Front Angulation

[Seraphina]

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In another thread I have mentioned that in sighthounds the angle between scapula and humerus should be approximately 120degrees and was told that the Extended Breed Standard calls for 90degrees. I have just seen The Extended Breed Standard and indeed there is a drawing with 90degrees, however the drawing depicts angle of 115degrees.

I have just checked several other breeds illustrated standards and they all measure the angle the way I do, like the lines in the picture bellow

Links to

Great Dane

German Shepherd

Naturally, both Danes and Shepherds do have 90degree shoulder angulation, but Whippet is built differently.

 

[Shadow Dancer]

What's interesting is that on all of the illustrations, the scapula spine is immediately in the middle of the scapula.

In reality, bones develop differently in every dog so the actual spine of the scapula can be at a slightly different angle.

So, where do you 'measure' the angle? If you follow the scapula spine as you point of reference, your angle may be different from angle if you measure it at the middle of the scapula.

And what about those judges who insist that the height should be measured at the 'highest point'. Where us this then? The highest point of the scapula may not be at the mid-point of the bone itself. OMG what a dilemma and no-one seems to have the answer! :blink:

So many different people have different opinions!

Julie

 

[Seraphina]

In reality, bones develop differently in every dog so the actual spine of the scapula can be at a slightly different angle.
So, where do you 'measure' the angle?  If you follow the scapula spine as you point of reference, your angle may be different from angle if you measure it at the middle of the scapula.

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Absolutely, and I firmly believe that the angulation given should always be prefaced by APPROXIMATELY. But the angle should be the angle of the bones, so the lines should be taken through the middle of the bones. That is a way it has been depicted in all the veterinary anatomy books I learned from about such a things.

There was a time that all breed standards called for 90degrees, which is just simply ridiculous. There is a big difference between breeds skeletal structure.

This picture is from 1941 and the German Shepherd would have been lot more leggy than present dogs, but he was still more angulated than the saluki.

 

[petrezselyem]

Absolutely, and I firmly believe that the angulation given should always be prefaced by APPROXIMATELY. But the angle should be the angle of the bones, so the lines should be taken through the middle of the bones. That is a way it has been depicted in all the veterinary anatomy books I learned from about such a things.

Agree.

I just can't belive that 90 degrees angles could help the running function of the breed. The more opened that angle is the more quick the hound is. This is a simple experience of racing people. Of course there is a point where the steep angulation is not functional and healthy anymore.

I think that 115-120 degrees are true and correct.

I just can't imagine how a whippet looked with REAL 90 degrees front angles and how was it able to run??? :blink:

 

[belge]

I think that 115-120 degrees are true and correct.I just can't imagine how a whippet looked with REAL 90 degrees front angles and how was it able to run???  :blink:

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Whippets are NOT a trotting breed, therefore they do not require a well laid back shoulder. Anyway, where are you going to find such a shoulder in the breed? It is erronious wanting TRAD (tremendous reach and drive) and all show dogs having the double suspension trot a la GSD.

 

[dessie]

I think that 115-120 degrees are true and correct.I just can't imagine how a whippet looked with REAL 90 degrees front angles and how was it able to run???  :blink:

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Whippets are NOT a trotting breed, therefore they do not require a well laid back shoulder. Anyway, where are you going to find such a shoulder in the breed? It is erronious wanting TRAD (tremendous reach and drive) and all show dogs having the double suspension trot a la GSD.

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Of course you can have a well laid back shoulder together with correct length and return of upper arm, you just won't get a 90 degree angulation but even with a 115-120 degree angle you should have reach and drive, otherwise the dog will just mince along!

Here's a pic of my Ch who has good angulation (and has been used by KC accredited trainers in their Conformation & Movement seminars) and he sure can move!!!

 

[dessie]

And here's a pic of that dog's daughter, showing he passes on his good angulation

 

[aslan]

It is erronious wanting all show dogs having the double suspension trot a la GSD.

Whippets however do actually have a brief period of suspension which occurs during the support change-over of the opposite, diagonal pairs of feet.

 

[Seraphina]

It is erronious wanting all show dogs having the double suspension trot a la GSD.

Whippets however do actually have a brief period of suspension which occurs during the support change-over of the opposite, diagonal pairs of feet.

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Of-course, trot by its definition is a movement with double suspension, I assumed Belge meant super extension

 

[Seraphina]

Here's a pic of my Ch who has good angulation (and has been used by KC accredited trainers in their Conformation & Movement seminars) and he sure can move!!!

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He certainly has a plenty of angulation. I just measured him at about 110-115degrees - it is not easy on brindle dog to follow his bones on photos. I would not want a Whippet with much more angulation (= smaller angle) than that.