Dominent Dog Aggression/Top Dog?

[WeeTeeCee]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

Hi all, new to the site so be gentle! We have 4 dogs, and after losing our eldest dog two of our dogs have gradually got worse with aggression.  There were never any problems before with any of our dogs.  Our second youngest Sprocker has taken to fighting/attacking our oldest dog, also a Sprocker.  At times he knocks lumps out of him.  The eldest sometimes tries to fight back but it's always one sided as he's now an old dog.  It happens especially around me but not so much with my husband.  Vet said it was fight for top dog and gave us tips but these haven't worked.  When I'm in the house alone they always have to be seperate. Not sure if it's top dog or not.  Anybody had anything similar or ideas on how we can address it? Have any also used adaptil/ucalm or other herbal treatment? Thanks for taking the time to read.

 

[JoanneF]

Adaptil might help but it might not be enough. You could also muzzle train them to prevent more serious injuries. Use a basket type muzzle and introduce it as a positive thing by taking it at the dogs' pace and smearing it with squeezy cheese or similar.

But these things only address the symptom, not the root of the problem.

Unless you can keep them separate always, which logistically would be difficult, you may need help from a behaviourist. It might be the younger one trying to gain status but when you said it happens more around you, it made me wonder if it might be resource guarding; with you being the 'resource'. A good behaviourist will observe the behaviour and help you work through a solution. Please choose someone from COAPE or the APBC. Behaviourists are part of an unregulated industry and if you get someone from these organisations you at least can be confident in their credentials. Your insurance may cover the cost.

 

[WeeTeeCee]

Thanks for your reply and information.  We tried muzzles but were just impossible to keep on.  Vet prescribed diazepam.  I tried a herbal treatment but there was no difference.  Vet thought I must be bottom of the pecking order hence why they do it more with me.  Might have to try a behaviourist.  Unfortunately they're not insured.  Just wondered if there were anyother  avenues to try first. Thanks again.

 

[JoanneF]

 "Vet thought I must be bottom of the pecking order"

This idea is very outdated, and is now widely discredited. We now believe the relationship between humans and dogs is more of a partnership, even in a pack of dogs the leadership role changes to different dogs in different circumstances. Please select a behaviourist who subscribes to modern, positive, reward based theory. Anyone advocating dominance will not help your dogs get through this.

 

[gypsysmum2]

Yes, your vet needs to get more up to date! Mind you they learn very little about behaviour at college and care even less when they are qualified. Much too busy with clinical matters of course, and behaviour consultations take hours rather than minutes.

Dogs do have a pecking order among themselves, it just does not include us. The younger dog may be trying to establish himself more now that there is a gap. If the older dog accepted that, all would be peace and harmony. The trouble, often, is that we see it as "unfair" for a younger dog to have higher status than an older one. This usually means we put the younger dog down and promote the older one which, in turn, means the younger one tries harder to establish itself.

For first aid measures, while you await the behaviourist, you could section off the house with stair gates etc.

As JoanneF has said you may well need a behaviourist from one of the organisations mentioned by her to sift through what is going on. Being very involved with your dogs makes it much harder to see any patterns and nuances.

If you are good with technology, a behaviourist would appreciate some film of your dogs just being themselves. So set up a cctv camera and leave it running while you go about your usual daily routine. Sometimes they bring a camera and set it up for you.

One of the COAPE or APBC members will want a detailed history of all the dogs from the moment you took them on and any knowledge you have of their past. This helps them to build a complete picture of what is going on. They are very interested in the emotional state of each dog so do try to be as observant of that as you can. 

 

[leashedForLife]

 I'm disappointed to hear that a vet told U it's an attempt to "take over the pack" by the younger dog - my word, there are enuf self-taught wannabe trainers going about spouting that sort of guff, we don't need any college-educated professionals giving it a gloss of respectability! 

I want to be sure I have the facts correct - U currently have 4 dogs, so the dog who died would have made 5, yes?
What are the ages of all the dogs, their breeds & genders, & are they intact or S/N?

I understand U have 2 Cocker x Spaniels, the eldest dog & the 2nd-youngest, but that doesn't tell me just how old each is - U refer to both as "he", so they're both male, but what are the other 2?

If the 2 who are fighting are both intact, my 1st suggestion is to have both temporarily chemically neutered -
EDITED to add, 'Suprelorin'...
http://www.acc-d.org/available-products/suprelorin-male-dogs
...& Tardak ...
https://www.viovet.co.uk/Tardak_for_Dogs_Cats/c16083/

then continue to keep them apart as the androgen-supporession takes effect, & gradually bring them out together for structured leashed activities, such as FOLLOW ME walks [named for the comical mini-trucks that lead commercial jets along the tarmac] where dog A leads going out, & dog B leads coming home, with the dogs kept far-enuf apart that each is relaxed & not reactive, altho aware of the other.

Making the presence of the other dog a reliable predictor of good times & happy events makes a powerful association; every time something good happens [a meal, a walk, fetch on a long line by turns, tug-of-war by turns, etc], their former RIVAL is there...  just don't allow either to make ugly faces, posture provokingly [up on toes, chest out, ears forward, hard stare, etc].
If either dog starts to pose & stand tall, or their tail goes up rigid as a flagpole, QUICKLY make him U-turn & depart briskly, without a word. Park him in a crate if U have one [if not, i'd get a used airline-approved shipping crate ASAP, U can save about half its new cost by buying used on Craigs, GumTree, PreLoved, etc], & leave him think solo for maybe 2 or at most 3-minutes.
Then U must give him the chance to re-offend - the penny will never drop if he's left there so long that he forgets what he did just B4 he was bunged in the crate. Take him out on leash, bring him over but not as close as before, watch his body language carefully, & re-engage him in the Good Thing that was going on before he began inflating himself like a balloon of hot-air.
.
A month or 2 of being chemically castrated & practicing careful Happy Activities with both dogs on-leash & on their best behavior, should be very revealing. // U need 2 adults to do this right, one to handle each dog - & don't always handle the same dog, swap 'em about. 
If this 6 to 8-weeks helps reduce the aggro & restore some good feeling, i'd desex whichever dog/s  is / are intact, & continue the Good THings when we're together cycle as they make more happy associations.  With luck & consistency, plus staying very aware of their body language for early notice of any arousal, U may be able to have them off-leash UNDER CAREFUL SUPERVISION, but we can't predict how long that will take. U can only go at the dogs' speeds.
.
Hope this helps,
 - terry pride, member Truly Dog-friendly
'dogs R dogs, wolves R wolves, & primates R us.' -- (™ 2007) 

 

[gypsysmum2]

It is not really recommended, now, to neuter both antagonistic male dogs. All you are doing is bringing them both down to the same status again. Yes testosterone plays a part in these things but it can also be useful for a nervous dog to keep his testosterone. Careful evaluation, by a qualified behaviourist, of each dog would be required before the neutering of any dog takes place. It cannot be undone!

Once a behaviourist has evaluated each dog they will discuss which dog appears to be top dog and then may recommend neutering the under dog. This widens the gap between the two antagonists and helps them to live side by side.

We all think that the underdog should be pitied but it is widely believed that most dogs are happy as the underdog. Much less stressful if someone else takes on all the responsibility! This is more than likely why they came to live with us in the first place. To be protected and fed by someone who lets them live a nice quiet life  

 

[leashedForLife]

GypsyMum,
Can U offer a link to a peer-reviewed journal article, with data to support that?

I literally never heard it said, that "male dogs need their testes to have any confidence", until a pet-owner on another  UK-forum said it, a few years ago.
No one on that forum has ever been able to provide scholarly proof as evidence, & frankly, i'm afraid it's a myth.

I lived in the Tidewater area of Virginia for 14-years, & worked with a number of local shelters & several dog-rescues, thruout that time. Every one of those organizations S/N every dog before they are made available for adoption; in the case of rescues, a new arrival lives with a foster in their home, & is not listed until after s/he has been desexed - there's no on-line photo, no ad for that dog. S/he is being evaluated, getting any vet-care needed, getting B-Mod as required, AND being desexed & healing, before the general public are told, 'We have a new dog who needs a home.'
Some of the many dogs i worked with were genuine basket-cases; a few i thought would never be able to be placed with an average pet owner [APO], but would need to live with an experienced foster or a trainer for the rest of their lives.  // Yet every one of them, M or F, was desexed - it's S.O.P., no dogs are kept intact.

None of those dogs - & there were hundreds, over those 14 years, in municipal shelters, in private shelters, & in rescues - "got worse", i-e, became MORE fearful, after they were desexed. Not one. // If what U say is true, that male dogs need testicles & their circulating testosterone to remain or even BECOME normal-range confident, from being extremely timid or shut-down, how could that possibly be true?

Believe me, i am not being sarcastic - i'm asking a genuine question. If that were true, i cannot believe that all those dogs were simply incredibly, incredibly lucky, & they were all exceptions to "the rule".  Nor do i believe for a moment that i'm miraculously gifted as a trainer, & did things that no one else could do, thus allowing them to escape a lifelong post-neuter existence as a mizrably timid, anxious, constantly fearful animal, unable to enjoy their life or meet strangers, enter a new setting, or be handled by a stranger without panic.

I also can't believe that UK dogs, who are descendants of the same bloodlines as many U-S dogs, are behaviorally very different from U-S dogs, & your dogs in the UK are fragile flowers, while ours in the U-S are sturdy yeoman stock.     That makes no sense - domestic dogs just don't grow that far apart, genetically, in a relatively brief time - unless someone is deliberately manipulating them in a specific direction, i-e, to be more fearful across the spectrum, & that would take not just enormous effort, but a concerted effort across all breeds & types - because U aren't telling me that only GUNDOGS are affected, or only GUARDING breeds, U are saying, 'any male dog' - yes?

And come to think of it, Why only males?
No one [so far] alleges that female dogs can't be spayed, because they will become sad shrinking creatures who hide, flee, & snap defensively.  Only male dogs are so strangely dependent on gonads for their self-confidence - take the testes away, & he's a total wuss. How can that be?

I will be happy to read any research reference, but no one has yet been able to find one - including myself, & i've searched Google Scholar many, many times.
For now, i stand by my suggestion - & further, the chemical castration i suggested is TEMPORARY, not permanent. If it should actually happen that either dog shows any bad after-effects, there's no permanent harm - since the injection wears off, over time, & full fertility as well as testosterone levels returns.

Ergo, it's an extremely low-risk venture, & not very costly, either. 
- terry

 

[leashedForLife]

There's also a confounding variable - we don't know yet, per the OP,  whether both dogs are intact - & if one is desexed & not the other, which of the 2 is intact.

For all we know, the apparent aggressor [the younger dog] is neutered, & the apparent victim [the elder] is intact. We can't even be sure that they are, indeed, elder victim & younger aggressor - it's remotely possible that the elder dog is doing something, a hard look, a certain challenging stance, which actually kicks off the younger dog.

We also don't know the context of these fights - is food present, or even EMPTY bowls? --- Dogs who resource-guard may guard the bowl, empty & sitting on the floor; their supposed rival innocently walks BETWEEN the guarding dog & her or his 'food resource', an empty vessel, & the RG dog leaps to their feet & assaults the k9 passerby, who may have no idea what the H*** they did to cause this, & of course, must defend themselves in any case, if only to minimize injuries.

Bowls, any nonslip mats the bowls sit on during meals, & any other cues to meals or food, should all be put away out of the dogs' reach in any multi-dog household. // We had a very sad case some 10-years back, in VA, of a Chesapeake Bay Retriever  who was very well-trained & well-behaved, but who was a known resource-guarder. She was worked with extensively & was safe and trusting WITH PEOPLE, when she was listed as available.
She was adopted by a novice to that breed, who already had 2 dogs - an older JRT, & a Beagle, both very sociable with humans & dogs. // The owner was in the habit of leaving the back door ajar, with a spring-closed screen door the dogs could shoulder thru, in mild weather - the dogs let themselves out to pee, came back, & scratched or whined to be let in again. The slap of the screen-door alerted whoever was home that a dog had exited, & would soon need to be admitted.
It was evening, the couple were watching TV, & the JRT left the room to exit & pee. // The Chessie was lying on the cool tiles in the kitchen, the JRT went toward the back door - which put him between the Chessie & all 3 empty food bowls - & she jumped up, grabbed him, shook him, & dropped him.   He bled-out in the car, on the way to the emergency vets'.
I had to try & comfort that woman over the phone - she was crying & could barely speak, it was awful. No one at the rescue group had ever thought to tell her specifically to PICK UP ALL BOWLS after meals, they just took it as a given. It was a terrible accident, & there was nothing we could do to fix it; the Chessie was returned to the rescue, & rehomed as an only dog.
If the other dog had been the Beagle, it's likely that he would have been injured, but not killed; as it was, the 10# JRT was dead in a matter of minutes, the size disparity between him & an 80# dog was too great. It was a very bitter lesson. 

