Dog and pond

[Tinytom]

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Looking at your dogs photos he is a long dog rather than a lurcher...a sighthound X sighthound rather than a sighthound X working breed .....
There is a difference in that sighthounds are very sensitive much more so than many other breeds hence why the sighthound rescues will not home dogs where people will use adverse training methods ...I just feel very sad you cant see this even though you seem to love your dog ....
Having owned sighthounds for 40 + years .....

 

[Montysdad]

Just to brighten things up, this was Vinny "helping" in the garden yesterday
https://ring.com/share/57dcc57c-465a-406f-a3c4-2b684ca6f717

 

[Feverfew]

Feverfew, how does this differ from, say, a baby learning that touching a hot radiator is not a good idea? I don't of course mean one hot enough that it would only cause discomfort, not pain, but just 'Oh, OK, I don't think I'll do that again because I don't like the consequences'? After all, exploring everything is also a baby's natural life skill.This level of comfort may cause discomfort, but not fear.

But yes, a 'strange' sensation on a sensitive sighthound's body with no apparent cause has a good chance of causing fear.

You bring up a very interesting and relevant point. In the course of their life, dogs (and babies) will encounter negative consequences as a result of their exploring something, that's true. For me, the difference is that if the caregiver is responsible for delivering the negative experience (ie, punishment), something changes in their relationship, particularly for the caregiver. They have stepped over a line, and instead of always staying on the side of care and respect, have started to use punishment. In their mind, the relationship is one of master and slave, if you like, where force can be used to get the other player in the scenario to comply. I just do not see my relationship with any animal in that light.

Many years ago, when I used to keep ex-battery hens, I learned this from a magnificent cockerel who lived with us. Over the years, he became very tame, and used to take food from my hand and sometimes sit on my knee while I was reading.

I had to keep them in at night because of the risk of foxes, and generally, they would take themselves off to their pen or just follow me. One evening, I was in a hurry to get them in, and the cockerel was being a bit slow, so I approached him and picked him up. He was indignant, and didn't like what I had done, even though it was just a few minutes as I carried him to their overnight quarters. For the rest of his life, he never came within a few yards of me, and certainly never took food from my hand or sat on my knee ever again. I had completely destroyed his trust in me.

I had every good reason to pick him up at the time, but for him, I had crossed a line and he never forgave me. The one good thing about the experience for me was that I never forgot it. I have had some dogs in my life that have had hugely annoying and problematic behaviour, and there have been times when I have had to leave the house and sit in the car for a few moments because I have felt such annoyance about what a dog is doing. I have screamed into a pillow in frustration sometimes! But I have never, ever shown a dog my frustration and anger, and it has never translated into punishment. I have never wanted a quick fix at the price of my own integrity.

Apologies for the long explanation!

 

[Feverfew]

Just to brighten things up, this was Vinny "helping" in the garden yesterday
https://ring.com/share/57dcc57c-465a-406f-a3c4-2b684ca6f717

Sorry, but we see things differently. What I see is Vinny hoping to interact with you, and biting the hose in frustration because he is getting nothing back. You're ignoring him, apart from when you shout at him and spray water at him. In my experience, 'zoomies' demonstrate over-excitement, frustration and are rarely a sign of dog who is processing his environment in ways that are interesting to him. If you look at his actual behaviour it is repetitive, unfocused and anything but 'fun'.

I completely see that you have come on here in good faith and have listened carefully to all the advice. I have no doubt that you love Vinny very much. However, for me, your language about Vinny and your actions towards him do not always reflect that. Just a personal observation.

If you thought more about what sort of relationship you want with him, you might start to see that all dogs have a lot to teach us about ourselves, if we are willing to be on equal terms with them.

 

[Montysdad]

Think you really are over analizing things , I see a very happy dog, probably first time he has ever seen a hosepipe,
the interaction between me and the dog is obvious,he is pulling on the hosepipe mainly to get my attention,
I pretend to scold him, he shoots off and does a mini zoomie then returns and does it again,he is young and
all he wants to do is play.
I posted the video to try and show he isnt made of glass,terrified of anything new or scarred for life by me
play scolding him,I have put so much work into him he has come on leaps and bounds in 4 months and we have a brilliant
relationship and he trusts me totally.He had been in many foster homes before I took him,no one wanted to adopt him,
possibly because they didnt have the time to help him through his problems.
Yes he is a sighthound and more prone to being sensitive but I know trust is the key to help him gain confidence and we
have that.

 

[Feverfew]

Think you really are over analizing things , I see a very happy dog, probably first time he has ever seen a hosepipe,
the interaction between me and the dog is obvious,he is pulling on the hosepipe mainly to get my attention,
I pretend to scold him, he shoots off and does a mini zoomie then returns and does it again,he is young and
all he wants to do is play.
I posted the video to try and show he isnt made of glass,terrified of anything new or scarred for life by me
play scolding him,I have put so much work into him he has come on leaps and bounds in 4 months and we have a brilliant
relationship and he trusts me totally.He had been in many foster homes before I took him,no one wanted to adopt him,
possibly because they didn't have the time to help him through his problems.
Yes he is a sighthound and more prone to being sensitive but I know trust is the key to help him gain confidence and we
have that.

Nope, not over-analysing. With all due respect, I have had 55 years of observing dogs in all sorts of environments, and your view of 'what play looks like' is often misunderstood, even by experienced owners. Quite apart from anything else, I have met only a handful of dogs who have any sense of what 'pretence' might mean, and they have been really skilful dogs with loads of experience, so your 'pretend scolding' doesn't wash for me, sorry. If your interaction is based on deception and pretending to be cross, that's a poor show. I stand by my analysis of his repetitive, unfocused running not as expressing joy or pleasure, but an inexperienced dog who does not have the resources or experience to make a more sensible choice.

Often, we are looking at the dog and seeing what we want to see, and that's a danger for everyone who interacts with dogs. Getting free of that and adopting a more neutral and ethological view is something I have been doing for most of my adult life.

 

[Montysdad]

We will have to agree to differ, we are miles apart but thanks for your replies.
I have had dogs for 55 years also and all have been happy so I must be doing something
right

 

[Feverfew]

We will have to agree to differ, we are miles apart but thanks for your replies.
I have had dogs for 55 years also and all have been happy so I must be doing something
right

I agree that we differ for sure! However, I would just add that my experience is my professional involvement with dogs (as a veterinary nurse and later as a canine behaviourist and therapist), and my views are not based on my own companion animals, so with respect, I have a great deal more experience over the course of those years.

 

[Montysdad]

Just an update on my dog and the pond, I used his collar to beep him on 3 occasions and he does not attempt to go
near it now, not through fear but but he has learnt in a very humane way that it is out of bounds.
I read understand and all the comments about the negative effects of using a collar but in his case it did work and
he is safe now which is all I wanted to achieve.I do think that just the mention of a training collar seems to make people
think it is one that delivers a shock, something I would never consider using on a dog, as a qualified electrician,
I have had fair number of shocks over the years and cant imagine the pain and confusion a dog would feel when recieving
one.I am not defending using a beeping collar as I dont think I have to,it is no different to using a whistle and providing
it used at an appropriate time and for very short duration it cannot harm even a sensitive dog like mine.
I am not dismissing any of the comments made and I am sure they were made for good reason and I am not trying
to prove anyone wrong but I had to do something and in this case it worked out fine

 

[arealhuman]

Oh wow, my dad is bigger than your dad thread Glad you're sorted and safe @Montysdad

I have a CSE in Woodwork, had it for 40 years, so I know a lot about everything to do with wood and there's nothing new for me to learn.

 

[Montysdad]

I have so much respect for the posters who actually understand how dogs minds work and I would never
assume I know better than them,I had a session with a behaviorist with Vinny to try and address his problem
with lunging at big dogs,previously i held him tight on a lead as we passed them not knowing it was the
totally wrong thing to do and he wouldnt learn a thing from that,I was told to more or less do the opposite,
firstly assess the approaching dog,if neccessary ask the owner if their dog was ok with others, if they were
ok,allow Vinny to approach the dog but keep the lead slack, if he lunges , pull him away as a correction but
immediately slacken the lead again.Very hard to do but it works,over the last 3 months he has shown steady
improvement and rarely lunges now.I would never have thought of that.
I am not to old to learn and dont assume I know anything about dog training,but this pond thing was
a special case.I lost my last dog 4 months ago, broke my heart and dont think I would have got through
his final days without the support of the members on here and was so grateful for it.
I adopted Vinny very shortly afterwards and when he started his pond antics,the danger involved
scared me, If anything had happened to him , it would have been the end for me after the awful shock
of losing my last dog. I really did try to do everything I could before posting on here suggesting using an electric fence
which was in hindsite pretty stupid and the worst thing I could have done as a lot of people pointed out, but when
you have a dog that is inches away from falling into a pond you dont have the time to reason with him pointing
out that its not a good idea.I did a lot of research to find the most effective way of stopping him,decieding
that a beeping collar might work,I was so careful using it and in his case it did the trick,I know some members
here disagreed with its use and put forward other solutions but none of those would have been practical or
could have worked in the short time I needed to find a solution.
I wasnt trying to prove a point that i knew better than anyone else or crowing about it, just grateful that it worked
for him.Never used the collar it since, he just lost interest in the pond.
Hope this posting explains where I was coming from and sorry if my previous postings on this gave the impression
I was ignoring what people were saying

 

[Feverfew]

I have so much respect for the posters who actually understand how dogs minds work and I would never
assume I know better than them,I had a session with a behaviorist with Vinny to try and address his problem
with lunging at big dogs,previously i held him tight on a lead as we passed them not knowing it was the
totally wrong thing to do and he wouldnt learn a thing from that,I was told to more or less do the opposite,
firstly assess the approaching dog,if neccessary ask the owner if their dog was ok with others, if they were
ok,allow Vinny to approach the dog but keep the lead slack, if he lunges , pull him away as a correction but
immediately slacken the lead again.Very hard to do but it works,over the last 3 months he has shown steady
improvement and rarely lunges now.I would never have thought of that.
I am not to old to learn and dont assume I know anything about dog training,but this pond thing was
a special case.I lost my last dog 4 months ago, broke my heart and dont think I would have got through
his final days without the support of the members on here and was so greatful for it.
I adopted Vinny very shortly afterwards and when he started his pond antics,the danger involved
scared me, If anything had happened to him , it would have been the end for me after the awful shock
of losing my last dog. I really did try to do everything I could before posting on here suggesting using an electric fence
which was in hindsite pretty stupid and the worst thing I could have done as a lot of people pointed out, but when
you have a dog that is inches away from falling into a pond you dont have the time to reason with him pointing
out that its not a good idea.I did a lot of research to find the most effective way of stopping him,decieding
that a beeping collar might work,I was so careful using it and in his case it did the trick,I know some members
here disagreed with its use and put forward other solutions but none of those would have been practical or
could have worked in the short time I needed to find a solution.
I wasnt trying to prove a point that i knew better than anyone else or crowing about it, just greatful that it worked
for him.Never used the collar it since, he just lost interest in the pond.
Hope this posting explains where I was coming from and sorry if my previous postings on this gave the impression
I was ignoring what people were saying

You certainly didn't give the impression that you were unwilling to listen - quite the opposite, in fact.
My impression is that we had a respectful discussion, and agreed to disagree.
We still disagree, because I would not go down the road of correction and punishment with a dog, but I appreciate that you took the time to explain your reasons for doing so. At the end of the day, we are all trying to do what we believe to be the best actions.

I think the comment above from arealhunam misrepresented the discussion and was quite uncalled for.

 

[Hemlock]

I think your points were gracefully made, Montysdad, and I agree with Feverfew in that our opinions may differ but are still made with respect.

 

[Montysdad]

I didnt mind then arealhuman comment,perhaps it could have been been worded better.
Funny thing is that I took up woodturning as a hobby when my wife died, been at it 2 years
and turning out some very nice things now.The thing with woodturning is you never stop learning.

 

[Feverfew]

I didnt mind then arealhuman comment,perhaps it could have been been worded better.
Funny thing is that I took up woodturning as a hobby when my wife died, been at it 2 years
and turning out some very nice things now.The thing with woodturning is you never stop learning.

Indeed, as with dogs!

 

[Montysdad]

woodturning can certainly bite

 

[RGC]

You bring up a very interesting and relevant point. In the course of their life, dogs (and babies) will encounter negative consequences as a result of their exploring something, that's true. For me, the difference is that if the caregiver is responsible for delivering the negative experience (ie, punishment), something changes in their relationship, particularly for the caregiver. They have stepped over a line, and instead of always staying on the side of care and respect, have started to use punishment. In their mind, the relationship is one of master and slave, if you like, where force can be used to get the other player in the scenario to comply. I just do not see my relationship with any animal in that light.

Many years ago, when I used to keep ex-battery hens, I learned this from a magnificent cockerel who lived with us. Over the years, he became very tame, and used to take food from my hand and sometimes sit on my knee while I was reading.

I had to keep them in at night because of the risk of foxes, and generally, they would take themselves off to their pen or just follow me. One evening, I was in a hurry to get them in, and the cockerel was being a bit slow, so I approached him and picked him up. He was indignant, and didn't like what I had done, even though it was just a few minutes as I carried him to their overnight quarters. For the rest of his life, he never came within a few yards of me, and certainly never took food from my hand or sat on my knee ever again. I had completely destroyed his trust in me.

I had every good reason to pick him up at the time, but for him, I had crossed a line and he never forgave me. The one good thing about the experience for me was that I never forgot it. I have had some dogs in my life that have had hugely annoying and problematic behaviour, and there have been times when I have had to leave the house and sit in the car for a few moments because I have felt such annoyance about what a dog is doing. I have screamed into a pillow in frustration sometimes! But I have never, ever shown a dog my frustration and anger, and it has never translated into punishment. I have never wanted a quick fix at the price of my own integrity.

Apologies for the long explanation!

That is amazing. You’ve taught me something (again). Thank you, Feverfew.