In Breeding / Line Breeding / Outcross

[saraquele]

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this may start a lovely debate but here goes :- "

ive only been in the "showing " game for just over 2 years so am still very much a novice :b

i have done quite a bit of research on pedigrees etc for the show whippet and find that the line breeding is the most common.

you know the lines / faults etc etc

but have also come across some out crosses that produced nice stuff that has been a benefit to the breed.

personally i will go with line breeding but have you lot done anything outcross thats has turned out a blinder ?

im just intrested in pedigrees and wonderd what your views were , showing , racing , coursing etc all included not just show dogs :thumbsup:

 

[nina]

Well, i've done all 3!!

I'm a great beleiver in if you know your lines whether they are an out cross or line bred or even inbred if they gel they gel.

I think its healthy for anyone to outcross occassionally especially in a numerically small breed, you have to.

My rule has always been, go "in" twice then "out" once.

From 2 litters of line bred pups (1 litter of 4) produced 1 Champion, 1 RCC winner (1 litter of 2), produced 1 RCC winner.

From 1 litter of inbred pups (litter of 3) produced 1 Champion.

From 2 outcross litters (1 litter of 3) produced 2 Champions, (1 litter of 5) produced 3 Champions, 2 RCC winners.

I beleive if the quality & standard of both the dog & bitch is good & whats behind them & they gel it will work.

I've known 2 Champions line bred produce a litter of rubbish, the same as 2 outcrosses.

My advice to anyone is research the lines, take a long hard look at what you've got & what you are hoping to achieve.

No dog or bitch whether line bred or outcrossed rarely can perform "miracles", quality in both dam & sire is always a good start.

Always be honest, look to what your bitch lacks & what you are trying to improve upon.

Dont always go for the current winners or flavour of the month champions if they obviously dont suit your bitch.

Often the current Ch dog is not always the most prolific sire, just as the top winning Ch bitch is not necessarily the best brood bitch.

Breeding is an exciting & challenging feat with no end of surprises along the way & sometimes no matter how it appears on paper good or bad you just "know" when something is right.

 

[Seraphina]

The problem with close breeding is that you are limiting the gene pool in your line. There has been evidence that inbred wild populations of animals crash due to weakened immune system. Surprisingly, some research also shows that inbred fish suffer more from parasite infestation and other problems not normally associated with the immune system.

There is more to dog breeding than producing a champion. Especially, as nowadays there are so many congenital diseases affecting many breeds.

When I am choosing a stud dog I look first at the phenotype because the characteristics I can see, I KNOW he is capable passing on. If he is the type I like and I am happy with what I see, then I look at his pedigree. I do not count the champions; I look at his ancestors for characteristics that I may not want to introduce into my line.

I breed my bitch because she is a type of Whippet I like and I will breed her to a dog very similar to her, who however compliments her well = he must be excellent in points that she is not . And that is the most important consideration for me, not if it is an outcross or line breeding.

 

[saraquele]

very intresting points ,

its true that you have to like both dog and bitch , not just go for what is winning ,

ive looked at some multi ch pedigrees and you can see that one was a fluke out of the litter etc , i know its not easy and you can NEVER tell no matter how close you look .

 

[Juley]

OMG. You must read minds (w00t) . I was planning to put this very topic on myself. I love to look at pedigrees and see what other people have used and what the progeny look like, great topic.

 

[lalena]

hmmm. i suppose it really depends on the individual dogs. knowing the backround etc. what youre aiming to produce.

amber is an outcross, but we were lucky in that her dominant genes completely favour her sire, who is totally different to her dam, so we had an idea of what theoretically her recessive genes are.

when we were looking for a stud, we wanted a dog that was similar to her, but was strong where she was lacking. while many dogs filled that criteria, the question of THEIR recessive genes was raised. while outwardly being a good match, as the genes were different, the resulting pups could have been wildly varying. so they were discounted. which brings us to line breeding. if dogs come from common ancestors, a certain amount of genes will be shared, for the most part. so the stud dogs that were related to amber, and looked to be a match, chances are that the genes we wanted the pups to have would be THE SAME and coming from both parents, so the odds would be that the litter would definately inherit at least one set, if not two, of what i wanted.

i wouldnt in breed, personally. you might get some stunning pups, but if hidden flaws are present in the dogs involved, they are just as likely to come out as the good points, especially if the family was already closely linebred. if an accidental mating took place, i'd be inclined to go for an outcross for the next generation.

ooooooooh, too much thinking

 

[BeeJay]

OMG. You must read minds (w00t) . I was planning to put this very topic on myself. I love to look at pedigrees and see what other people have used and what the progeny look like,  great topic.

