Disqualifications

[Rob Rixon]

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We have had the problem of dogs fighting while racing since racing was started so it is not a new problem.

However, the actions taken to eliminate those who fight seem to be continually changing. I know when I was involved in handling the Disqualifications list and informing all the affiliated club secrectaries at that time it was a lot of work and resulted in my writing 17 letters on most Mondays (thank god for word processing) with either an addition or reduction on the list. But I considered it worth while!

I'm sure the ruling was at that time - roughly -

Get disqualified at an Open and your dog is out until the Monday after the next WCRA champs.

Get disqualified again and your dog's passport is suspended for a year (ie until after the next 4 champs)

Get disqualified a third time and your dog looses its passport!

From my experience owners were so concerned about the the consequences of loosing their dog's passports - none lost their passports! As they either sorted their fighter out, retired it or when on to run at non-passported events.

This puts the onus back on the owner to make sure their dog was ok to run. We all understand that an owner does not wish their dog to fight and get disqualified but some of the responsibility has to be put back on the owner. Remember for every owner unhappy that their dog has been disqualified there is an unhappy owners with a dog that may have been injured as a result of the fighting and a series of unhappy owners who dogs will have to re-run the race.

Organising 4 dog official clearing trials and handling the associated paperwork may sound ok but why should we all go to this trouble? Put that burden back with the owner of the fighting dog!

Its about time that any consistantly fighting animal was stopped from running at Opens! To make sure this problem is sorted out the 'powers that be' have to grasp the nettle' so that we can stop this problem from continuing.

One of the advantages of having a passporting system is not only the expertise of others checking breeding but the ability to eliminate fighters at all affiliated clubs. What do you think - give me some ammo from an article in WN.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Get disqualified a third time and your dog looses its passport!

I had varying storys about that rule, I was told years ago that was the rule but then a WCRA Secretary about 7 years ago told me it was never actualy a rule?.

One of the advantages of having a passporting system is not only the expertise of others checking breeding but the ability to eliminate fighters at all affiliated clubs. What do you think

IMO theres no place in racing for persistant fighters, OK a dog may have a go (out of Charecter) for many reasons slight injurie ect but a persistant fighter should have its passport removed that way owners would be more inclined to get them sorted or at least try rather than ruining races and potentialy injuring other peoples dogs.

 

[Judy]

I'm sure the ruling was at that time - roughly -Get disqualified at an Open and your dog is out until the Monday after the next WCRA champs.

Get disqualified again and your dog's passport is suspended for a year (ie until after the next 4 champs)

Get disqualified a third time and your dog looses its passport!

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The oldest set of WCRA rules I could readily put my hands on are dated 1996 and they just say

"A suspended whippet will only be eligible to participate at a race meeting where WCRA passports are a requirement of entry, after having been suspended for 7 days, it has run without fighting not less than three consecutive trials at its home club, in which at least three whippets take part, such whippets being as far as possible of the same class as that of the suspended whippet. The WCRA committee reserves the right to withold reinstatement to any whippet who is, or has shown itself to be a confirmed fighter."

These may be from 1996 but I am pretty certain that that bit hadn't been changed for years at that point, at least not since we've been racing. I've heard people quote the "three strikes and you're out" rule for years but its been a myth , if widely believed, for all of that time at least. Having said that Rob has been racing longer than us and might be remembering even older rules. Not that I'm calling you old Rob

From my experience, every time a dog gets disqualified, if you ask 10 people who were there, what they saw, 4 will say the dog was guilty, 4 will say nothing happened - it was just bumping and 2 will say it was the other dog's fault! I've never know everyone to agree. Not ever. Not once!

I just think that the fact that any decision to disqualify is always arguable (and always argued about) should be taken into account before we go about banning dogs for long periods of time. Also if a dog has been disqualified a couple of time it seems to automatically gets the blame for every incident thereafter.

Having said that, dogs that have a go are a real nuisance and can cause a lot of ill feeling but we should be careful not to be too heavy handed because thats going to cause even bigger rows, especially if it means a dog being disqualified for a whole year.

On the other hand it would be a deterrent to anyone running a dog they know to be dodgy.

Or judges might be more reluctant to disqualify a dog in the first place if we raise the stakes too much.

Regarding causing injury, do they really cause more injury than a dog that has bumped another dog unintentionally? Maybe, I'm not sure.

I'm sure we're going to get a lot of different views on this one.

 

[lynxexpress]

I'm sure the ruling was at that time - roughly -Get disqualified at an Open and your dog is out until the Monday after the next WCRA champs.

Get disqualified again and your dog's passport is suspended for a year (ie until after the next 4 champs)

Get disqualified a third time and your dog looses its passport!

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The oldest set of WCRA rules I could readily put my hands on are dated 1996 and they just say

"A suspended whippet will only be eligible to participate at a race meeting where WCRA passports are a requirement of entry, after having been suspended for 7 days, it has run without fighting not less than three consecutive trials at its home club, in which at least three whippets take part, such whippets being as far as possible of the same class as that of the suspended whippet. The WCRA committee reserves the right to withold reinstatement to any whippet who is, or has shown itself to be a confirmed fighter."

These may be from 1996 but I am pretty certain that that bit hadn't been changed for years at that point, at least not since we've been racing. I've heard people quote the "three strikes and you're out" rule for years but its been a myth , if widely believed, for all of that time at least. Having said that Rob has been racing longer than us and might be remembering even older rules. Not that I'm calling you old Rob

From my experience, every time a dog gets disqualified, if you ask 10 people who were there, what they saw, 4 will say the dog was guilty, 4 will say nothing happened - it was just bumping and 2 will say it was the other dog's fault! I've never know everyone to agree. Not ever. Not once!

I just think that the fact that any decision to disqualify is always arguable (and always argued about) should be taken into account before we go about banning dogs for long periods of time. Also if a dog has been disqualified a couple of time it seems to automatically gets the blame for every incident thereafter.

Having said that, dogs that have a go are a real nuisance and can cause a lot of ill feeling but we should be careful not to be too heavy handed because thats going to cause even bigger rows, especially if it means a dog being disqualified for a whole year.

On the other hand it would be a deterrent to anyone running a dog they know to be dodgy.

Or judges might be more reluctant to disqualify a dog in the first place if we raise the stakes too much.

Regarding causing injury, do they really cause more injury than a dog that has bumped another dog unintentionally? Maybe, I'm not sure.

I'm sure we're going to get a lot of different views on this one.

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I agree with you Judy but the thing is people these days do not want to be half way judges because if you say a dog had a go the officials are not very keen to do anything about it and at the end of the day it is a very unthankful job.

 

[finalez]

We've had a dog in the passed which has had a tendency to "have a go" and have witnessed her doing so, she would run clean for several meetings but if challenged she would sometimes turn her head,but also she did use to "yip" all the way which was on a couple of times misinterpreted as "having a go" After being disqualified for this we were told of the terms of clearence:that she would have to race 3 seperate trials,mimicking the race in which she had been disqualified as close as possible to be set by the race manager and our club secretary,if these were successful she would then be cleared for racing. This we had to do at an open as it was in the height of the open season and club meetings were sparse and we also had other dogs racing at the opens.

Finding 3 dogs 3 times over at an open is not an easy task,also by the 3rd race she was " doomed to faliure" as she was on her 3rd run and the others on thier 1st,and as expected yes she turned.

I know that disqualified dogs since that time have not had to follow this path and although I would not wish it on any dog I do think that after more than 1 disqualification the dog should attend more than a clearing trial at its home ground before it be allowed on the open scene.

We never raced ours again due to the unfairness it put on fellow race dogs in her races,eg re runs etc.

This is only my experience and opinion!!

 

[Joanna]

Having read and re-read the WCRA rules on disqualification, it appears that whereas there is a set of criteria for re-clearing a disqualified dog, the WCRA can withdraw a passport if they deem it appropriate at any time.

I am not sure I would want any whippet of mine taking the clearing trial at the Open option, as Les says, the dog may be having an off day, be injured, tired, etc This option is now only available once, but I think I would rather plump for the going back to basics route and take a little time to work on the issues surrounding the head turning/ "having a go".

Is it possible that some dogs can "get a bad name" and should we be very careful about disqualifying? May-be, there should be more than one half-way judge on the open circuit all stood in the same place echoing the line system. That way a 2/1 majority would decide the fate of the dog, and eliminate bad feeling/doubt from both sides?

Just a thought

 

[Mark Roberts]

May-be, there should be more than one half-way judge on the open circuit all stood in the same place echoing the line system

in anm ideal world that would be perfect even better have the race recorded that was the Racing Manager.owner could view it together and then it would be 100% wether a dog had fought.

BUT in the world we live in most clubs/champs struggle to get 1 half way judge let alone three due to them being worried about upsettings freinds and even worse recieving a barrage of abuse from a Disqaulified dogs owner. (YES IT DOES HAPPEN)

 

[Joanna]

May-be, there should be more than one half-way judge on the open circuit all stood in the same place echoing the line system

in anm ideal world that would be perfect even better have the race recorded that was the Racing Manager.owner could view it together and then it would be 100% wether a dog had fought.

BUT in the world we live in most clubs/champs struggle to get 1 half way judge let alone three due to them being worried about upsettings freinds and even worse recieving a barrage of abuse from a Disqaulified dogs owner. (YES IT DOES HAPPEN)

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Having three would stop the pressure on a single judge, and let's face it Mark, it is up to all of us to help out at Open events. It seems to be the same people helping every time, so perhaps at the beginning of an Open, if a full quota of officials is not present, racing will not commence until volunteers come forward! As for a barrage of abuse, if such an incident occurs, let's introduce a red card system, an owner who displays such behaviour should be banned from attending passported events for 3 months! Totally unacceptable :rant:

 

[Mark Roberts]

i've recieved abuse on more than 1 occasion while acting as a 1/2 was or line judge.

the problem is everyone is there to run their dogs and see it as the job of the home club to provide the officials.?

unfortunatly some clubs arnt big enough to provide all their own workers and so need help but not enough offer.

But in saying that most just dont want the hassle involved.

 

[IanGerman]

It is certainly a thankless task race judging, and you can't blame people for not volunteering. I'd like to point out to people who complain when a decision goes against them that without volunteers in ALL areas of the sport there would BE no sport. But I expect that would fall on deaf ears too.

When I started racing years ago with East Anglia I was shocked to discover that what the rules call "fighting" the club interpreted, as I thought, quite differently. The rules at the time were that a dog is considered to be fighting if it turns it's head towards another dog (sometimes accompanied by a bark at the same time.)

That, to me, seemed extreme, but as a newcomer I accepted that those were the rules, and when halfway judging myself later on applied the same criteria. I have had dogs of mine dq'd for this kind of offence, as well as a full scale assault by one of the few large dogs I have had, who overtook, then stopped and waited for the rest to catch up before jumping them! (RIP Bobby)

But we have to be careful not to make punishments too draconian. We are a small, minority sport and need all the personel we can get - warning off someone's dog for a year could well lose the owner too. In the greyhound world of course, dogs with this trait don't get too many chances - 2 if I remember rightly - before being thrown on the scrapheap. But their numbers are vastly greater than ours and owners far more indiscriminate about unraceable dogs (don't get me started on end-of-career greyhounds!) They just shunt the dog off to someone or somewhere where controls are fewer and buy themselves another pup. We can't and wouldn't want it to be - that way in OUR sport.

And it's not as if dogs can be trained not to do it - as anyone who witnessed my 5 years of trying to get Lisa to race will testify to (the fact that she DOES race may give lie to this statement but I can honestly say it was HER who gave up nobbling, not ME who persuaded her to!)

What I'd like to see produced - hopefully with WCRA assistance if necessary - is a DVD with examples from races that can be used as a training tool for ALL racing people - not just potential judges. Let's all be shown what is allowable and what isn't as a lesson for the future. It won't cover every eventuality of course, but it will add some clarity on what at times can be a prickly subject.

 

[BeeJay]

>What I'd like to see produced - hopefully with WCRA assistance if necessary - is a DVD with examples from races that can be used as a training tool for ALL racing people - not just potential judges. Let's all be shown what is allowable and what isn't as a lesson for the future. It won't cover every eventuality of course, but it will add some clarity on what at times can be a prickly subject

Yep I'd like to see this done.

 

[Judy]

Nice idea but is that really practical? It would probably have to be movies, not stills which can be misleading, and would entail someone being able to be at the right place at the right time to get enough shots of interfering taking place. They would have to be close enough to be really clear what's happening as well. Unless some of our dogs get Equity cards 8) it might take quite a long time to make.

 

[June Jonigk]

I think mostly the problem we have is that some owners who have dogs that turn, are not seen to do anything about it. They just have three lucky trials and hey presto! a racing dog again. People get very angry, myself included, when a dog keeps getting cleared, and then comes back and knobbles your dog. A racing whippet at full speed getting pushed right across the track is almost bound to suffer some injury, and that's what these owners are forgetting.

I hope I never have a problem dog, but one thing is for sure - If I had one, I would not enter an open with it until I was sure it would run clean.

When my little Dangermouse was first racing, she was tackled by another club dog, and retaliated. When she next raced I saw her look across at another dog, she didn't turn her head, but I thought she looked like she might. We ran her in blinkers for the first half of the season, just to prevent anything untoward happening. She didn't run her best with them on, and everyone probably noticed she wore them, but she has never put a foot wrong, and never been disqualified. I was wary that people may mark her down as a fighter, but I think prevention is better than cure, and I never wanted her to get a taste for fighting others.

She's 9 and a half now, and has been an angel to race, and although she thinks she's still a puppy, she will retire in October when she is 10. I don't think she will get in an open as a 10 year old - that would have been nice :wub:

 

[Joanna]

I think mostly the problem we have is that some owners who have dogs that turn, are not seen to do anything about it.  They just have three lucky trials and hey presto! a racing dog again.  People get very angry, myself included, when a dog keeps getting cleared, and then comes back and knobbles your dog.  A racing whippet at full speed getting pushed right across the track is almost bound to suffer some injury, and that's what these owners are forgetting.
I hope I never have a problem dog, but one thing is for sure - If I had one, I would not enter an open with it until I was sure it would run clean.

When my little Dangermouse was first racing, she was tackled by another club dog, and retaliated.  When she next raced I saw her look across at another dog, she didn't turn her head, but I thought she looked like she might.  We ran her in blinkers for the first half of the season, just to prevent anything untoward happening.  She didn't run her best with them on, and everyone probably noticed she wore them, but she has never put a foot wrong, and never been disqualified.  I was wary that people may mark her down as a fighter, but I think prevention is better than cure, and I never wanted her to get a taste for fighting others.

Gawd bless her June :wub:

She's 9 and a half now, and has been an angel to race, and although she thinks she's still a puppy, she will retire in October when she is 10.  I don't think she will get in an open as a 10 year old - that would have been nice :wub:

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[SIZE=14pt]Gawd bless her June :wub: [/SIZE]

 

[IanGerman]

it might take quite a long time to make

We've already HAD a long time! But yes, I agree it could take a while to get something meaningful edited down. However if someone with the expertise and willingness to at least try (and suitable equipment of course) was to video Opens and Champs meetings for a season I'm pretty sure there would be some examples that could be used. )

And off-topic but picking up from what June said in her post ..... I thought that a dog that was 9 at the start of the season could continue racing until the season's end even if he/she turned 10 during that season. Yes? No?

 

[billyboy45]

At least most Whippet people will give the offender a chance to rightify its-self.In the greyhound world,this doesnt happen so much.My own bitch was the victom of an attack 2 weeks ago.Which could have been a bad one.She was 5 lengths clear ,at the third bend.But as is her way of running,she slackens off at the bend's,and everything else catches up to her.Then she accelorates away again,coming off the bend.But on this night,the 1 dog came at her with only one thing on his mind,and drove her right out over the hair rail,and then continued to have a go,for the rest of the race.Unfortunately everything else was at this stage ,about 30 lengths in front of them and i had been robbed once again ,by a dog that shouldnt have been running,as he was prone to fighting.But at some track's you get away with anything.My bitch was pretty stiff n sore the next morning,and i had to give her plenty of massaging for a few day's,with a good mussle rub.The offending dog,as far as i could make out,was'nt even going to make it back to its kennel,and would have been P.T.S,before morning.That is where the difference is, between whippet or lurcher owner's, and greyhound men.Our whippets n lurcher's are our friend's ,family ,and companion's.Whereas greyhounds are for the most part,money maker's and therefore no use to the gambling man,when thing's go wrong.So are got rid of,the second they are no longer of use to their owner's.Not only for fighting ,are they P.T.S.But even if they're not fast enough.They are a money making tool.End of story.And if they cant make it,well,we all know what happen's next,dont we.I have 2 bitches here, that would not have a home,in to many kennels.But her they'll stay.

 

[Mark Roberts]

I thought that a dog that was 9 at the start of the season could continue racing until the season's end even if he/she turned 10 during that season. Yes? No?

YES

 

[IanGerman]

I thought that a dog that was 9 at the start of the season could continue racing until the season's end even if he/she turned 10 during that season. Yes? No?

YES

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Oh good - Lisa WILL be pleased, she can have another consolation mug from Cornwall again ... her birthday is the week before :cheers:

 

[LJH]

If all racers took such an honest and sensible attitude to running their dogs like June and Steve, perhaps we wouldn't be tied in knots by ENDLESS rules and regulations! How many pages do the WCRA rules run to these days! I know from personal experience that it is difficult to tell a friend that their beloved dog is not clean running, and yes I have suffered the abuse for it, but it still needs to be said rather than hidding behind more rules.

 

[Judy]

I've also noticed a trend in recent years where the owners of some dogs that get disqualified at club level seem to think that the disqualification only applies to racing at that club and therefore don't bother to get it cleared before racing at another club or even entering an open. It never used to be like that.