Genetics Or Management

[jayp]

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I thought would ask opinions on something I have heard often, not just in whippets which has always puzzled me. The statement that if you run a puppy too much when young it will go "Up on the leg". The inferrence being its legs will be longer than if its exercise was controlled. Now I can see that you could easily damage growing bones or strain juvenile ligaments, fair enough, I can also see that too much exersise will run all the weight from a pup that needs to use this energy to grow and in doing so you could hinder or slow down the maturation and the pup will take longer to develop ie drop in brisket, develop spring of rib making it appear "on the leg". But surely the pup will eventually reach its genetic potential, if not starved obviously, Its legs are genetically programmed to be a certain length along with its other physical conformation including its ultimate height.It will just take longer to acheive this genetic programming. What do you all think? :- " Jan

 

[jayp]

Has no one any opinins on this? :- " jan

 

[saraquele]

nope sorry :blink:

i have no experience of this etc but personally i cant see running a whippet to make it go up on the leg :blink:

mine have free running and i know of others who do and it has never affected there growth

 

[dessie]

Definitely management!! Over the years I have seen what could have been promising puppies go to pet homes and be ruined, as far as showing is concerned. They take them out at far too young an age, expecting to exercise them like adult dogs, and then wonder why they don't eat well because they are too tired but don't leave them alone to sleep enough. I don't think it is so much that their legs grow longer but they do not retain bone and condition and therefore look much 'leggier' and shelly. I am not just referring to Whippets either, this also happened with the Cockers and ESS when we bred those.

 

[Seraphina]

Hypothetical question: could it be that show dogs kept locked up in kennel runs without adequate exercise end up with unaturally deep chest, while those dogs allowed to run around as much as they want develop correctly???

Weight bearing exercise is necessary for development of healthy bone, so how much is enough and what is too much? :unsure:

 

[Cartman]

"Old wives" for sure. :cheers:

 

[masta]

old wives tale

 

[dessie]

Hypothetical question: could it be that show dogs kept locked up in kennel runs without adequate exercise end up with unaturally deep chest, while those dogs allowed to run around as much as they want develop correctly??? Weight bearing exercise is necessary for development of healthy bone, so how much is enough and what is too much? :unsure:

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Possibly! But let me clarify some points from my perspective.

My dogs are only 'show dogs' one day a week maximum and they are not 'kept locked up in kennel runs without adequate exercise'. They all live indoors and have access to a large run and garden BUT they are not expected to learn to walk on a lead and go out for inordinately long walks x times a day from about 12 weeks of age. Nor are they pestered by children (or adults, come to that) or adult dogs wanting to be entertained when the puppy wants to sleep. They can run and play and crash out to sleep when they feel like it. They are fed a good quality balanced diet at regular times and not allowed to get either too fat nor too lean.

I have found, over the years, and with all breeds that 9 times out of 10 you can talk to people who buy puppies until you are blue in the face, give them mountains of info on rearing their puppies, and still they go away and do the exact opposite of what you tell them. They then wonder why their puppy does not look like the puppy you kept when there was probably little to choose between them at 8 weeks old.

It does not necessarily mean that the pet puppy is not healthy or happy but as sure as eggs is eggs you would not be able to have it back and put it in the ring. especially the coated breeds because even that seems to be affected.

 

[JAXASS14D]

Definitely management!!  Over the years I have seen what could have been promising puppies go to pet homes and be ruined, as far as showing is concerned.  They take them out at far too young an age, expecting to exercise them like adult dogs, and then wonder why they don't eat well because they are too tired but don't leave them alone to sleep enough.  I don't think it is so much that their legs grow longer but they do not retain bone and condition and therefore look much 'leggier' and shelly.  I am not just referring to Whippets either, this also happened with the Cockers and ESS when we bred those.

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Yes , I totally agree here . My Mum bred Boxers for quite a number of years and saw this happen time and time again where one of her chunky , well boned puppies went off to it's pet home with diet sheet and helpful information only to return for a visit 6 months later with fine bone .

 

[Boxing Helena]

Dessie I agree with you 100% .

How a dog develop depends on how he is raised. Of course you can not control his genes and if its ment to be that the dog will become for example 50 cm, he will become 50 cm, but HOW he will look that's another question.

And I found out, when a dog isn't developed enough in his first age, it will not come later. ( I don't mean finnished, as some dogs are finnished later as others )

I couldn't explain it better how Dessie describes the situation with pet dogs owners. I feel exactely the same.

Although I try again and again to explain it to new owners.

But most of the people think they buy a sighthound and it has to be slim, from the beginning .

 

[whippynit]

Ive been told ( and read ) that running a young whippet too much too young builds up excessive muscle over unfinished bone resulting in the dog being 'muscle bound' and likely to be unsound later in life. Also building up too much muscle on the hindquaters resulting in 'saddlebags' which is undesirable in the show ring as youre looking for good condition but 'flat ' toned condition not bulgey muscles. Dont quote me on that though please im only a newbie and its just what ive heard! :- " :thumbsup:

oops, eidited to say just noticed we're actually talking about the dog growing up in height not about muscle tone! so maybe not relevant! Oh well! :lol:

 

[Macha]

but don't the racing greyhound breeders let their pups free run quite a lot (although they don't do race training until the dogs are near a year old)

 

[parksie]

Hi, Im new to showing and whippets and I was just wondering how you keep the bone? If theres specific diet that you feed them. I have ored with showhorse for along time and I know that feeding them a oodietfrom thestart is essential. But i have never known youngsters to lose bone due to inorrect feeding. They only devleop wrong if they are under or over fed. Please help as I dont wa to ruin m new puppy.

 

[jayp]

hi, Your replies are all very interesting and pretty much what i thought. Genetics will out and the pup will be what he will be sooner or later. Just be guided by the breeder of your pup, he needs good food, plenty of rest, play and fresh air. And :luck: :luck: jan

 

[Seraphina]

Hypothetical question: could it be that show dogs kept locked up in kennel runs without adequate exercise end up with unaturally deep chest, while those dogs allowed to run around as much as they want develop correctly??? Weight bearing exercise is necessary for development of healthy bone, so how much is enough and what is too much? :unsure:

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Possibly! But let me clarify some points from my perspective.

My dogs are only 'show dogs' one day a week maximum and they are not 'kept locked up in kennel runs without adequate exercise'. They all live indoors and have access to a large run and garden BUT they are not expected to learn to walk on a lead and go out for inordinately long walks x times a day from about 12 weeks of age. Nor are they pestered by children (or adults, come to that) or adult dogs wanting to be entertained when the puppy wants to sleep. They can run and play and crash out to sleep when they feel like it. They are fed a good quality balanced diet at regular times and not allowed to get either too fat nor too lean.

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I was not suggesting that your dogs are locked up. I just like to consider all the facts from all possible perspectives

I would have thought though that most pups sold to pet homes will if anything get inadequate exercise, also during the day the children are at school, so the pup should be able to have all his rest he wants.

As I was involved with Great Danes in past, I have put lot of thought into the bone development, and I agree with you 100% about the dogs needing space to exercise at their own pace. But that is difficult for people who only have one dog and small garden. When we lived on acerage I was able to observe what the pups would do naturally, how far they would follow me of their own accord into the padocks. I would go to tend my horses and if the pups got tired they just turned around and go back or stay put waiting for me to come back. That is something too difficult to judge when people go for walk in a strange place. The pup will soldier on does not matter how tired he is, as he would not want to be left behind. I always tell people to watch the pup when walking, the moment he stops walking with "happy bounce", carry him.

However, there is the other extreme, something that was routinely done 30 years ago to Danes, and that is the believe that bone problems can be avoided by crating the pup for most of the day. :rant:

My pups run with the adults, but believe me it is not Genevieve who pesters the pups

 

[JAX]

but don't the racing greyhound breeders let their pups free run quite a lot (although they don't do race training until the dogs are near a year old)

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There is a big differance between running free and galloping . Racing greyhounds arnt allowed to even go on a racetrack until 15 months old even then. Ive known breeders wait even longer before they put their dogs through the strenuos task of full out racing ,

My friend has a litter of 20 months who ( because of their size ) has only just started taking them to the track , to have taken them any earlier would most certainly put too much strain on there limbs and hopefully their racing career will be a fast :luck: and prosprous one :luck: :luck:

 

[zilloot]

I give all my puppies off lead exercise and find that if they get used to it from an early age they don't charge about madly all the time because it's not a novelty. They exercise on rough ground and build muscle at their own rate and become full strided and sure-footed. But this is only for about 3/4 hour a day - no longer or they become too exhausted and just run off all the calories their food provides for growth and development.

I have seen dogs that don't get free running become short strided and 'up on their toes' and look 'leggy' due to lack of muscle. When they are let off they don't know what to do with their legs!

 

[jayp]

I give all my puppies off lead exercise and find that if they get used to it from an early age they don't charge about madly all the time because it's not a novelty.  They exercise on rough ground and build muscle at their own rate and become full strided and sure-footed.  But this is only for about 3/4 hour a day - no longer or they become too exhausted and just run off all the calories their food provides for growth and development.
I have seen dogs that don't get free running become short strided and 'up on their toes' and look 'leggy' due to lack of muscle.  When they are let off they don't know what to do with their legs!

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i agree i think pups need to run but as has been said at their own pace with siblings but not chasing after adults, and maybe show puppies mature too early. any young animal should look what it is a youngster. A young horse, for instance can be recognised as such, if a yearling horse especially a racehorse looked like an adult it would not mature into a winner.

 

[Seraphina]

A young horse, for instance can be recognised as such, if a yearling horse especially a racehorse looked like an adult it would not mature into a winner.

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The best dogs I had were all very slow maturing ones, and they looked great well after they were 10.

 

[Ridgesetter]

Genetics will influence how the dog turns out in respect of size, legginess, colour, etc. Management will determine musculation and condition. Different lines develop differently.

Cheers