- terry

 

[gypsysmum2]

I am sorry but I find your posts, with all the capitals and underlining of words, quite intimidating

All shelters in the UK neuter as a matter of course too. It is done purely to reduce numbers not for behaviour reasons.

The thinking behind testosterone giving confidence comes from the research done by our top behaviourists from both COAPE and APBC. You may like to peruse their websites if you are interested in peer reviewed research. Both of those organisations see many thousands of dogs each year and work with their owners to understand the behaviour of each individual dog within its own environment. This experience is then shared with students and peers on a regular basis through their university level courses and regular seminars.

Behaviour is driven by emotions (see EMRA on the COAPE website) and emotions can be affected by so many different things including hormones.

 

[leashedForLife]

I'm confused - i underlined 5 words in my 1st reply, yet that appears intimidating? -- I use bold-face or underlining only to emphasize a word or a short phrase, certainly  not to bully anyone verbally.  

I'm familiar with both APBC & COAPE, but i've never seen any peer-reviewed articles that claim desex - specifically of male dogs only, not of Fs - causes a disastrous loss of confidence, & consequent timidity. // I'll look at both websites, but i know of no such research being published to date.

The emotional grounds of behavior are precisely what B-Mod uses to change a prior CER / conditioned emotional response, or replace an unwanted behavior.  For example, a dog who is afraid on the vet's exam table after a painful injury as a pup, can be re-taught by pairing all those situational cues with Good Things, changing the CER for a new, relaxed & happy demeanor.
However, behavior is not only driven by emotions - it is fundamentally driven by consequences  [sorry, bold again],  as rewarding behaviors are repeated, while those behaviors with no worthwhile payoff or that have bad consequences, are not repeated.

Self-rewarding behaviors are in another category, & can be difficult to address - such as yappy dogs who adore the sound of their own voices, or dogs who are escape artists & can seemingly get out of any fence, going over, under, or thru it as needed - every escape is another reward, so only successful confinement stops the self-rewarding behavior of exploring the fence for any weaknesses, & escaping.
 - terry

 

[leashedForLife]

Update -
I found nothing on the COAPE website about desex in male dogs causing timidity / loss of confidence - there is no drop-down menu that lists 'research', other than the blogs & news heading, & this is everything they've got, QUOTE,

 

Seminar Review: THE SCIENCE OF CANINE EMOTIONALITY, BEHAVIOUR PROBLEMS AND THERAPEUTICS, AND ITS PRACTICAL APPLICATION FOR VETERINARIANS IN PRACTICE
New COAPE Graduates Celebration
Onset of Fear Depends on Breed, Finds Study
Shock Collars: What Manufacturers Don’t Want You to Know
Vaccination: a New Perspective on an Old Argument
Ketamine: a tail of Abuse, Politics and Animal Welfare
Critical Periods (Sensitive Periods) in Puppies – Revisited
Life Jackets for Pets – how safe are they?
Does your dog pee on the left or the right?
CALLING ALL VETERINARY NURSES INTERESTED IN ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR…
Another COAPE Success Story
New EMRA Book by COAPE
Research in Feline Emotionality Study Update
Research in Feline Emotionality Study Update
The Prediction of Human-Sociability in the Domestic Cat
COAPE at Crufts 2013 with the KCAI
Largest Puppy Farm Raid Ireland Had Ever Seen
COAPE Supports Research in Feline Emotionality Study
Pet Behaviour Career Without Debt Fear
 
==== end quote ===

Where am i to find this elusive information, please? - can U post a link?  I'd appreciate it.
TIA,
- terry

 

[leashedForLife]

Aha! - from the APBC website,
http://www.apbc.org.uk/system/files/private/apbc_summary_sheet_of_castration_risks_and_benefits.pdf

