Help how to know my girls season has passed

[Michelle monroe]

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I posted a thread previously about my girl, Millie who’s in heat, living with Cubley who was ‘intact’. I got some brilliant advice and learned a lot I didn’t know, so thank you so much. Cubley’s since been neutered and is doing brilliantly. I know he can still get her pregnant as his op was only on Tuesday, but how can I tell when Millie is out of heat? Things are starting to calm down in the house as we have 3 boys and 2 girls. The other boys have been done and the other girl is only a puppy. Cubley was the only one not done but that’s happened now. I’ve kept boys and girls totally separate throughout little Millie’s season as this is the first one since she had pups so would have been way too soon for her to get pregnant again. At the height of things, all the dogs were going mad to get to her especially Cubley who was trying every way possible to find her and getting really distressed. Things have calmed down considerably . Physically everything is going down on Millie but I don’t know what to look for to know that her season is definitely over. I don’t want to make the mistake of putting them all back together too soon especially as Cubley could still mate with her. It’s not hard to keep them separate because we’ve got a 400yr old house so it’s not a conventional layout and has rooms in odd places, so they’re all comfortable. But they’re definitely missing all being together as usually they’re always together. Just because things are much calmer with the boys, is this an indication that her season might be finishing soon? What do I look for on Millie to get an idea it’s passed? When I let they all back together, should I introduce Millie back slowly? How will I be able to tell the difference between the boys fussing round her because they’re pleased to see her or fussing because of their hormones? Just before her season started Millie was a terrible flirt but obviously I’m not going to know how she’s going to behave till they’re all together. Does anyone have any advice on how to introduce her back. Sorry for all the questions but have learned so much on this forum, so any advice, thoughts, information will be very gratefully received

 

[leashedForLife]

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If it were me?
I wouldn't look for "signs". // I'd go back to my calendar WHERE I MARKED HER 1st DAY OF ESTRUS & keep them apart for 4-weeks from that date.
Plus, 60-days from that date, i'd pre-schedule her spay with my vet.

How old is the F pup? - bitch pups who are 4.5 to 5-MO can come into estrus simply b/c they're around another F who's in heat. // "the dormitory effect" operates in F-dogs as well as in F-humans; Fs synchronize cycles.

- terry

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[Michelle monroe]

Thank you Terry. My girl has been in heat for nearly 3 weeks, about 2 weeks 5 days at the moment.
The pup is 5 months and is showing no signs of coming into season and the boys are showing absolutely no hormonal interest at all yet. I didn’t know that Millie’s season could bring on Honey’s, so that’s a really good thing to know. The timing of getting Honey spayed is an ongoing discussion, which I’d appreciate your take on. We’re definitely not going to breed from Honey so she will be getting spayed but when is the question. We asked 2 vets about the best time to get her done and both said it was personal preference. Though we have decided on her having the keyhole surgery as vet said it was a less invasive operation and better recovery time. My husband wants her to be spayed when she’s a bit older which would mean she’d have a season. She’s very much still a little pup with a lot of growing to do as you can imagine. My husband wants to wait till she’s older because he’s worried about the anaesthetic and the op in general while she’s still so little. Along with the personal preference advice, the vet made lots of references about the dangers of surgery when she was explaining the difference between keyhole and traditional spaying. It’s this that has made him want to wait till she’s bigger. All the boys in the house have been neutered though I know they’ll still try to get to her. I know from reading your post that you’re an advocate for having dogs neutered for the long term health benefits which I totally agree with. Have you got any thoughts on the age females should be spayed? She will get done which is definite, just the age question is the problem. This is Millie’s first season after having her first litter, so were going to let her have another season after this one, breed her once more then get her spayed. Do you think that 2 seasons between litters is about the right length of time?

 

[leashedForLife]

... [Millie] has been in heat for nearly 3 weeks, about 2 weeks 5 days at the moment.
The pup [Honey] is 5 months and shows no signs of coming into season - the boys are showing absolutely no ... interest yet.
I didn’t know that Millie’s season could bring on Honey’s, so that’s a really good thing to know.

The timing of getting Honey spayed is an ongoing discussion... We’re definitely not going to breed from Honey, so she will be spayed, but when is the question. We asked 2 vets about the best time to get her done and both said it was personal preference. Though we have decided on her having the keyhole surgery as vet said it was a less invasive operation and better recovery time.
My husband wants her to be spayed when she’s a bit older which would mean she’d have a season. She’s very much still a little pup with a lot of growing to do as you can imagine.

My husband wants to wait till she’s older because he’s worried about the anaesthetic and the op in general while she’s still so little. Along with the personal preference advice, the vet [spoke] about the dangers of surgery [while] explaining the difference between keyhole & traditional spay... that has made him want to wait till she’s bigger.
... Have you got any thoughts on the age females should be spayed? She will get done which is definite, just the age question is the problem.

This is Millie’s first season after her first litter, so were going to let her have another season after this one, breed her once more. then get her spayed. Do you think that 2 seasons between litters is about the right length of time?

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I don't know why the vet was so concerned about the hazards of GA - yes, any surgery carries risk, but statistically, the safest age at which to spay or neuter is when pups or kittens are under 3-MO. Early AKA pediatric desex or pediatric neuter [which refers to both sexes - "spay" is specific to Fs] has multiple advantages.
They're fasted for a shorter time - hours, vs overnight; they are under GA for a shorter time; they bleed less, as they have fewer blood-vessels in their sexual organs than older pups & kittens; they SCAR less, by which i don't refer to appearances but internal scarring, which can complicate their lives in the future: bladder adhesions & other scarring inside the abdomen. They're up & eating & playing faster than older pups & kits. They literal HEAL faster than at any other age.
They have the fewest complications of all ages of dogs or cats, everything from death to infection to reactions to stitches - **all** complications are markedly lower.

The next-safest age is pre-pubertal - B4 1st estrus in Fs, B4 viable sperm in Ms, & done between 14-WO & 6-MO in both sexes. // Given that an intact-F just went thru estrus in the same household, i'd assume that Honey, the daughter, won't delay her 1st estrus till she's 7 to 9-mos old. At 5-MO now, she's likely to be in estrus within a month, or even a fortnight.

The next-safest age for desex is pubertal: done between 5 & 7-MO. This is the "traditional" age to S/N, but statistically, it's not the safest. They must be fasted for 12-hrs, they bleed more, have more post-op pain, have more complications, recover slower, heal slower, etc.
The highest risk is for adult dogs & cats - statistically. // That doesn't mean that adult dogs & cats should not be spayed or neutered; only that it's not ideal timing. If that's when they come into a shelter or rescue, U can't turn back the clock.
Surgery, suture materials, anaesthetics, pain meds, etc, have all made enormous advances in my lifetime; S/N is not regarded as scary surgery, even for adult dogs & cats. Yes, they -could- die or get infections, but it's not very likely.

However, there's one added risk yer vet apparently did not discuss, specific to F dogs.
Spaying her BEFORE her 1st estrus virtually eliminates any chance that she'll later develop breast cancer, AKA mammary cancer, which is 4X as common in F dogs as it is in F humans.
Nearly 7 of every 10 dogs diagnosed with mammary cancer in the U-S are euthanized at the same vet-appt as they are diagnosed, b/c by the time they have symptoms & are taken to the vet, it's already metastasized to their lungs, & there's no treatment. [The actual stat is 68%.]

I'd spay her ASAP - there's no reason to wait, & every reason to do it now, B4 she pops into estrus. "Waiting" won't add safety.

- terry

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[PWDmum]

A season will last around 3 weeks, give or take it will all depend on the bitch, so I would probable keep him away from her for another week, maybe a little longer to be on the safe side. I am sorry not sure where you are from, but in the UK most vets will advise to spay around 12 weeks after they have finished season ( in between seasons ) due to less blood loss and hormones settleing back down. It’s a,so worth remembering that castrated Dog can and will mate and tie with a inseason bitch, the only thing they can’t do is produce pups, again it wil all depend on individual dogs,

 

[JoanneF]

the only thing they can’t do is produce pups

In this case though, the dog has only just been neutered (saw this in another thread) so remember OP that he will still produce viable sperm for a few weeks.