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Health warning that's how I got started with my database. Sends you mad in the end. :wacko: :teehee:

 

[saraquele]

lol (w00t)

i am soooo intrested in pedigees etc ,

not for breeding but just intrested in them .

so many people think ped dog to ped dog will produce the same but as we all know on here that isnt so . you have to look so much deeper and as you say compliment the dogs good / bad faults etc .

ooohhh very in depth matter :blink:

 

[saraquele]

OMG. You must read minds (w00t) . I was planning to put this very topic on myself. I love to look at pedigrees and see what other people have used and what the progeny look like,  great topic.

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id say im more physcotic than physic :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

 

[nina]

[ There is more to dog breeding than producing a champion. 

Well health issues aside & obvious genetics faults, i think that is exactly most people's aim to produce something of outstanding Ch quality & to maintain & if at all possible improve the breed in some way??

No one in their right mind wants to breed puppies with a known genetic fault or hereditary health issue, i would think this would go without saying for any dedicated breed conscious person.

I breed my bitch because she is a type of Whippet I like and I will breed her to a dog very similar to her, who however compliments her well = he must be excellent in points that she is not . And that is the most important consideration for me, not if it is an outcross or line breeding.

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Exactly what i said about being honest about what your own bitch lacks & trying to look to improve upon this. :thumbsup:

Nina

 

[Juley]

OMG. You must read minds (w00t) . I was planning to put this very topic on myself. I love to look at pedigrees and see what other people have used and what the progeny look like,  great topic.

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Health warning that's how I got started with my database. Sends you mad in the end. :wacko: :teehee:

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Oh well thats OK then (w00t) . I've been mad for years :lol:

 

[Seraphina]

[ There is more to dog breeding than producing a champion.

Well health issues aside & obvious genetics faults, i think that is exactly most people's aim to produce something of outstanding Ch quality & to maintain & if at all possible improve the breed in some way??

:thumbsup:

Nina

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Sadly, just because a dog is a champion does not always guarantee he is of an outstanding quality.

I like to evaluate each dogs on his own merrit without being influnced by his show record. Many years ago when I was new to breeding I heard about fantastic top winning dog (not a Whippet) living on the other side of this country, his owners boasted he has a "perfect front and rear angulation" . Then his photos arrived (w00t) , I have never seen anything so bad, looking side on, you could put a straight line from his hip joint to his foot, it would go through every joint in his rear leg! I bet he is in back of some present dogs' pedigree, being remebered for his successful show carrier and linebred to by people who never seen the photo I have somewhere in my collection.

 

[saraquele]

totally agree , have to look way back , as we all know , sometimes its not the dogs that win but the handler :thumbsup:

 

[nina]

Sadly, just because a dog is a champion does not always guarantee he is of an outstanding quality.  I like to evaluate each dogs on his own merrit  without being influnced by his show record.  Many years ago when I was new to breeding I heard about  fantastic top winning dog (not a Whippet) living on the other side of this country, his owners boasted he has a "perfect front and rear angulation" .  Then his photos arrived  (w00t)   , I have never seen anything so bad,  looking side on, you could put a straight line from his hip joint to his foot, it would go through every joint in his rear leg!  I bet he is in back of some present dogs' pedigree, being remebered for his successful show carrier and linebred to by people who never seen the photo I have somewhere in my collection.

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My meaning was if you breed a litter most people hope to produce something that THEY consider to be of outstanding quality, others may not necessarily deem the same.

When I breed a litter I know what I am hoping to produce, whether other people agree with my opinion of them is another matter.

There are many Ch's made up that YOU or I or someone else may not consider to be worthy BUT as we all have our own individual ideas & likes & dislikes what one considers to be outstanding maybe the next person doesn't?

I breed a litter in the hope to produce something that I consider to be worthy of becoming a Ch not to fulfill other people's ideals. If others happen to like my dogs all well & good, if they dont, I know i have done my best & if i am happy with what i have bred then i have succeeded in my mind in maintaining the breed that i love.

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

, I have never seen anything so bad, looking side on, you could put a straight line from his hip joint to his foot, it would go through every joint in his rear leg! I bet he is in back of some present dogs' pedigree, being remebered for his successful show carrier and linebred to by people who never seen the photo I have somewhere in my collection.

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Angulation (or lack of it) like you mention is what most breeders of a perfomance running dog would look for. Look at non-peds or racing G/hnds. Wish I could find a good stud dog like that over here.

Interesting thread BTW.

