Help, How Do I Train My Lurcher Not To Chase?

[Mr Whippy]

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I really need some advice from anyone who works their dogs as I figure that they're probably the best people to ask how to control a dog as to where and when they can chase.

My lurcher is a rescue dog who I suspect was worked in his previous life. I have been training him for the past year in basic obedience as he appeared to have had no training when we took him in. We have an extremely strong bond and when he does chase he has so far always returned promptly as he has no interest in catching, just chasing, which is probably why the travellers dumped him. He is fantastically obedient, that is right up until the moment he spots something of interest, be it dog, sheep, rabbit etc If I see him spot it I can get his attention and recall him, if I wait a split second too long he's gone and won't return till the chase is over, sometimes over ridiculous distances. He once ran at least half a mile over the fell after sheep to the edge of a sheer drop. It was only the sheeps knowledge of the area that stopped him from running over the edge. I really need to get his prey drive under control for his own safety. My uncle had a similar problem and his dog ran into a road chasing a cat and was killed outright. I live rurally so although traffic isn't the major issue, getting lost or badly hurt on barbed wire, being shot by a farmer etc is.

Today was a prime example, I struggle for places to let my dogs free run as I live rurally, so today seized the chance as the farmer had taken the stock off the field with the footpath running through. When my dog is offlead I watch him like a hawk and try to keep him occupied, recalling, ball games etc anything to prevent him trying to hunt. Unfortunately, we startled a hare, my lurcher bolted after it, straight through the one dog sized gap in the fence and disappeared into the scrubland beyond. I presume he lost sight of the hare as he returned within 30 seconds but I can't keep having this happen. He's chased deer, sheep, dogs... I really don't want him to have to live his life on a lead. I do try to only let him off in fenced areas but as today proves even that isn't foolproof. Sorry to be long winded but I wanted to try and give a full picture for people to work with. Any help would be gratefully accepted.

 

[Mr Whippy]

I just wanted to add that I'm not a total killjoy who freaks every time my dog wants to chase something. I just want to ensure his safety, if it's safe for him to chase bunnies etc then he can do it but at the moment his behaviour could end up in him being hurt or getting lost.

 

[markbrick]

since he is an older dog and you dont know his history its going to be a lot harder then said,but someone i know had a similar type of situation and he tried everything,he purchased a shock coller and it worked,is this dog a saluki x

 

[glenn]

since he is an older dog and you dont know his history its going to be a lot harder then said,but someone i know had a similar type of situation and he tried everything,he purchased a shock coller and it worked,is this dog a saluki x

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what a disgusting thing to use :rant: :rant: :rant: some people dont deserve dogs. and to advocate the use of one youre as bad :rant:

 

[urchin]

Oh here we go, back to the shock collar - evil or useful in the right hands 'debate'

Firstly, my understanding is that these collars do not shock! Anyone who has ever used a tens machine or those electric toning pads will tell you that the sensation is nothing like a shock - not even a static one.

E collars work like a tens machine and make the muscles contract - on the highest settings i bet that would hurt, on the lower ones my guess is it's just an odd sensation that dogs don't understand (hence they come back to you to sort it out)

this is, in essence, no different to the spray collars, or high pitched noise ones (whose name escapes me!)

I say 'my guess' based on what I have been told as so far I've not tried it. But i am considering it.

I have 2 whippets with phenomenal prey drive who dont distinguish between what they are allowed to hunt and what they are not. Consequently, unless I know for absolute sure there's no livestock in the area, they walk on leads only.

My plan for this year is to livestock train the boys because we are so limited in where they can run free - this has a massive impact on their lives - and mine!

I will try the 'slow' methods first, but I am prepared to investigate e-collars if I'm not successful.

I would need to satisfy myself first hand that what I have been told is true, and yes i would try it on my neck -

I will admit when I first heard of these collars I had the same reaction that you did glenn - but i was imagining tazers for dogs, and whatever they turn out to be, they aren't that!