From the sheet above,

What is true of one species is not necessarily the case in another -
the extreme care-giving for their own mate & infants, & the exclusive pair-bond of male voles in one species, is not duplicated in a very-closely related vole species.  One species has males who are incredible 'dads' & 'husbands', who have no interest in any female but their mate; the other has males who will mate with multiple females, & offer no care to their own infants, nor help their mate during birth, etc.
Which species  had the 'loss of confidence / higher anxiety' association? -- betting it was human males, who all too often conflate the ability to have or sustain an erection with their own personal self-worth, & any loss of libido or unpredictable loss of erections can cause devastating depression, suicidal thoughts or actions,  loss of motivation, job loss, relationship problems, & more.

further,


Bold above is in the original, as is the red text.  // So they, too, say  that desex of one or possibly both may help, in cases of interdog aggro within the same household.

& again,


Notice these are anecdotal reports  (sorry, bold) - they not the result of research.
They base  this solely on reports from owners who think their dogs are less confident, after desex.

I'd still like to know, even from owners, why F dogs are apparently immune.  That's truly puzzling.  

 - terry

 

[leashedForLife]

Estrogens & androgens are, of course, present in both sexes -  the ratio of one to the other gives rise to primary & secondary sex characteristics, sex-specific behaviors, & in particular, male dogs are unique in their 4 stage exposure to testosterone levels.

Their initial exposure is, IIRC, about 6-weeks into pregnancy in utero, when the dam secretes androgens into the amniotic fluid bathing each M pup. [this also happens in human pregnancies - all human infants began life as female fetuses, & male anatomy is a re-shaping of the genitalia.] 
This secreted hormone-bath also affects F siblings who are in-between 2 brothers, to a greater or lesser degree - & the sole F born in an otherwise all-male litter can display amazingly intense pseudo-male behavior, everything from humping other dogs of both sexes [not during estrus, when mounting is part of flirtation & courtship, but even after spaying] to leg-lifting when peeing, kick-scratching when she defecates, & posturing at other dogs she does not know in the classic M:M confrontational pose - up on toes, hard stare, ears forward, weight on her forehand, hackles may rise, tail is jacked up, etc.

Once born, M pups begin secreting testosterone in slowly increasing amounts beginning around 10-WO, & they enter actual puberty at 6-MO.  It is when they reach 8 to 10-MO that the really bizarre period begins, when teen-males enter a 'super-male' phase & all their sexually-driven behaviors suddenly spike.  That's the stage when many dogs are abandoned at shelters as 'uncontrollable'  when in fact they simply got no training at all, or they are supposedly 'untrainable' because they are suddenly more independent & don't come when called if they're distracted.
During the super-male peak, a teen dog secretes 5 to 7 times the levels of circulating testosterone found in an adult, intact male dog, who is 15-mos-old or older.  So far as we know, no other mammal has this super-male period.

The problems with the super-male period are twofold - other dogs react very differently to him than previously, & any learned behavior from this period may persist, even after desex.
A teen-male who was popular & sociable at the dog park all thru puphood from 12-WO on, may suddenly be shocked & confused when his 'buddies' start harassing him instead of playing with him.  Owners need to watch & intervene if their teenager is being too assertively quashed. OTOH, his attempts to mount Fs who are not receptive will get snarls, snarks, or simple cold-shoulders, & those are appropriate feedback from the mountee - they shouldn't be interrupted, but supported by the owner, who can remind him verbally to 'Leave it!' when he starts fantasizing about humping Lisa...    ...especially if Lisa has flashed a mouthful of teeth at him after prior assaults.

re persistent learned behaviors, a young male who starts marking indoors at 9-MO & is neutered at 18-MO may continue to mark indoors, maybe under provocation - such as seeing another male dog lift HIS leg on a shrub in the front garden, entering what the resident dog thinks of as 'his turf' & also visually challenging him by urinating with a male display.
Similarly, a young male who goes walkabout during his super-male period, hunting for estrous Fs, may continue to escape after he's been neutered, 'cuz he found out what fun it was to wander unfettered.  It's hard to un-learn something, once it's experienced.
 

 

[gypsysmum2]

Surely the wording "super male" denotes confidence? Surely it is caused by a surge in testosterone?

I definitely noticed it in my most recent rescue dog. He was not neutered when I got him. The shelter insisted that he was neutered. I held out until he reached 14 months. The perceived thinking (from Dr Peter Neville) is to try to get the dog to 18 months when all the benefits from the testosterone will have, hopefully, been given. As I say, I neutered my boy at 14 months and his confidence dropped like a stone.

I know that the above is not "scientific" but when one of the top behaviourists in the world recommends leaving male dogs intact as long as possible and to try to get them to 18 months before neutering I tend to sit up and listen. Nobody is saying that neutering is wrong just that each case, as in all behaviour work, needs careful assessment.

 

[leashedForLife]

no, "super-male" does not '...denote confidence' -  it simply refers to the period of extreme testosterone secretion, when a teen-male has 5 to 7X the testosterone in his bloodstream as an adult dog of 15 to 18-Mos or older.
It also refers to the reaction such a teen-male gets from other dogs, as they react to him As They Do To Other Intact Males -  but much-more intensely, because he reeks of testosterone, instead of merely smelling 'male'.
It's the difference between someone who puts a dab of perfume behind each ear, another dab on each wrist, & is content, vs someone who sprays the stuff all over their body & walks about in what ought to be a visible cloud of strong scent, which takes the breath of anyone that they walk by, or who stands near them, for the entire day & evening - until they wash it off in the shower.  Pee-uuuw.  We have quite a few of these olfactory offenders, who can empty a section of a subway-car with their powerful perfumed stink.

The ratio of S/N to intact pets varies by region in the U-S, with the Southeast, rural Midwest, & Southwest having the most intact pets, & the least S/N. As a direct result, the shelters & rescues in the SE, SW, & Mid-W are often overwhelmed by floods of unwanted dogs, cats, & entire litters of unplanned kittens & pups; wholesale euthanasia is the only recourse they had, for decades. // Now, at least some of those healthy young animals have a chance to have a full lifespan, because they are taken from high-kill shelters & transported to urban areas, out of state - often out of the region - to be adopted.
And they are all desexed - M, F, adult, cats, dogs, kittens, pups - before they are listed as adoptable.

I live in New England - the region with the highest proportion of neutered pets in the USA, averaging 75%.
On average, 3 of every 4 dogs & cats in pet-homes are S/N, in Conn, R.I., NY, Vermont, etc. // In Massachusetts, where i live, more like 85% are S/N, & in urban Boston, where i work 4 days a week, it averages 90%  - some neighborhoods, especially low-income areas, have more intact pets, closer to the regional average of 75%, but downtown Boston has neighborhoods where virtually 100% of pet dogs & cats are all desexed.

Now, looking at this purely from a statistical viewpoint -
if all these hundreds of thousands of MALE dogs, who make-up approx 50% of the dog-popn, did indeed run the risk of becoming timid, shrinking, snappy, fearfully defensive animals post-neuter, don't U think the local vets would have noticed?  -- Wouldn't there be articles in the Boston Globe daily newspaper about the crisis in pet behavior, & the vast number of male dogs who had been not only made reproductively sterile, but made timid to a marked degree?  Wouldn't there be cries of alarm from vets, & outrage from animal advocates?
The Animal Rescue League locally, NY SPCA, Mass SPCA, & even such national political-powerhouses as PeTA & H.S.U.S.? --  yet there's no outcry.   :blink:

Where are all these pathetic, shy dogs? -- God knows, i see a few timid dogs on the street being walked by various owners, many are transplanted Southern rescues brought from high-kill shelters out of state, to be adopted in happy New England, which lacks sufficient unwanted dogs & cats, & surplus kittens & pups, & must import them, LOL - but seeing a young hound who is startled by heavy traffic when he came from a rural shelter in W Virginia or Georgia, just 3 or 4 weeks ago, is hardly surprising.

Even if i simply accept this as Gospel truth, on faith - that EVERY male dog is at potential risk of being transformed from a happy, confident dog to a shy, timid wreck by neutering ---  i don't see the numbers of post-neuter shy dogs, who should be all over New England.  Unlike cats, dogs must come out of their homes at least a few times daily, to void, & their behavior / temperament can't be kept a secret, as they are walked everywhere.  Where are all these behaviorally-damaged dogs?

The only other possibility is that 'UK dogs are different' - which i can't believe, as they are closely related to U-S dogs & many UK-bred dogs come here as potential sires & dams, just as future sires & dams go from the U-S & Canada & Mexico to the UK.
And this still doesn't answer the riddle of why female dogs are apparently immune, & don't lose their self-confidence with their ovaries - a separate but interesting, related topic.

In sum, i can't believe there's a cause & effect process.  The after-effects should be glaringly obvious in this bastion of S/N pets, & they are missing.
- terry

 

[gypsysmum2]

No one is saying that all dogs are affected by losing their testosterone. It has huge benefits for the dog population and for some individual dogs but it is now thought that the decision to neuter or not should be done on a case by case basis. Most, well bred, well socialised dogs are totally unaffected by neutering but, with dogs that missed out on socialisation or are from nervous stock it may be best to wait until sexual maturity has been reached, at about the age of eighteen months, before neutering takes place. By that time, any benefits gained from having testosterone will have been gained and it will not do any harm to neuter.

Apologies to the OP for the hijacking of this thread. In your case I think the advice of a qualified behaviourist to assess each of your dogs would be the best option to see if there may be some benefit in neutering or not. It may just be that you have to accept the younger dog taking over where a space has occurred. Most male dog aggression can be sorted eventually. Bitches, on the other hand, can be very difficult to sort if they fall out.

You are right to keep them separate to prevent them practising the behaviour and it becoming ingrained. I hope a behaviourist will bring harmony to your household.

 

[leashedForLife]

GypsyMum,
I understand that dogs who are supposedly anxious / damaged / neglected / undersocialized / unhabituated / genetically timid, are at higher risk, theoretically, of this alleged desex after-effect -
but given the thousands of dogs who come from Godawful puphoods in the South, who are dumped at high-kill shelters, & suddenly find themselves in a dense urban environment, don't U think i should see lots of anxious hound-mixes on Boston streets?...  they ALL get neutered, without exception.  Nobody tests them ahead of time to see which dog or pup is timid or bold, sound-sensitive or totally oblivious, social with all humans & most dogs, etc - they just test them for heartworm, vaccinate, treat them for parasites, & whip out those testes so they can be listed for adoption. *Shrug*

Also, all those feral, semi-feral, profoundly neglected dogs that i worked with thru P.A.C.C.,  K9 New Life, Norfolk SPCA, Va Bch SPCA, Chesapeake Humane Society, & other shelters & rescues - some physically abused, some emotional basket-cases - should have become those trembling ninnies after neutering, if it was going to happen to damaged dogs - but they didn't. // They all improved with B-Mod & went to adoptive homes with APO families, not as lifelong 'pet projects' to pitying trainers who took them on as needy misfits.

When neutering arises as a topic, lately folks on UK forums seem to assume that every male dog is a quaking 4-legged mass of Jello, & taking his testicles will be the final insult that causes him to melt into a quivering puddle who will never have a backbone again.    Exaggerating slightly - but only slightly.   :b

I saw nothing in the OP's posts that indicates either of her dogs is a Nervous Nellie - unless i misread, or overlooked something, they're apparently normal dogs. // And I suggested suppressing testosterone, not immediate castration - as an experiment. If it helps, that's a good reason to neuter.  If it doesn't, it's reversible - the implant or the injection wears off.
They're not breeding candidates, in any case - or if so, it wasn't mentioned.
 - terry

 

[leashedForLife]

@WeeTeeCee -
we still don't know the ages of the 2 who are fighting, nor their repro status [intact or not] -- nor the genders, ages, or breeds of the other 2 dogs.    

Can U tell us something about all 4 dogs, how they get along, how they interact, do they tend to go separate ways, or sleep around the same time, play / get active around the same time? --Do they go on off-leash walks as a group, or do the young'uns take off & split up singly like quail while the old fella hangs around yer ankles & shuffles along beside U?

 - terry

 

[WeeTeeCee]

Hi, thanks for all the provided info.  All my dogs are male and intact. They are all working dogs as well as pets and kept in the house.  The oldest will be 11 in October.  The other dog involved will be 4 tomorrow.  We also have a one year old and a seven year old. This only started after our eldest died a year ago.  The two involved used to be fed together, no problems and also all dogs slept together, no problems.  First fight came out of nowhere in the garden.  Since then aggression is always there. Oldest dog now also growls ever before both dogs at put together, like he's physching himself up.  At best it's face to face growling and circling, parading around each other. I just walk away if this happens but usually it kicks off and they have to be seperated.