Terry Smith

 

[Seraphina]

My meaning was if you breed a litter most people hope to produce something that THEY consider to be of outstanding quality, others may not necessarily deem the same.
When I breed a litter I know what I am hoping to produce, whether other people agree with my opinion of them is another matter.

There are many Ch's made up that YOU or I or someone else may not consider to be worthy BUT as we all have our own individual ideas & likes & dislikes what one considers to be outstanding maybe the next person doesn't?

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I am not talking about a minor points or individual interpretation of standard. I am talking about gross faults. If a dog is badly cow hocked that has nothing to do with my or anybody else’s taste. All what I am saying that just because dog is famous does not necessary mean he is excellent. I cannot post here a photo of the particular dog i mentioned in my previous post, but this is as faithful outline of his silhouette as I managed to trace. He is NOT a Whippet, but that breed’s standard calls for deep chest, 90degrees shoulder angle, and well angulated hind legs.

 

[saraquele]

as you say i think we are all looking for our own " stamp "

everbody varies in what they are looking for but we all want to be as close to the breed standard as possible .

we all have our own personal likes and dislikes that is why there is such a variation on whippets .

im really glad i started this , its great to see how everyone is contributing to the breed :thumbsup:

 

[nina]

I am not talking about a minor points or individual interpretation of standard.  I am talking about gross faults.    If a dog is badly cow hocked that has nothing to do with my or anybody else’s taste.  All what I am saying that just because dog is famous does not necessary mean he is excellent.  I cannot post here a photo of the particular dog i mentioned in my previous post, but this is as faithful outline of his silhouette as I managed to trace.  He is NOT a Whippet, but that breed’s standard calls for deep chest, 90degrees shoulder angle, and well angulated hind legs.

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But it is individual interpretation because not all people see things the same way.

What YOU can look at & see as an obvious fault another may not be able to see this. You may well look at a dog & see it to be badly cow hocked BUT does someone else or indeed the owner? An exact example of the people who own the afore Ch that you have mentioned, you see the obvious fault in this dog just from a picture BUT do they?

What we have to understand first & foremost is not everyone that breeds, shows, judges & is generally involved in a breed actually understands the breed standard

or interprets it in the same way as YOU or I or Joe Bloggs.

I for one am certainly not trying to say that EVERY CH in whatever breed is obviously of outstang quality to ME but to someone else perhaps it is???

To reiterate from my original post in my opinion DONT just go to the current winner or flavour of the month CH, research your lines & to reiterate again its not always the top Ch that is the top stud dog or brood bitch.

To breed a top quality animal which in YOUR own eyes is worthy of carrying a CH title is what i beleive most people strive for.

There will always be someone who doesn't like your dog or the new Ch or someone else's dog, you cant please all of the people all of the time but provided YOU consider your dog to be as near to the breed standard as possible & that it carries NO obvious outstanding faults then i think you can only say you have done your best.

 

[aslan]

Wonder what that dog looked like properly stacked, Lida?

Any dog stretched that far is going to lose any angles it may actually possess.

 

[saraquele]

I am not talking about a minor points or individual interpretation of standard.  I am talking about gross faults.    If a dog is badly cow hocked that has nothing to do with my or anybody else’s taste.   All what I am saying that just because dog is famous does not necessary mean he is excellent.   I cannot post here a photo of the particular dog i mentioned in my previous post, but this is as faithful outline of his silhouette as I managed to trace.  He is NOT a Whippet, but that breed’s standard calls for deep chest, 90degrees shoulder angle, and well angulated hind legs.

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But it is individual interpretation because not all people see things the same way.

What YOU can look at & see as an obvious fault another may not be able to see this. You may well look at a dog & see it to be badly cow hocked BUT does someone else or indeed the owner? An exact example of the people who own the afore Ch that you have mentioned, you see the obvious fault in this dog just from a picture BUT do they?

What we have to understand first & foremost is not everyone that breeds, shows, judges & is generally involved in a breed actually understands the breed standard

or interprets it in the same way as YOU or I or Joe Bloggs.

I for one am certainly not trying to say that EVERY CH in whatever breed is obviously of outstang quality to ME but to someone else perhaps it is???

To reiterate from my original post in my opinion DONT just go to the current winner or flavour of the month CH, research your lines & to reiterate again its not always the top Ch that is the top stud dog or brood bitch.

To breed a top quality animal which in YOUR own eyes is worthy of carrying a CH title is what i beleive most people strive for.

There will always be someone who doesn't like your dog or the new Ch or someone else's dog, you cant please all of the people all of the time but provided YOU consider your dog to be as near to the breed standard as possible & that it carries NO obvious outstanding faults then i think you can only say you have done your best.

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to me this post says all i believe in :thumbsup: