from view inside the body some people try to deny this but SORRY ITS TRUE and therefore it maybe that they are the carriers which would explain why dogs who are entire can somehow produce these pups even though there is no history of it in there gene pool, and could explain why in test cases mono and cryptorchid dogs were found to produce perfectly entire pups to other bitches.

But the questions that i would like to get and answer to are-

1/ What do breeders intend to do with mono/cryptochid pups that they breed??

2/ Will it ultimately lead to people only breeding for bitches as they seem to be a safe bet ??

3/ And as i already stated this problem is not only a Whippet one it is in almost every breed of animal.

Including MAN my husband suffered from this and he was never told he could not breed and we have 2 perfect sons who are both entire and very athletic both being exeptional fast and gifted football players. OH I HAVE JUST HAD A TERRIBLE THOUGHT.

4/ What would these people on here have said to my husband and i about his condition would you have thought us immoral to even think of having a family.??

5/ Or is it different for dogs because they are just animals and they will decide what is best for them not nature SHE makes far to many mistakes not like us humans.??

Iwas glad to read the comments of CYMRO in the WHIPPET NEWS to see that this man who has been directly involved with WHIPPETS AND RACING for many years and i am sure that he bases his facts on his experience. Thanks for your common sense approach.

lastly what i am about to say is maybe going to appear confrontational but there is another human factor which could be behind some of the people on here's thinking

and that is JEALOUSY and this is because this condition is the perfect criteria to have a swipe at another more successefull breeders, so that they can start malicious rumours so as to try to get people to come and use theie stud dogs instead. I am really sorry to point this out but i do not know anybody on here personally so it may be better that i make people aware of this and not people who do know each other and start fueds between friends. I HOPE THAT THIS IS NOT THE CASE BUT IT IS SOMETHING THAT WE MUST ALL BE AWARE OFF.

There is no hard evidence to support the HEREDITY GENE to being the cause of this but it should not be ruled out all together but there are 2 other reasons which their is hard evidence 1/ is that the sperm tube is for some reason not long enough or is twisted and therefore the testes cannot reach the scrotum and 2/ that the cremaster muscle in the dog is somehow not formed properly and again does not let the testes stay in the scrotum as it grows both of these conditions can also cause the testes to go up and down into the scrotum and if it grows to quickly and gets trapped before it can descend again then it will remain there.

Both of these latter 2 conditions if in humans would easily be rectified with simple surgery and inthe case of athletes would never stop them from racing whether they had surgery or not and no one would ever criticise them or try to stop them from running but then they are not just dogs are they????

ANYWAY I JUST HOPE THAT EDUCATING PEOPLE ABOUT THESE FACTS MAY STOP THE ENEVITABLE DECIMATION OF THE BREED AND STOP PERFECTLY HEALTHY DOGS FROM RACING AND COMPETING AS AFTER ALL THEY DID NOT ASK TO BE HERE BUT THE BUCK STOPS HERE AND WE MUST TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR ACTIONS AND REALLISE THAT WE ARE AS MUCH TO BLAME BUT ALSO THIS PROBLEM EXISTS IN MOST OF THE ANIMAL KINGDOM NOT JUSTDOGS.........

I HAVE NOT WROTE THIS TO OFFEND ANYONE JUST TO INFORM .........XXXXXXX

 

[Seraphina]

Just from what I can glean - The exact mode of inheritance isn't actually know yet but most modern day geneticists seem to be agreeing that what its probably not is a simple recessive gene involving only one gene pair. If it did it would be more simple to eradicate. This means you can't tell with any certainty by looking at a pedigree, who is a carrier and who isn't. It might, but it doesn't necessarily follow that all the littermates of a cryptorchid would pass on the gene. You can only really guess at the likelihood.

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The problem is that testicle/s may not descend for different resons; too short cord, it is too big to fit though the opening or the appropriate hormons, which trigger the descent just did not kick in. So it is very likely that it is be caused by different genes in different dogs. It is definitely not simple recessive inheritance. There is also the suggestion it may be caused by gene on the Y chromosome, so it has nothing to do with the bitch. The fact is that in show lines there have been some lot used sires who seem to produce large number of monorchids from different bitches. But which ever way it is inherited, more inbred line more likely it will become widespread problem. Just like with any inherited problem.

It does happen in human male, but is not considered a problem, because the man is not going to have children with close relative, so it is not likely to be a problem for his children.

I have not had a problem with testicles in my dogs, and I was very smug when few years ago i had a litter with 3 boys and all balls down by day 2 after birth. And they were nice big healthy testes, none of this up and down business. So imagine my shock and horror when one of the owners contacted me 12 months later to tell me he had the dog castrated and he was a bi-lateral cryptorchid!!! (w00t) He got the pup at about 11 weeks, and apparently when he took him to be vaccinated the vet noticed he did not have them. Unfortunately, they did not call me, i would have liked to see exactly where they were. From then on I get my vet cerify that both testicles are down when i have the pups checked and vaccinated.

 

[Seraphina]

Bitches suffer from the exact same condition but because their genitalia are hidden from view inside the body some people try to deny this but SORRY ITS TRUE and therefore it maybe that they are the carriers which would explain why dogs who are entire can somehow produce these pups even though there is no history of it in there gene pool, and could explain why in test cases mono and cryptorchid dogs were found to produce perfectly entire pups to other bitches.

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What condition is that?

There is no hard evidence to support the HEREDITY GENE to being the cause of this but it should not be ruled out all together but there are 2 other reasons which their is hard evidence 1/ is that the sperm tube is for some reason not long enough or is twisted and therefore the testes cannot reach the scrotum and 2/ that the cremaster muscle in the dog is somehow not formed properly and again does not let the testes stay in the scrotum as it grows both of these conditions can also cause the testes to go up and down into the scrotum and if it grows to quickly and gets trapped before it can descend again then it will remain there.

Everything in our body is created by our genes, so if something is not long enough or deformed it has something to do with genes.

 

[Joanna]

Just from what I can glean - The exact mode of inheritance isn't actually know yet but most modern day geneticists seem to be agreeing that what its probably not is a simple recessive gene involving only one gene pair. If it did it would be more simple to eradicate. This means you can't tell with any certainty by looking at a pedigree, who is a carrier and who isn't. It might, but it doesn't necessarily follow that all the littermates of a cryptorchid would pass on the gene. You can only really guess at the likelihood.

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The problem is that testicle/s may not descend for different resons; too short cord, it is too big to fit though the opening or the appropriate hormons, which trigger the descent just did not kick in. So it is very likely that it is be caused by different genes in different dogs. It is definitely not simple recessive inheritance. There is also the suggestion it may be caused by gene on the Y chromosome, so it has nothing to do with the bitch. The fact is that in show lines there have been some lot used sires who seem to produce large number of monorchids from different bitches. But which ever way it is inherited, more inbred line more likely it will become widespread problem. Just like with any inherited problem.

It does happen in human male, but is not considered a problem, because the man is not going to have children with close relative, so it is not likely to be a problem for his children.

I have not had a problem with testicles in my dogs, and I was very smug when few years ago i had a litter with 3 boys and all balls down by day 2 after birth. And they were nice big healthy testes, none of this up and down business. So imagine my shock and horror when one of the owners contacted me 12 months later to tell me he had the dog castrated and he was a bi-lateral cryptorchid!!! (w00t) He got the pup at about 11 weeks, and apparently when he took him to be vaccinated the vet noticed he did not have them. Unfortunately, they did not call me, i would have liked to see exactly where they were. From then on I get my vet cerify that both testicles are down when i have the pups checked and vaccinated.

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ANYWAY I JUST HOPE THAT EDUCATING PEOPLE ABOUT THESE FACTS MAY STOP THE ENEVITABLE DECIMATION OF THE BREED AND STOP PERFECTLY HEALTHY DOGS FROM RACING AND COMPETING AS

Crytorchid/Monorchid dogs will be able to compete and gain a passport as long as they are either castrated or have their KC registration endorsed (so their progeny cannot be registered).

This is a step in the right direction. Do you think it is better to ignore a fault which we can reduce with a few simple steps? We must not forget the distress these animals can suffer with a retained testicle which can pull when running. Also the risk of cancer is increased, do we ignore that?

 

[BeeJay]

Once it was decided to try to do something about the 'problem' the WCRA and Whippet Club had to look at what they could do legally.

In order to have the KC support their actions the ONLY way this could happen without there being a legal challenge to it was to bring into racing rules this from the breed standard. 'Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum'.

The new inclusion comes under/within the rule regarding the granting of passports which at the moment only mentions the dogs having to have an acceptable 5 gen pedigree.

That's why it only affects dogs and not bitches, and why it doesn't affect dogs who already have passports.

 

[michele]

cryptorchidism.htm

Bitches suffer from the exact same condition but because their genitalia are hidden from view inside the body some people try to deny this but SORRY ITS TRUE and therefore it maybe that they are the carriers which would explain why dogs who are entire can somehow produce these pups even though there is no history of it in there gene pool, and could explain why in test cases mono and cryptorchid dogs were found to produce perfectly entire pups to other bitches.

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What conditio

There is no hard evidence to support the HEREDITY GENE to being the cause of this but it should not be ruled out all together but there are 2 other reasons which their is hard evidence 1/ is that the sperm tube is for some reason not long enough or is twisted and therefore the testes cannot reach the scrotum and 2/ that the cremaster muscle in the dog is somehow not formed properly and again does not let the testes stay in the scrotum as it grows both of these conditions can also cause the testes to go up and down into the scrotum and if it grows to quickly and gets trapped before it can descend again then it will remain there.

Everything in our body is created by our genes, so if something is not long enough or deformed it has something to do with genes.

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Please read this Reference ( as long as i do it right ) and hopefully it will help you understand what i am saying if you need me to there are about another 10 site which All agree that it is in dogs as well as bitches and to brand one and not the other then that is simply UNFAIR...

 

[Seraphina]

Yes, i do know this genetic disorders site, the same site also says that Whippets have following inherited disorders;

Cataracts, Color dilution alopecia, Ectodermal defect, Pattern baldness, Corneal dystrophy, Progressive retinal atrophy and von Willebrand's disease, no mention of AI desease or heart problems.

You said it yourself; cryptorchidism can be caused by diffent problems. Short cord would be caused by different gene to incompetent ring.