Dog attacks on people?

[Goldens4ever]

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Yeah thats what i thought that most people would not like it. I would be fine if it meant a person or child was not attacked by a dog.

What do you do then? If you really dont want to get attacked?

Ive read a lot of reviews on that spray and everyone says it works so maybe thats the best plan of action then as its ok to say go into the fetal position but your still going to get attacked and you dont know if anyone is there to help and what if the dog never stops or leaves you alone and continues to attack you

 

[Inka]

as its ok to say go into the fetal position but your still going to get attacked and you dont know if anyone is there to help and what if the dog never stops or leaves you alone and continues to attack you

Clearly you only go into that position if you are knocked to the ground and it is the safest position to remain protected. I think you are particarly sensitive right now as anyone would be having just seen/been involved with an attack by a dog, so I completely understand however you can't live your life carrying around a spray and being frightened and looking out for dogs ready to use it 24/7 nor would you want to.

 

[Goldens4ever]

It definitely shook me up and thankfully these attacks are uncommon and even more so on adults compared to kids. But i suppose i just want to feel safe , obviously i dont ever want to use a spray like that but if having it on me makes me feel safer if an agressive dog runs up to me or if i see another poor child get attacked I'd prefer to spray that then strangle the dog with a lead again as i was scared i was hurting the dog when i was strangling him but i just wanted him to let the boy go. And i suppose I'd rather be safe than sorry kind of thing if i had the spray

I also keep thinking of that poor boy and how he must be feeling.

 

[Goldens4ever]

I found this that gives advice on what to do What To Do When A Dog Attacks

I suppose after what i saw yesterday its just really hard to believe that a dog who is running towards you will stop or wont attack if you just stand there quietly and calmly with your arms crossed not giving eye contact.

How often does this work do most dogs stop in there tracks and leave you alone?

Is it really uncommon for the dog to go into full on attack if your just stood there calmy even pits ect?

 

[JudyN]

It is really not worth worrying about the risk of random dog attacks. Statistics show there are around 8000 hospital admissions a year for dog bites, and the vast majority of these will be in the home, on people the dog knows. Compare this to 1.2 million cases of violent crime a year. You're probably more likely to win the lottery than be the victim of an unprovoked dog attack.

 

[Goldens4ever]

Thank you @JudyN it just has really shook me up and i think i just keep thinking could i have done more or could i have stopped the attack without hurting the dog and if i knew how that would help

 

[Hemlock]

re: dog attacks - many years ago I was bitten by a stallion. When a horse bites you, it is some bite, and I had to go initially to A&E and afterwards several times to Outpatients. Every single time, I was told I'd been bitten by a dog, and every single time I explained it was a horse. So, frankly, I mistrust the statistics.

 

[Inka]

I wholeheartedly agree with JudyN, even thinking about this when you are planning on getting a pup will just mean you end up a nervous/anxious owner/handler and that will pass onto your pup, you will not give that pup the valuable training, experiences, socialisations it needs to become a balanced, well behaved dog as you consistantly avoid, 'just in case'

I know you are sensitive right now because of the nasty experience you have had but it can't rule your life and how you behave in the future or you will end up fearful of 'anything dog' like the person/people who say they 'don't like dogs' or 'are frightened of dogs' and the reason most give is they were once bitten by a dog and people hang onto that for 40 years many who don't even remember it happening but were told by their parent or grandparents it happened. Instead turn your nasty experience into something positive and learn about a dogs body language so you learn to 'read' dogs more affectively.
I have just finished doing classes with dog fearful people, when they started all of these people couldn't be in the same room as a dog even with the dog on a lead, calm, quiet, working and in 100% control, most of them couldn't even be in the same room as an 11 week old poodle pup or hid if they heard a dog bark ALL of them took that first step of wanting to change and ALL of them ended up handling and working dogs anyone coming in would have thought it was just a beginners dog training class of a group of people with 'their' dogs all together, laughing, relaxed and learning and enjoying themselves and 'wayhey' two asked if they can come to normal classes to continue and will handle/train my dogs on loan

 

[Hemlock]

What a lovely thing to be able to do, Inka.

 

[Inka]

What a lovely thing to be able to do, Inka.

Yes and I feel so proud of them all.
I 'hate' it when people say they are frightened of dogs all giving excuses like being bitten/attacked etc when the reality for most is they have just never been brought up or around any dogs or have 'borrowed' their fear from parents/grandparents/ the next door neighbour or whoever.
I love doing those classes and 'fell into it' 20 yrs ago when the Down's Syndrome Association emailed me to ask if I could help (or knew anyone who could) one young man who was fearful of dogs and it was affecting his life to the point he had got a job, was starting to walk to work but if he saw/heard a dog he ran and was withnessed running into traffic, so I thank him and the photo hangs on the wall of him holding my mini dog in his arms with his rosette for achievement.

 

[Goldens4ever]

Thanks @Inka defiantly dont have a fear of dogs in general and i know i will be fine with my own pup and am already reading dog behaviour books and will be working with a Behaviourist from day one to help me , its more certain breeds im scared of mainly pits, staffies, American bulldogs, Rottweilers.

Its not just because of what happened yesterday i have been nearly attacked myself by my aunts GSD who lunged at my face and nearly took my nose off but as an adult i know jade was a vulnerable shepherd who had epilepsy and was not well socialized or trained by my aunt who also was from a BYB. She lunged after i tried to stoke her head aunt said she was friendly but it was more a matter of my aunt didnt read the ques that she didn't want me to stroke her and as i was only 10 at the time i didnt know anything about dog behavior.

Then a few years ago a staffie came running up to me while i was sat on a bench reading didnt know the staffie was there until he jumped up next to me on the bench , i ignored the staffie and just kept reading my book and he bit my hand and then jumped down and ran back to his owner.

I dont want to be scared of certain breeds , i know if a labrador or spainel came over to me i was not be scared and i would just ignore the dog but keep an eye on were he is but if a staffie came over or any of the breeds i mentioned above i would scared and panic that there going to attack me as soon as there have run over which is why i know learning all this will help me.

How do i not be in fear of these dogs and when i see one stop thinking its going to attack me?

 

[Inka]

No breed or cross breed is any different to another in reality, it comes down to temperament of individual dogs.
Our likes/dislikes make a difference, as it does with non dog related things ( like religion, race, occupations etc etc) and often comes down to 'fear of the unknown', so get to know, learn about them, find someone with a bully breed you can get to know. Bully breeds are not 'my breed' preference but over the years I have got to know many, I also see about 40-60 bully breeds a week as a friend ( my ex Vet) runs a bully breed rescue, so I am there once a week and each day is a learning day...I still wouldn't personally choose to own a bully breed but I know about their quirky ways.
If we read statistics about 'breeds' Ok if you want to have a general idea about 'likely' potential charactaristics to help with training/behaviour such as BC can be obsessive ....so LOVE to repeat training over and over again, but if you just continually throw a ball, that is training an already obsessive breed into more obsession, which can lead to possession guarding the ball then onto other possession guarding, food, chairs, people,it can lead to the BC snatching tennis balls from kids, can lead to bites etc etc...where as if you throw the ball and teach 'wait', then 'free' then when it gets to the ball, 'down' then a recall and halfway back 'down' you get an obedient, listening BC where you have used it breed charactaristics in a positive way, try the same training with a poodle and it will look at you as if you are crazy....I have had 5 BC they have all been different personalities.
I have always owned mini poodles and can't tell you how many times I have heard derogatory comments about poodles, from 'handbag dogs' or 'nasty nippers', from 'puffy breed' to 'useless' yet they are very hard working dogs, very clever, like to make you laugh and many of those same people who have said derogatory things once they have met/worked/spent time with mine have said, "but your poodles are different" they are not, they are poodles!

ANY dog that is off lead and running up to people is a potential problem...or rather the 'owner/handler' is the issue and any dog doing that, you calmly/silently 'protect' yourself, so no looking, no talking, no touching, make sure your face is turned away or better still stand up so it doesn't have a face to make contact with, be boring/uninteresting as dogs want attention/games etc.

 

[Goldens4ever]

Thanks @Inka

I think having my Golden as well will help i was always confident around my nans labrador as he was confident it sort of rubbed off on me.
So meeting the bull breeds when im more confident i feel will help too.

Ive read on Victoria stilwells website the best thing to do is stand still cross arms no eye contact and remain calm, does this work for most bully breeds?

I know i read that bull breeds are one of the best with people which is why its sad theres so many who have attacked?