 

[markbrick]

since he is an older dog and you dont know his history its going to be a lot harder then said,but someone i know had a similar type of situation and he tried everything,he purchased a shock coller and it worked,is this dog a saluki x

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what a disgusting thing to use :rant: :rant: :rant: some people dont deserve dogs. and to advocate the use of one youre as bad :rant:

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its an adult dog with no history i suppose a 12 bore cartridge would be cheaper as thats what it would be gettin if it chased my sheep,if a shock coller works it can save a dogs life and a sheeps,now wake up glenn and dont come out with stupid comments,mark

 

[glenn]

since he is an older dog and you dont know his history its going to be a lot harder then said,but someone i know had a similar type of situation and he tried everything,he purchased a shock coller and it worked,is this dog a saluki x

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​

what a disgusting thing to use :rant: :rant: :rant: some people dont deserve dogs. and to advocate the use of one youre as bad :rant:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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its an adult dog with no history i suppose a 12 bore cartridge would be cheaper as thats what it would be gettin if it chased my sheep,if a shock coller works it can save a dogs life and a sheeps,now wake up glenn and dont come out with stupid comments,mark

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most men have wives or girlfriends (w00t) (w00t)

 

[posh totty]

any form of lead collar etc can beused lethally against a dog is someone was evil enough too, although i have my reservations about shock collars , i would consider their use rather then my dog get shock or worrying stock

 

[affieluver]

i personally wouldnt use a shock collar as i think they only mask the problem and i have seen dogs become scared to have anything round their necks after using one.

The only thing i would say is if your dog is unpredictable around livestock take him to a good dog trainer in your area work on your recall and general obedience first and then introduce him to a long line around maybe one or two sheep if you can farmers are quite willing to help out you just have to ask unfortunately there is no quick solution and it will take a while even then your dog may never be 100% livestock proof its best to use your judgement and get the help of a good trainer to help you GOOD LUCK :luck: keep us updated :thumbsup:

 

[affieluver]

any form of lead collar etc can beused lethally against a dog is someone was evil enough too, although i have my reservations about shock collars , i would consider their use rather then my dog get shock or worrying stock

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sorry tanya not disagreeing with you just would personally never use one hope you didnt take any offence by my post :thumbsup:

 

[kris]

not the shock collar deabate again! (w00t) lol!the welsh assembly have already banned the use of these, i hope the uk parliament isnt far behind them.ive copied and pasted this reply from a friend who is a human not a dog psychologist as i think its one of the more unbiased but sensible replies ive seen on this subject.

If anything they do have their place in the Gun Dog world even though other methods even in that environment are used. Will it work err yes in skilled hands. Trouble is you need training in the use of something like that and this is why I support a ban on all shock collars to the public. If you read up on Gun Dog training the basic premis is not to use the collar to shock but to use it to teach the dog that when the owner calls the dog feels best when its at its owners feet, the way to look at this is this hide from your dog to make him feel lost and watch his behaviour he'll go into a bit of an alert and slight panic and look for you - that and only that is the level of discomfort that should be given! The collar is by no means should create a shock of more discomfort than a firm NO - clearly this can be argued against but I believe like all tools a master could show how this would be more effective and more humane than a load of screaming, treating up, pissed off human, or a lost tracking dog and so on.

Are you a gun dog master that has years of experience, if like me the answer is no then that should also be the answer to your request to buy one :- )

This is what will happen if you do, you run the risk of; Setting it too high for your dog. You give a recal and shock when they dont return dog will learn your voice means pain. Your dog may be with others and see a dog it doesnt like for no reason zap shock now it wants to kill all dogs, you may shock him near kids, now wants to kill all kids. Shocking itself may make the dog develop mental problems. BUT the biggest by far with all shock collars is the dog can and if used long enough DIE! Nope they dont tell you that. But in psychology we like to shock a few animals in order to create stress and find out how it effects living things after all the WHO state stress is the no1 killer in world.

So we electrocuted a load of monkeys, not with high volts but enough to cause major discomfort and up as high as a cry (think dog yelp) their hormones raced after prolonged shocks they would wear out their neurotransmitters for stress related hormones and die or suffer mental problems. Then we shocked them on commands to let them know it was coming, they died and developed mental problems quicker. Then we trained monkeys to shock other monkeys on the hour. The monkeys getting the shock suffered as in the first two but also the monkeys doing the shocking who never recieved any shock died very quick from tumours in their gut developed from being stressed out. Then we trained the monkey to shock himself and these ones died and developed mental problems very fast indeed! (these experiements are now thankfully banned and we is not I but we in the field of psychology)

Therefore anyone fancy shocking their pet? It could kill them and you. Dont get me wrong pain is a fantastic learning tool for a dog its god damn bloody brilliant! Example I have a wood stove, it gets hot, my dog touched it with his nose once, jumped back rubbing his nose and never touched it again - very fast learning took place. As with all species learning from pain is best left to the animal ie the animal gets something wrong the body says to the brain dont ever let that happen again, the brain goes OK OK OK :- ) Considering the speed at which pain can teach and embed a behaviour, forgetting humane reasons for a moment, it simply can not be used becasue it is too easy to embedd something that you did not wish that will have ever lasting effects. Not to mention the fact animals and humans get used to pain and fight back hence it ceases to become a learning tool.

Many of us keep terriers, their hunting skills were learnt through painful trial and error - rarely would a human understand the process and hence it should never be used as a learning tool other than a last resort by exceptional professionals where all else has failed and the animal will be PTS if the severe problem is not fixed.

Read this http://www.clickertrainusa.com/learningtheorymain.htm it will, without having to pick up psyche books, explain pain and reward as learning outcomes. You are not wrong for thinking pain can be used to teach recall - it can. But it is a million times easier to use positive reinforcement. It is far more humane, it is far more healthy for the dog and for you. I beleive I can teach any dog, that does not have mental or massive social problems, recall in less than 4 weeks.

Again as far as I am concerned, controversial no its not it is science and it does have its place in the science of animal behaviour (thats real scientists not micky mouse dog behaviourists that learn no more than what is on that link) but these things need to be banned becaue of all the reasons above in both this and other peoples posts. Stick with reward based it will improve your handling skills, your bond with your dog will grow, your dog will be less stressed and more happy which will mean more health. Plus if you get it wrong you wont kill any children or other animals and you wont have to PTS your dog or worst put it to rescue so someone else can have it and maybe it will kill them.

In short, your best bet is dump it and join a dog class recommended by the rspca and read that link and look at these examples of how to train the basics (you can do these without a clicker too, just use the words good boy in a high voice) Good luck and let us know how you get on :- )

http://www.clickertrainusa.com/clicker-training-videos.htm

PS I hope that provided an unbiased views of negative and positive operant conditioning.

 

[Mr Whippy]

Thanks for the replies so far. personally I'm not interested in exploring the shock collar route as he is a very nervous dog and and any form of aversive training sets him back dramatically, as little as a raised voice upsets him. The sheep chasing I referred to was a one off that happened high on the fells when we unexpectedly came across some sheep who were hidden. I don't have my dogs offlead where I know there to be lifestock and never have done even though I had a rock solid collie for the past 16 years, this was an unfortunate one off and on that occasion resulted in my dog walking the remaining eight hours on lead despite us not being able to see sheep anywhere. I simply included it as an example of how far he has the potential of running and the lack of regard he has for his own safety. (The sheep he chased were Herdwicks they are not farmed as such and pretty much live wild, farmers are subsidised to look after them as they maintain the Lakeland fells in the ways visitors expect to see them.) I train him onlead around sheep everyday and he now largely ignores them but I still wouldn't have him offlead where there is stock, I won't even let him offlead if there are stock in adjoining fields/in sight. My main query was as to whether there are any positive methods I could use to stop him in mid chase as I can't prevent deer/rabbits/dogs appearing when we walk. If all else fails I'm considering moving house so I can buy one with it's own land that I can secure for my dogs use.

 

[posh totty]

any form of lead collar etc can beused lethally against a dog is someone was evil enough too, although i have my reservations about shock collars , i would consider their use rather then my dog get shock or worrying stock

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sorry tanya not disagreeing with you just would personally never use one hope you didnt take any offence by my post :thumbsup:

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no offence taken hun , these are an emotive subject , and should only ever be used IMO as a very last resort to prevent death and or injury, a hound has the basic right to run free and not being able to do that isnt what they want

 

[affieluver]

Thanks for the replies so far. personally I'm not interested in exploring the shock collar route as he is a very nervous dog and and any form of aversive training sets him back dramatically, as little as a raised voice upsets him. The sheep chasing I referred to was a one off that happened high on the fells when we unexpectedly came across some sheep who were hidden. I don't have my dogs offlead where I know there to be lifestock and never have done even though I had a rock solid collie for the past 16 years, this was an unfortunate one off and on that occasion resulted in my dog walking the remaining eight hours on lead despite us not being able to see sheep anywhere. I simply included it as an example of how far he has the potential of running and the lack of regard he has for his own safety. (The sheep he chased were Herdwicks they are not farmed as such and pretty much live wild, farmers are subsidised to look after them as they maintain the Lakeland fells in the ways visitors expect to see them.) I train him onlead around sheep everyday and he now largely ignores them but I still wouldn't have him offlead where there is stock, I won't even let him offlead if there are stock in adjoining fields/in sight.  My main query was as to whether there are any positive methods I could use to stop him in mid chase as I can't prevent deer/rabbits/dogs appearing when we walk. If all else fails I'm considering moving house so I can buy one with it's own land that I can secure for my dogs use.

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OH BLESS !! DONT WORRY ALL US SIGHTHOUND LOVERS HAVE BEEN THERE AT SOME POINT YOU HAVE THE UNFORTUNATE SITUATION THAT YOU HAVE LITTLE HISTORY OF THIS DOG I STILL SAY YOU NEED TO FIND YOURSELF A GOOD TRAINER IN YOUR AREA TO HELP WITH RECALL PROGRESS WILL BE SLOW LET US KNOW HOW YOU GET ON WHATEVER YOU DECIDE :thumbsup:

 

[affieluver]

any form of lead collar etc can beused lethally against a dog is someone was evil enough too, although i have my reservations about shock collars , i would consider their use rather then my dog get shock or worrying stock

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

sorry tanya not disagreeing with you just would personally never use one hope you didnt take any offence by my post :thumbsup:

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no offence taken hun , these are an emotive subject , and should only ever be used IMO as a very last resort to prevent death and or injury, a hound has the basic right to run free and not being able to do that isnt what they want

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EXACTLY GOOD POINT THERE TANYA HOUNDS DO NEED TO RUN ITS WHAT THEY LOVE HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT NON PED RACING OR LURE COURSING A GREAT WAY FOR THEM TO LET OFF STEAM IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT :thumbsup:

 

[spiritual one]

not the shock collar deabate again! (w00t) lol!the welsh assembly have already banned the use of these, i hope the uk parliament isnt far behind them.ive copied and pasted this reply from a friend who is a human not a dog psychologist as i think its one of the more unbiased but sensible replies ive seen on this subject.

If anything they do have their place in the Gun Dog world even though other methods even in that environment are used. Will it work err yes in skilled hands. Trouble is you need training in the use of something like that and this is why I support a ban on all shock collars to the public. If you read up on Gun Dog training the basic premis is not to use the collar to shock but to use it to teach the dog that when the owner calls the dog feels best when its at its owners feet, the way to look at this is this hide from your dog to make him feel lost and watch his behaviour he'll go into a bit of an alert and slight panic and look for you - that and only that is the level of discomfort that should be given! The collar is by no means should create a shock of more discomfort than a firm NO - clearly this can be argued against but I believe like all tools a master could show how this would be more effective and more humane than a load of screaming, treating up, pissed off human, or a lost tracking dog and so on.

Are you a gun dog master that has years of experience, if like me the answer is no then that should also be the answer to your request to buy one :- )

This is what will happen if you do, you run the risk of; Setting it too high for your dog. You give a recal and shock when they dont return dog will learn your voice means pain. Your dog may be with others and see a dog it doesnt like for no reason zap shock now it wants to kill all dogs, you may shock him near kids, now wants to kill all kids. Shocking itself may make the dog develop mental problems. BUT the biggest by far with all shock collars is the dog can and if used long enough DIE! Nope they dont tell you that. But in psychology we like to shock a few animals in order to create stress and find out how it effects living things after all the WHO state stress is the no1 killer in world.

So we electrocuted a load of monkeys, not with high volts but enough to cause major discomfort and up as high as a cry (think dog yelp) their hormones raced after prolonged shocks they would wear out their neurotransmitters for stress related hormones and die or suffer mental problems. Then we shocked them on commands to let them know it was coming, they died and developed mental problems quicker. Then we trained monkeys to shock other monkeys on the hour. The monkeys getting the shock suffered as in the first two but also the monkeys doing the shocking who never recieved any shock died very quick from tumours in their gut developed from being stressed out. Then we trained the monkey to shock himself and these ones died and developed mental problems very fast indeed! (these experiements are now thankfully banned and we is not I but we in the field of psychology)

Therefore anyone fancy shocking their pet? It could kill them and you. Dont get me wrong pain is a fantastic learning tool for a dog its god damn bloody brilliant! Example I have a wood stove, it gets hot, my dog touched it with his nose once, jumped back rubbing his nose and never touched it again - very fast learning took place. As with all species learning from pain is best left to the animal ie the animal gets something wrong the body says to the brain dont ever let that happen again, the brain goes OK OK OK :- ) Considering the speed at which pain can teach and embed a behaviour, forgetting humane reasons for a moment, it simply can not be used becasue it is too easy to embedd something that you did not wish that will have ever lasting effects. Not to mention the fact animals and humans get used to pain and fight back hence it ceases to become a learning tool.

Many of us keep terriers, their hunting skills were learnt through painful trial and error - rarely would a human understand the process and hence it should never be used as a learning tool other than a last resort by exceptional professionals where all else has failed and the animal will be PTS if the severe problem is not fixed.

Read this http://www.clickertrainusa.com/learningtheorymain.htm it will, without having to pick up psyche books, explain pain and reward as learning outcomes. You are not wrong for thinking pain can be used to teach recall - it can. But it is a million times easier to use positive reinforcement. It is far more humane, it is far more healthy for the dog and for you. I beleive I can teach any dog, that does not have mental or massive social problems, recall in less than 4 weeks.

Again as far as I am concerned, controversial no its not it is science and it does have its place in the science of animal behaviour (thats real scientists not micky mouse dog behaviourists that learn no more than what is on that link) but these things need to be banned becaue of all the reasons above in both this and other peoples posts. Stick with reward based it will improve your handling skills, your bond with your dog will grow, your dog will be less stressed and more happy which will mean more health. Plus if you get it wrong you wont kill any children or other animals and you wont have to PTS your dog or worst put it to rescue so someone else can have it and maybe it will kill them.

In short, your best bet is dump it and join a dog class recommended by the rspca and read that link and look at these examples of how to train the basics (you can do these without a clicker too, just use the words good boy in a high voice) Good luck and let us know how you get on :- )

http://www.clickertrainusa.com/clicker-training-videos.htm

PS I hope that provided an unbiased views of negative and positive operant conditioning.

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[joe90]

since he is an older dog and you dont know his history its going to be a lot harder then said,but someone i know had a similar type of situation and he tried everything,he purchased a shock coller and it worked,is this dog a saluki x

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what a disgusting thing to use :rant: :rant: :rant: some people dont deserve dogs. and to advocate the use of one youre as bad :rant:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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its an adult dog with no history i suppose a 12 bore cartridge would be cheaper as thats what it would be gettin if it chased my sheep,if a shock coller works it can save a dogs life and a sheeps,now wake up glenn and dont come out with stupid comments,mark

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mark am i right in thinking that if a dog chases sheep then the farmer has a right to kill the dog?

 

[joe90]

Oh here we go, back to the shock collar - evil or useful in the right hands 'debate'
Firstly, my understanding is that these collars do not shock! Anyone who has ever used a tens machine or those electric toning pads will tell you that the sensation is nothing like a shock - not even a static one.

E collars work like a tens machine and make the muscles contract - on the highest settings i bet that would hurt, on the lower ones my guess is it's just an odd sensation that dogs don't understand (hence they come back to you to sort it out)

this is, in essence, no different to the spray collars, or high pitched noise ones (whose name escapes me!)

I say 'my guess' based on what I have been told as so far I've not tried it. But i am considering it.

I have 2 whippets with phenomenal prey drive who dont distinguish between what they are allowed to hunt and what they are not. Consequently, unless I know for absolute sure there's no livestock in the area, they walk on leads only.

My plan for this year is to livestock train the boys because we are so limited in where they can run free - this has a massive impact on their lives - and mine!

I will try the 'slow' methods first, but I am prepared to investigate e-collars if I'm not successful.

I would need to satisfy myself first hand that what I have been told is true, and yes i would try it on my neck -

I will admit when I first heard of these collars I had the same reaction that you did glenn - but i was imagining tazers for dogs, and whatever they turn out to be, they aren't that!

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electric shock collars dont hurt at all, they do is scare you i had it done to me and it didnt hurt at all but it would make you stop what you are doing which is what they are meant to do an electric shock from an electrical item is a million times worse

 

[markbrick]

since he is an older dog and you dont know his history its going to be a lot harder then said,but someone i know had a similar type of situation and he tried everything,he purchased a shock coller and it worked,is this dog a saluki x

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

what a disgusting thing to use :rant: :rant: :rant: some people dont deserve dogs. and to advocate the use of one youre as bad :rant:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

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its an adult dog with no history i suppose a 12 bore cartridge would be cheaper as thats what it would be gettin if it chased my sheep,if a shock coller works it can save a dogs life and a sheeps,now wake up glenn and dont come out with stupid comments,mark

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mark am i right in thinking that if a dog chases sheep then the farmer has a right to kill the dog?

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yes shoot 1st and ask questions later,usually with a big fine for the dog owner so a little zap is nothing to a 22 bullet are a shot gun cartridge,as the dog in question was rehomed better safe then sorry,mark

 

[ladyp]

YES THE DOG WILL GET SHOT BY THE FARMER IF SEEN TO BE WORRY HIS SHEEP.ON THE TV LAST NIGHT IN SWINDON A LAMB WAS LEFT WITHOUT HIS MUM,THE EWE WAS CHASED BY THE DOG,AWFUL INJURINGS,SO THE POOR LAMB HAD NO MUM.THEY ARE STILL LOOKING FOR THE DOG THAT DID THIS. :- "