 

[Michelle monroe]

Thank you Terry. I can show this to my husband to put his mind at rest. It was the vet that made him nervous. I’ve always wanted to get her done early as I don’t see the point of waiting until she’s had a season. When they get spayed whether now or in a few months, will that reduce the risk of mammary cancer? I know that having all dogs of whatever gender neutered reduces a lot of potential health problems. I really don’t understand people’s objections to neutering. Surely doing everything you can to keep them healthy is by far the most important thing. Do you have any thoughts on keyhole neutering vs the more traditional type? The vet said it’s less invasive, she’d recover more quickly and the surgery would be shorter so she’d be in less pain. Do you agree with this? From what I gather, people opt for the bigger surgery due to cost as keyhole surgery is considerably more expensive. My view is that I’m responsible for this beautiful little life who depends on me to look after her and if it’s more beneficial, another £200 is worth paying. Her well being is far more important.
On another note could I ask your opinion about the amount of contact they need with other dogs? We have 5 dogs 3 boys - a German shepherd and 2 shih tzus and 2 girls - a cockerpoo and the pup who’s a cockerpoo shih tzu x cross. They all get on very well together, have their own little dynamic and don’t like being apart. We exercise them on safe private land and never take them for walks in public places. This isn’t due in any way to their behaviour but other dog owners. When we used to take them in public, Clarence the GSD, has gone to play with other dogs and the owners, without exception, totally freak out and shout at him and some have tried to hit him. Firstly, I put Clarence back on his lead but I’ve had massive arguments with these owners for abusing my boy, just because he’s a big German shepherd and their breed has a bad reputation. He’s very protective of me as is his nature to guard, so when someone is literally in my face shouting, he’ll start to get very upset and show what could be construed as aggressive behaviour. However he doesn’t try to bite but will get agitated and bark and occasionally snarl. Eventually I’d had enough and found private land to exercise them on so they can run around happily without Clarence being vilified. The owner breeds whippets and about once a week, he lets them out to all play together with no problems. About once a week/fortnight, I take them to a socialisation centre just so they can be around, and play with other dogs. But really they’re not that bothered because they like being and playing with each other. They go purely because I don’t want them to miss out because we walk them privately but after about 20 minutes, they’ve had enough and want to go home. They just come and lie down next to me, which is their little sign for home time. Do you think going to the socialisation centre is necessary? I think I may be projecting what I think they need rather than what they actually want. If they’re happy playing together, is there any point? I’d really appreciate your view on this. We play games with them a lot at home to keep them mentally stimulated and plenty of individual fuss time. They’re all very happy and settled dogs. The socialisation centre was recently closed for 6 weeks while they had building work done and they didn’t seem to miss going at all. Sorry for the long post and lots of questions but you’re obviously very knowledgeable and I’m very interested in your views. Many thanks in advance

 

[Michelle monroe]

JennyF and PWDmum. Thank you very much for your advice. At the moment, physically Millie appears to be coming to the end of her season but I’m not sure. Her vulva has gone down considerably and is no where near so swollen. She’s not giving off as much heat and her teats are much softer. However, she’s still showing interest in the boys. We’re keeping the boys and girls separate but she’s still going up to their room and giving the odd bark but not as frenzied as before. At the height of her season, the boys were going wappy trying to get at her. However, their attention has definitely declined dramatically. They haven’t been around her at all during her season as until Thursday one of the boys hadn’t been neutered. But because he only got done 3 days ago, I know he could still successfully mate with her. This is her first season after having a litter so it’s far too soon for her to get pregnant again. I don’t want to put them back together too early but don’t know how to tell her season has finished. It’s been 2 weeks and 5 days since she started so it’s going to be over soon but how will I know? Is there any test the vet could do to check or is that just unnecessary? What kind of things should I be looking out for to get an idea it’s over? Btw am in the UK

 

[PWDmum]

. This is her first season after having a litter so it’s far too soon for her to get pregnant again.

Not sure where you got that information from, but she can get pregnant again after her litter...... it’s called back to back breeding where you breed a bitch on consecutive seasons....I.e season , litter , season, litter !

Personally I would go for Keyhole spay, ( if you can afford it ) as it is less invasive and the recovery is quicker.

Side note I realise you boy has only just been done, so it goes without saying you need to keep him away, my post referred in general about castratedmales tieing with a Bitch .

Regards mammary cancers, the risk is lower in spayed bitches but it does no eliminate it completely , they can still get mammary tumours.
It

 

[PWDmum]

Just to add I am not against neutering per say but people should do a lot of reseach beforehand, there is the belief that spay and castration will irradiate most cancers and health problems , this is not true and male dog can still get prostrate cancer as a bitch can still get mammary cancer, a bit h can also suffer premature incontenence and in some study’s suggest risk of ostiosarcoma in some breeds. Spaying and castrating young puppies before they are allowed to mature is criminal , at least allow them to take advantage of the crucial hormones they naturally produce to ensure healthy growth and stability of mind.

 

[JudyN]

Not sure where you got that information from, but she can get pregnant again after her litter...... it’s called back to back breeding where you breed a bitch on consecutive seasons....I.e season , litter , season, litter !

I think Michelle meant that it would be very undesirable to breed again so soon, rather than that it wasn't possible.

There are so many studies about the pros and cons of neutering at different times (or at all), done by people with different vested interests and using tools and methods some would question. So it's vital that people don't take just one person's opinion and experience of it, or go by the results of just one study - you need to do your own research, go with those people you feel you can trust most, and then keep your fingers crossed when you take the path you decide on.

 

[PWDmum]

I think Michelle meant that it would be very undesirable to breed again so soon, rather than that it wasn't possible.

There are so many studies about the pros and cons of neutering at different times (or at all), done by people with different vested interests and using tools and methods some would question. So it's vital that people don't take just one person's opinion and experience of it, or go by the results of just one study - you need to do your own research, go with those people you feel you can trust most, and then keep your fingers crossed when you take the path you decide on.

I completely agree!!!

 

[leashedForLife]

... I can show this to my husband to put his mind at rest. It was the vet that made him nervous.
I’ve always wanted to get her done early, as I don’t see the point of waiting until she’s had a season. When they get spayed whether now or in a few months, will that reduce the risk of mammary cancer?

I know that having all dogs of whatever gender neutered reduces a lot of potential health problems. I really don’t understand people’s objections to neutering. Surely doing everything you can to keep them healthy is by far the most important thing.

Do you have any thoughts on keyhole neutering vs the more traditional type? The vet said it’s less invasive, she’d recover more quickly and the surgery would be shorter so she’d be in less pain.
Do you agree with this?
From what I gather, people opt for the bigger surgery due to cost as keyhole surgery is considerably more expensive. My view is that I’m responsible for this beautiful little life who depends on me to look after her and if it’s more beneficial, another £200 is worth paying. Her wellbeing is far more important.

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yes, to put it another way, the risk of spay-surgery will never be lower for her than 'now' - plus, spay B4 her 1st estrus virtually ensures she will never have mammary cancer. That's a large risk, down to near-nil.
Keyhole vs midline-abdominal vs side-entry all have some small advantages, in certain cases - keyhole does mean several small holes to be stitched, instead of ONE longer incision, but if U totaled all the stitches, U'd probly not be too far under the # of stitches for one belly-incision. // To operate in such a small field, the surgeon "inflates" the dog's abdomen, & the gas must be expelled, later - the discomfort from the gas trapped in the abdomen can be worse than the pain of the incision, according to some human-patients [I've never had a keyhole surgery, so i have no personal experience to share].

Abdominal Pain from Laparoscopic Surgery - Abdomend
https://www.abdomend.com/...abdominal-surgery/gas-pain-in-abdomen-after-surgery/
"One of the most uncomfortable aspects after having Laparoscopic Surgery, is the subsequent organ, diaphragm, & possible shoulder pain. This is caused by the CO2 gas becoming trapped against the diaphragm."

Post Op Instructions After Laparoscopy - Do's & Don'ts | CIGC
Post Op Instructions After Laparoscopy - Do's & Don'ts | CIGC
"The carbon dioxide gas used to insufflate the abdomen during the procedure (so the surgeon can see) will irritate the phrenic nerve in some patients, leading to mild to severe pain. This nerve [carries] pain impulses from the lining of the chest cavity. The pain can occur during deep breaths. This resolves within two to three ..."

