Help! westie will not house train

[henryfernando]

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Hi,

I hadn't planned on buying Henry... we had gone to a dog show with the kids in Dubai (live here) and a pet shop was selling dogs. Henry had to be saved... I'm not saying they were a bad pet shop, but I just couldn't let him stay with them. So I bought him, got all his certificates and off home we went. Of course I wasn't prepared at home and having NO clue about how to look after a dog, he pee'd and poo'd all over the house!! The next day I took him to the vet. They explained about crate training etc... so we bought the right sized crate from them with all the bits and peices that Henry would need. They checked over him and said he was 5 months old and had probably sat in the pet shop for a couple of months - so absolutely NO training. I read up on how to care for Henry and how to train him. Here is what I did:

He slept in the crate at night (no problem - loved it)

We took him to the garden to pee and said "go wee wee Henry"

He ate at the same times every day

We allowed him out the crate in the house if we could watch him (however, with 2 small kids - we couldn't always watch him so accidents happened...frequently)

When he was out in the garden - with us, he'd just have free time. I figured he's allowed to toilet anywhere in the garden so no problem

When he did wee/poo (that we saw in the Garden in the right place) he was rewarded

I took him to obedience training and he will sit and stay for me.... walking isn't mastered yet, but he's getting there. He will dance for treats blah blah blah

When it didn't seem like he was going to give up having accidents, I asked the dog trainer what to do. So she told me put him on a tight and strict schedule for 4 weeks.... i.e. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES LET HIM OUT OF YOUR SIGHT, NOT EVEN A SECOND when he's free in the house. Only give him free time as a reward for doing a poo wee..... All of this we have done. Henry is now 1 year old and STILL on that schedule. But he will still wee or poo wherever he wants if we turn our eye from him for a second. It's so strange because he knows he gets a treat for doing a wee in the right place, but it's as if he still doesn't get that in the house is not the place to be doing it.

I really love Henry. We all do and I will do whatever it takes to get him trained but really I just don't know what the answer is and I'm fed up of him having to be in his crate when we can't keep an eye on him. I just want him to be able to be with us without the worry of him messing somewhere. Also in the evenings when he's not in the crate and hanging out with us in the living room, it would be really nice to watch TV without constantly having to look at where he is in order to make sure he doesn't do an accident.

He has gone 2 weeks or more without having an accident in the house (because we've been 100% strict with the schedule) but the other day, he was out of my site for 30 seconds and there was a poo on the floor!

I will add that he never poos or wees in his crate, that he has teh all clear from the vet, there is nothing wrong with him and that the only other place he wont toilet is the kitchen. other than that, he'll do it anywhere... he just doesn't care.

I'm sorry for the long rant but I'm feeling a bit helpless.

Thanks in advance

 

[goldenbear2013]

I'm so sorry but the schedule is ridiculous.

No one can watch their dog constantly, and if you cant watch him he has to go in his crate???? No, no no!!! The dog will be so wound up that sometimes when he is out the excitement gets the better of him and he will go to the toilet. This could also be because he is anxious too.

You poor thing! You have been given some naff advice there I'm afraid (in my opinion others way not agree with me)

Right here goes: I shall do my best to keep this short:

You should by now have a good idea of when he needs to go to the toilet- first thing in the morning, last thing at night, after meals etc.

Also when you play with him, take him straight outside after playing. they are usually excited whilst playing so will probably wee straight away after playtime is finished.

Also pop him in the garden straight after a walk. Sounds daft, but trust me, sometimes the dog will wait until they get home to go to the toilet. Strange but true.

if you watch Henry's body language you will probably notice that before he goes to the toilet, he will start to sniff the floor and maybe circle around one spot. Immediately call him to you and put him into the garden. reward as you have been doing if he goes to the toilet outside.

if he starts to go to the toilet in the house, immediately pick him and up him outside and let him finish what he was doing outside. if he finishes outside, again, reward.

When I say reward, I don't just mean a treat. make loads of fuss of him! give him big cuddles and give him a good boy in a really excited voice. Lots of fuss as well as a treat. he will soon catch on that lots of love and cuddles and food happen when he goes to the toilet outside.

Now when he is outside, don't just leave him there to go on his own, you will need to stay with him and watch him, because as soon as he goes that's when the praise comes in. it has to be immediately after he has gone to the toilet.

my trainer told me that you have 3 seconds after the dogs actions to either praise or correct (depending on the dogs action of course) for them to understand that the positive or negative attention you are giving him is because of what he has just done.

This may take a little time, but Westies are so clever (and so flipping adorable!!) that he should catch on mega quick!

now bare in mind that he is in his teenage years so rebelling against you may crop up from time time, as he is testing boundaries, so just be consistant and stick with it. This is a general rule of thumb for all of your training you give him , not just the toilet training.

Good luck and let us know how you get on

Sophie x

 

[henryfernando]

Hi Sophie,

Thank you so much for your response. I've not been at all comfortable with (as you say) that ridiculous schedule. So in terms of his crate, would you say that the only time he should be in there is either when he's not napping somewhere else, or I can't be in the same area as him or if we go out? All other times he can just be around us? What I'm getting from you here is that you think I should concentrate on really rewarding him when he does a wee and making sure that we don't miss a single one so that he can be praised every time.

We have tiled floors throughout the house as standard in Dubai which is fantastic for toilet problems, however there are rugs too. Do you think I should roll them up until Henry is trained to avoid accidents on them (as it's harder to clean and get the scent off). The trainer (who gave me the schedule) told me to clean up any accidents with washing powder followed by white vinegar. Is the white vinegar really necessary? My house ends up smelling like a fish and chip shop!!!!

I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me - it's a huge relief to read all of this.

Sarah x

 

[goldenbear2013]

You're welcome Sarah

Crates are not only excellent place for the dog to sleep in but as a training tool too. He can be in the crate at bed time, (during the day when you are home, let him sleep wherever he wants to), when you are doing the house work, and when you go out. That way he is out of harms way and you also haven't got to worry about coming home to any accidents whilst you're out.

You can buy none scented cleaning sprays from pet shops that kill the scent when a dog has marked or gone to the toilet somewhere else. They are purposely for accidents in the home when toilet training so they are very good. They are also none toxic to dogs so if he walks on the floor after you have cleaned it and licks his paws you don't have to worry. Not sure on the white wine vinegar- something I've never heard of or tried.

And yes concentrate very much so on the reward aspect of his toilet training, or any training for that matter. Don't scold him if he goes in the house, don't even talk to him, just pick him up and put him outside and stay with him until he goes (as per previous message). Telling him off will get you no where.

Like I said giving him huge amounts of praise by going outside will be what he will love the most as he is getting even more attention from you than normal and will encourage to want to go outside more!

Mine is 2 years old next month and even though he is toilet trained and goes outside as and when he needs, when he comes back in we still always praise him and give him a fuss.

it's all about consistency with something like this.

Good luck and keep me posted!

Anything your not sure of just pop it on this site. Someone if not me is bound to respond to you pretty quickly with some helpful tips! :thumbsup:

Sophie x

 

[henryfernando]

Hi Sophie,

I'm very grateful. I'll let you know how we get on. I already feel better, and I bet Henry does too .

I've attached a photo of him so you can see who your helping

 

[goldenbear2013]

Awwwww he is so adorable!

Speak soon!

Good luck! x

 

[gypsysmum]

Clean the area with a 10% solution of biological washing detergent. Rinse. Dry. Go over with a spirit like white vinegar or surgical spirit to lift the last of the fat deposits.

Is he entire? If so, is he scent marking?

Having said that, a poo is not a scent mark so he obviously does not "get it" about the reward on offer outside. The reward must be something he really wants. If he gets lots of fuss all day then a fuss for doing a poo in the garden may not mean enough to him. I would try using a really high value food reward like liver or chicken that he would die for. As soon as he poops he must get the treat. If he walks towards you he may believe he got the treat for doing that rather than the poop. Give him five treats, one after the other, with lots of praise and a really, really, smiley face.

You are trying to train him to think "oh need a poo - oh let's go outside and get a treat!". You should, by now, be recognising a pattern to his toileting. Keep an especial eye on him at these times. Use the crate when you know he needs to go but you cannot watch him.

How much exercise does he get and does he poop on walks?

Is he comfortable pooping when people are around or does he wait until he is on his own? If he has picked up your frustration around his poo habits he may be avoiding being around people when he poops. This will make training him much harder.

Is he getting too much food and, therefore, needing to poop much more?

 

[henryfernando]

Hi there,

Thank you so much for your message. In answer to your questions; he's not scent marking, yes he has had the chop, he doesn't eat that much and we only feed him twice a day. No snacking or non dog food. We take him for a walk every morning and 95% of the time he does a poo and a wee. However when we take him out in the evenings (which is probably only 3-4 times a week) he doesn't do it. We also have a big garden and he enjoys playing with the kids there and darting around the place so I feel he's getting enough exercise. He has no issues pooing in front of people (or weeing for that matter). We now make sure that we are on standby in the garden with a treat for when he does toilet so that he gets the treat straight away. Lots of praise... (I will start giving him more treats at that time). I think you are right, he just hasn't got it BUT now that he's out of his crate a lot more and we aren't giving him free reign of the garden, we can control when he does go a lot better and reward him. He's a really easy going dog, not at all uptight and doesn't bark very much. I feel he doesn't know how to tell us when he does want to go. He's been mucked around so much I guess it will take a good few weeks of this new routine before he starts to get it, but I think we all feel better for not having him on that crazy schedule that didn't work for any of us. He has had about 5 wee accidents and 1 poo accident in 3 days, but equally he has done lots of wee's and poo's in the right spot in the garden so it's not all bad. I guess it's just persistance, and patience??

 

[gypsysmum]

Yes, patience and timing. With a busy household it must be very difficult to pick up his "need a wee" signals.

When he was a pup did you leave the door open to help with his house training? This can sometimes cause dogs to treat the inside like the outside.

I would make a big fuss around door opening. When you are letting him out try to get him agitated before the door is opened for him. If he realises that being agitated around the door gets you to open it that may help him to give you the right signals.

At the end of the day it is all about him wanting the fantastic reward that is on offer for wees and poos in the garden

 

[henryfernando]

Hi, you are right... in the beginning we had the doors open so he doesn't understand the difference between indoors and outdoors. I will definitely try your suggestion with the door. It is a busy household and it's not easy. The other thing is that he doesn't have a routine of when he goes. His wee'ing is so utterly random there is no pattern. Sometimes he will go 1.5 hours or more after drinking without going. Other times he'll go twice in 1 hour. There are just no set times that we can guarantee - apart from the morning routine (and that's not 100% consistent) it's just all over the place. He seem to have it sorted in the mornings, but after that it all goes wrong. I fed him at 5pm tonight, he wee'd and poo'd at 7.30pm. We went to the living room about 10 minutes later and he wee'd all over the floor!! He knows he will get a reward if he does it in the garden but he just wont get that we don't want him to do it in the house. My intuition is telling me that it really is only because he doesn't get it and that he is also behind in development. Also I should add (and I'm not sure if this makes any difference) that he still wee's like a girl. He sometimes tries to cock his leg but he can't quite manage it. He doesn't mark either.... Just stands in the middle of the lawn and does it like a girl. He usually just does one wee and then doesn't go again. It's like a full time job trying to train Henry

 

[goldenbear2013]

I honestly think he is behind as you got him 2 months later than normal puppy owners and the fact he came from a shop means there was no training for him at all! this makes me sad, that pet stores sell puppies!! I could just cry! :'(

Anyway; other dogs do take longer to catch on with the toilet training than others, so don't worry there. You are just going to have follow him round every where he goes or at least have one eye on him so he can see what he is doing and if he starts to sniff or circle then pick him up and put him straight outside.

And as for the no cocking of the leg I wouldn't worry. Some dogs never do it. Mine is 2 in a few weeks and has never cocked his leg, never scent marked or anything! He pee's when he needs to go; that's it; and squats like a girl! However, I would put this down to us having him castrated at 6 months old.

The joys of owning a puppy eh!!!

Keep us informed!

Sophie x

 

[henryfernando]

Thanks, Sophie. I know - I don't like pet shops selling any pets to be honest. I said I would never buy from one as I am aware that by doing that I am allowing puppy farms to carry on trading. Here in Dubai, they even drug puppies in some places so that they remain quiet in the shop. Awful. I just had to have Henry though. We couldn't let him go back to the shop.

I will perserver with all the advice you have given me and see where we are in a couple of weeks. Like you guys have said, it's patience and consistency.

Thanks again x

 

[eingana]

How are you and Henry getting on now? Is there any improvement?

 

[Demarcation]

Wow im amazed no one has suggested providing punishment when he does wrong. Its just as important as praise when he does right. Same as a child.

When he messes, tell him off. Get him, take him to the mess push his nose very close. Does not have to touch but within 5-10 cm. tell him off then put him outside. Ignore him for 5 mins.

Once done, before letting him in, make him approach you and 'appoligise' then rebuild the relationship with a fuss and praise for him coming back to you.

Punishment should be as you wish, personally i smack the dog but not hard enough to hurt. Its more a show of dominence such as they would experience from another member of the pack of higher rank. Ensuring dominence is an important part of pack mentality.

 

[henryfernando]

Hi,

Thanks for your emails. Well I can't say there is much improvement. We are as strict as we can be with him in terms of the plan, but sometimes we miss it. Basically, if he needs to "go" he just will, wherever he is. He does not favour a certain spot in the house, he is definitely not scenting. There is no real pattern to his toilet behaviour too. That's pretty random which means that we are having to watch him pretty much all the time, or crate him when busy. He knows he's done a great thing if he does toilet in the right place and loves his treat and seems so happy with himself. I would say we are having about 5 accidents a week - however I believe this would be a lot more if we weren't watching him and managing him the way we do.

Everything on the internet that I read - and the trainers here all say not to punish.... although I have thought about it for Henry as we don't seem to be moving forward.

 

[Demarcation]

saying not to punish is obsurd! I think people these days fear that punishment always involves kicking the s*** out the dog. It dosnt. Its about a measured responce, making the dog understand what was done was wrong. You have tried without punishment. Its not worked, try 6-8 weeks with punishment and reward.

Also something i forgot, you dont have to watch the dog 24/7. But during the training you must take the dog to the garden once an hour if he wants it or not. Spend 5 mins outside at least. I used to do it just on the hour and set alarms. It means the dog has had oppertunity And you are justified in punishing when he goes indoors.

When he does go outdoors, during verbally praise and remind him of the command 'wee wee' or whatever you use. Once done, give him a fuss and more praise.

 

[goldenbear2013]

I agree!

When people "punish" their dogs people look in horror at you!

I think punish is a very harsh word though, I prefer to use the word "correction"

My dog plays up sometimes when on his lead (normally its when he is sees a squirrel or something and tries to bolt off and I get dragged with him). He bolts, he gets yanked back to my side (where he is supposed to be when walking to heel) and gets a firm "NO" followed by another more gentle tug on his lead and the command to walk to heel.

You need to work out what works best with you and your puppy. 5 accidents a week is so much better than what you told us before so you must take this as a very positive thing.

Regular toilet breaks as Demarcation says is a good technique, and you should definitely give it a whirl!

If needs be pop his lead on and lead him out to the garden he is doesn't want to go willingly.

Adapting to how your dog works is the best way to get the best out of your dog.

I think if you do this then you wont need to correct your dog. Sometimes pointing to where he has toileted and giving him your correction command verbally (whether it be NO or whatever it is you use so he knows he has done something he shouldn't) does the trick.

Please keep us posted!!!

Sophie x

 

[gypsysmum]

Punishment just creates fear.

Fear prevents learning.

Do not punish your dog. Dogs do not have morals. They do not understand right from wrong. That is for us higher mortals. We should be above punishing a sensitive creature. If your dog looks "guilty" it is actually showing anxiety at your anger.

Anxiety prevents learning.