 

[Inka]

Children get bitten because their face is there abouts the same height as the dog, children often bend down/move closer to their face to 'look' straight at dogs, staring in dog language is aggressive.....but if some stranger walked directly towards you, staring directly at you coming too close...how would you feel? Direct line walking is an aggressive action in dog langauge...dogs curve when they walk/meet/greet, 'we' just force them to walk on paths straight/directly towards each other...which is why some dogs bark/lunge at other dogs. We cause many issues with our own dogs without thinking or maybe without knowing 'their language'), then blame the dog for being naughty or reactive, or anti social.

So for any dog you being boring, silent, turn your back to them, no eye contact.. it is the very basics you clearly tell any dog you are not interested, not interesting, not playing, not interacting, no game here!

 

[Goldens4ever]

Thanks @Inka i knew that dogs dont like you just going up to put your hands all over them like we wouldnt but i didn't know staring is aggressive in dog body language so i learned somthing new there. Here i am staring at any Golden i see because i find them so beutiful not knowing the Golden may not like me staring.

I like learning things like that.

You know when You said that as a last resort to curl up on the floor if the dog does attack this made me curious what would somone who cant get on the floor do?

 

[Inka]

Our own dogs learn we are not being aggressive when we stare at them as we do it all the time and from an early stage holding their head as tiny pups and moving them towards our face but it is always better to 'blink' which breaks the intense eye contact, and/or deliberately slowly turn your head/eyes to the side occassionally which just shows you how brilliant dogs are learning our weird human ways... the thing is if your dog has learned you are not being agressive when you stare, if they are unwell, in pain they can still feel you are being and potentially can react

 

[Inka]

You know when You said that as a last resort to curl up on the floor if the dog does attack this made me curious what would somone who cant get on the floor do?

you calmly/silently 'protect' yourself, so no looking, no talking, no touching, make sure your face is turned away or better still stand up so it doesn't have a face to make contact with, be boring/uninteresting as dogs want attention/games etc.

Your back is neutral, so gives no positive or negative reinforcement, no clues, no messages to the dog and in general dogs, all dogs like to please, they like to interact, but some things that people do is completely lost in translation by the dog...so turning your back to the dog is why it is a basic training suggestion when your own pup/dog is misbehaving, it ends their 'game' it just neutralises the situation and stops the dog making it 'think' ( uses its brain) rather than 'react', so no need to correct the dog or for the person to get frustrated and just as useful with a dog being 'aggressive' or attacking or in the frenzy of excitement and again useful with a dog who is really anxious/fearful of people and refuses to come near, by sitting down (making yourself smaller) and turning your back, that fearful /anxious dog is likely to move closer and use it primary sense and sniff and a far better way of socialising a scared/fearful/anxious dogs to new people than "throwing treats at it" as that just praises the dog for being frightened and that just tells the dog you want it to feel that way, when it is not the message you are trying to tell.

No dog speaks a human language, we humans speak too much as our primary sense is sound...our mouth, dogs primary sense is smell...nose, by talking too much it often confuses dogs when training them, in stopping them socialising, in stopping an attack as it overloads and excites them into reacting more...we all want a 'thinking' dog, not a 'reacting' dog...keep things simple for any dog in any situation and we humans get what we want be it a better behaved dog, a pup that learns quickly or stopping any negative reaction.... dogs are not little furry humans, they are wonderful animals of a different spieces with their own langauge and needs and we humans are bright enough to learn their lanaguge and communicate using it..... and they are very bright too they learn and understand lots of human command words, so they do try to understand us humans. I sat and wrote down all and any human command words one of my dogs knows, I stopped writing at 300 but I could have continued writing more but those number of 'humans words' she understood amazed me.

 

[JacksDad]

.... i know what i did was cruel but i wrapped it round the dogs throat and started to strangle the pit as he would not let go of the boy after i started to strangle him he let go .....

What you did was not "cruel", it was necessary to ensure the safety of the child. Would the dog have killed the Child? Maybe, maybe not. Where you willing to wait and see how it all played out? Of course not. You took rational, reasonable action. Context matters. Matters greatly. You were not cruel.

But reflecting on what happened im confused why he attacked you always here that dogs dont just attack and that theres always a reason but it really looked like as soon as he saw the kids he saw prey and wanted to kill them.

As i want to learn about behavior i wanted to ask why dogs attack people what are the reasons people talk about?

There is always a reason. We just might not be able to ever know it. This is when the stories come in play... it's "prey drive", it's "dominance", it's "abuse". These are all just wild ass guesses because humans hate the unexplainable.

Without more verifiable history for the dog, including a far more complete medical examination that most people can afford, there are times the why can never 100% be known.

A dog I had been working with for 2 years, history suggested human safe, "out of the blue" attacked a human. NO provocation from the human what so ever, this is 100% verified. BUT there is still always a reason, even if we cannot figure it out. In this dog's case some physical evidence of neurological issues was starting to become evident. Was there a brain tumor affecting behavior? Was there back pain? Something else medical related?

There is always a reason, we just might not be able to figure out it given the information we have available to us, and that can be hard to live with by those that survive the attack, observe the attack, or work with dogs trying to prevent these things from happening.

Attacks and hunting behaviors (what people call prey drive) are two different behaviors. Once you see a dog hunt, you do not ever again mistake aggression, ball chasing, even human chasing as "hunting behavior". Without video of the dogs mentioned in the OP, we can't say if the dog was hunting or not. We would need history and video to determine that.

Attacks and aggression more often than not (but not exclusively) have to do with safety. From the dog's perspective, no matter how irrational it may seem to us, the dog is likely attacking due to a perception of danger.

 

[JacksDad]

On the Rotti videos and the suggestion it was "playing". It is a far more likely reason than "predatory drift". It is easier to think of such events as something like "the dog thought the kids were prey". Easier because it suggests something wrong with the dog. Dangerous, out of normal, etc. The problem though is not only is the body language and behavior all wrong for hunting behavior, it assumes we know what the dog was "thinking".

It is harder to accept play as an explanation because it sounds like "oh all is ok, it was just play, nothing to worry about". NO! there is still something to worry about when a dog sees humans as play toys like in the video. It is still dangerous. It is still concerning. It is still socially unacceptable for cohabitation between human and dogs. But in this case a much more likely explanation than "predatory drift"/"Prey drive". If the dog was an experienced hunter, and was hunting the child, there would likely have been a much different video even if the child was not killed.

I re read the link back to the other forum in which "predatory drift" was discussed. I have learned a huge amount over the last 10 years, and "predatory drift" is simply something I no longer really give any thought to. I have never "diagnosed it" for any of my clients, and I have worked with dogs that have hunting tendencies. "predatory drift" in my opinion was an attempt to explain aggressive behavior that seemed to be unexplainable. however, there is no mistaking hunting behavior for aggression. They are not the same once you seen both. Aggression tends to be about safety from the dog's perspective. Hunting is about food acquisition. It is focused, and a significant part of the behavior chain is actually quiet "calm" compared to aggression. Yes, it ends in a moment of violence, but it's quick and decisive most of the time. Afterwards the hunter is calm, relaxed, content. Post aggression, no so much.

 

[Inka]

The term “predatory drift” was coined by Dr. Ian Dunbar around the 1970s ( vet, behaviourist, dog trainer, TV personality, published author) to describe what happens between dogs ( or dog/person) when a dog switches suddenly from a ( human acceptable) 'play mode' to a ( human unacceptable) 'predatory mode', this phrase was not made to make any connection at all to 'prey drive' but to satisfy people in their need to know/understand, so 'explain' the sudden change in ACTION rather than the term 'play' or 'predatory' and I suspect Ian Dunbar used it connecting it or simular thinking of the time to human behaviour psychology of 'instinctive drift' ( 1960s) which is the tendency of an human to revert to unconscious , automatic and genetic ancestrial behaviour that interferes with learned behaviour from operant conditioning..... shame Dunbar didn't use the same term 'instinctive drift' as ( for me) it discribed the action more correctly and also connects to the flight, fight, freeze or fool around...again terms that can be misunderstood but all stem from the same 'feeling' of shock, fear, anxiety and happen in both people and dogs.

The terminology I find myself using to explain is 'thinking' and 'reacting' however like with any terminology it depends on where in the world you live as the same word/term can have very different meanings also depends on the experience of the people you are talking to... 'play' and 'preditory' to the general pet owner are 'positive' and 'negative' as they are only looking at their own dogs behaviour however play can be thinking or reactive.... 'generally' thinking is controlled, reactive is instinctive and can be or will get out of control.