Pain after laparoscopy
https://academic.oup.com/bja/article-pdf/79/3/369/18261188/790369.pdf
by JI Alexander - ‎1997 - ‎Cited by 251 - ‎Related articles
"Laparoscopy (Greek. —flank, or o—soft; o —to look) involves insufflation of the abdomen by gas or other fluid so that the endoscope (usually 6–10 mm in diameter) can view the intra-abdominal contents without being in direct contact with the viscera or tissues.Surgical procedures ..."
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Also, a tender abdomen helps to keep a recovering spay-patient from bouncing off the walls for the 1st few days! - She's not spozed to JUMP onto or off of anything [sofa, chair, bed, outdoor benches, garden walls, the kitchen-counter, stairs, landings, _________ ], so she's to be on-leash & AWAY FROM the other dogs for 7 to 10-days, till she's fully healed. The reason she's not to leap about is to prevent any stitches popping - the reason for separating her from the other dogs is A, she's not tempted to jump on or wrestle with them, B, THEY are not tempted to "lick her wound" for her, since she'll be wearing a cone-collar or otherwise prevented from licking it, herself, & C, they won't jump on her playfully, nor tease her to play with them.
If she's unsupervised, she should be crated for her own safety, so she can't hop onto something or stand with her paws on a windowsill to peer out, or whatnot; a bored dog will do things she hasn't done B4, to fill the time, so I'd feed her all meals from stuffed & frozen Kongs, or if she eats kibble, from a BusterCube at the 'least' setting.
U can walk her on leash just as far as U like - since she can't jog or run, long walks will help take the edge off. Wading her in water to her hocks while U walk along dry-shod is another good way to add some effort without compromising her recovery. She must "push" her legs thru the water-column, but she's not bounding, merely walking with more work expended.

re confinement & leash-only walks, long-lasting chewies are a Godsend at such times - i'd lay in a stock of antlers, cow-hooves, cow-horns, bull-pizzles, & other tough pacifiers, to keep her happy when crated or confined.

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...could I ask your opinion about the amount of contact [dogs] need with other dogs?

We have 5 dogs, 3 boys - a GSD & 2 Shih Tzu - & 2 girls - a Cocker x Poodle and the pup, a Cocker/ Poodle x Shih Tzu. They all get on very well, have their own dynamic, and don’t like being apart.
We exercise them on safe private land and never take them for walks in public places. This isn’t due in any way to their behaviour, but other dog owners. When we [walked] them in public, Clarence the GSD tried to play with other dogs and their owners, without exception, freaked out, shouted at him, and some tried to hit him. I put Clarence back on his lead [immediately] but I’ve had massive arguments with some owners for abusing my boy, just because he’s a big German shepherd and their breed has a bad reputation. He’s very protective of me... when someone is literally in my face shouting, he gets very upset and displays what could be construed as aggressive behaviour... he doesn’t try to bite, but is agitated, barks, and occasionally snarls.
Eventually, I’d had enough, and found private land [where] they can run around happily without Clarence being vilified. The owner [of the property] breeds whippets, & about once a week, lets them out to all play together with no problems.

Plus about once a week/ fortnight, I take them to a socialisation centre [to] be around & play with other dogs. But really they’re not that [excited], they like being and playing with each other. They go purely because I don’t want them to miss out as we walk them privately -- after about 20 minutes, they’ve had enough and want to go home. They come and lie [by] me, which is their little sign for home time.

Do you think going to the socialisation centre is necessary? I think I may be projecting what I think they need [vs] what they actually want. If they’re happy playing together, is there any point?
I’d really appreciate your view on this. We play games with them a lot at home to keep them mentally stimulated and plenty of individual fuss time. They’re all very happy and settled dogs. The socialisation centre was recently closed for 6 weeks while they had building work done and they didn’t seem to miss going at all.

Sorry for the long post and lots of questions but you’re obviously very knowledgeable and I’m very interested in your views. Many thanks in advance.

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re how much dog-time dogs need, like so many dog Qs, the answer is, "it depends".
Some adore time *meeting* other dogs, & want a daily fix; others are more-attached to special buddies, & don't really care about meeting dogs outside their inner circle.
Even if it's only every 2-weeks or so, i'd probly continue the socialization center only to maintain their tolerance of a wider range of breeds & types - that way, should a bumptious black Lab come charging up one day when U're on the street, none of them will be shocked to see a non-Whippet, non-Shih tzu, non-GSD dog!

Dogs can & do get "prejudices", my Akita bitch developed a bad attitude about black Labs & large black dogs in general, after being assaulted / chased by one that was allowed to roam the owner's property on an irregular basis - i never knew when he'd be out, & even being on the far side of a 4-lane busy road wouldn't prevent him CROSSING to harass & threaten us! .He was genuinely scary - she got over it quite by accident, when an older black Lab flirted with her from a distance while she was in estrus. He was exceedingly polite, charming, & adoring, & she decided black Labs were OK again, based solely on his romantic courting style. [They were both on leash, he was a good 15 or 20-ft away, but he made lots of come-hither signals & she thot he was really sweet. ]

- terry

PS - sorry for the slow reply, i do a weekend live-in shift, & this sat in draft overnight since 9-PM on Sunday local time.

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