In Breeding / Line Breeding / Outcross

[dawn]

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To reiterate from my original post in my opinion DONT just go to the current winner or flavour of the month CH, research your lines & to reiterate again its not always the top Ch that is the top stud dog or brood bitch. 
To breed a top quality animal which in YOUR own eyes is worthy of carrying a CH title is what i believe most people strive for.

There will always be someone who doesn't like your dog or the new Ch or someone else's dog, you cant please all of the people all of the time but provided YOU consider your dog to be as near to the breed standard as possible & that it carries NO obvious outstanding faults then i think you can only say you have done your best.

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Personally I breed for what I like I dont breed dogs for a title they may (or much more likely - may not) get. I breed the dogs because I like what I breed. The fact that they win is a secondary consideration. If nationally the dogs that were winning were not of the type I like, whether they are within the breed standard or not, I would not change what I look for when I have a litter of whippets just because they wouldn't win at a show. The animal would still be Top Quality (IMO).

As far as using dogs at stud it is always going to be that the top-winning males will be used more than those who don't win. The outcome is then that more of the 'top dogs' progeny will be seen in the ring and probably do well.

There is a thread somehwer about the top sires which must be erroneous solely becasue some dogs are used more than others. The real figure should be based on the number of pups a dog has sired and the number of those pups that have done well in the ring. for example if my dog sires two litters wit a total of 10 pups two of which get their stud book number and another their title this is better than the 'top dog' siring 20 litters with 100 pups with 6 gaining their stud book and three gaining their title.

 

[kris]

i can see what dawns saying and i too agree with her.but heres something to think about.in my breed ,dobes the american influence was rife for many, many years,the continental/germanic type didnt do anything in the rings over here.everyone tried to breed to the elegant american type.but since ive been out of dobes now for over 10 years a new fashion has emerged as a few top breeders brought in a number of continental/german bred dogs and really pushed their progeny.now the continental type is vastly different to the american type.as fashions are followed by a few the breed rapidly changed to the extent that the germanic type dogs now are doing very well thankyou.i was brought up to like the american type,and it was the type i liked and bred for.but if i went back into dobes now id have to change everything i ever admired and liked about the breed cos thats not what is winning now.i still like what i bred but it prob just wouldnt win in the rings now.so what is right and who is wrong?stick to what youve always liked and win nothing,or change to the new type and have more success?dont forget most folks evaluation of a successful breeder is based on what their dogs win in the ring and their progenys success.

i also know that certain top breeders i knew for over 30 years who would deride the contintal type as being coarse,bad fronts,etc and looking more like a rott than a dobe are now using all the latest continental bred dogs,so they obviously have changed their type over the years, and the features they derided as faults are now virtues they long to possess! :- "

 

[nina]

Personally I breed for what I like I dont breed dogs for a title they may (or much more likely - may not) get. I breed the dogs because I like what I breed. The fact that they win is a secondary consideration. If nationally the dogs that were winning were not of the type I like, whether they are within the breed standard or not, I would not change what I look for when I have a litter of whippets just because they wouldn't win at a show. The animal would still be Top Quality (IMO).

I agree totally that you should breed to the type, quality & breed standard that YOU hold true in your mind, There is obviously no point whatso ever in breeding dogs that do not appeal to yourself as you have to live with them, but having done this & hopefully being happy with what you have produced, I for one & bear in mind this is only MY personal opinion would then like to see that dog do well in the ring & hopefully one day gain its Ch status that I beleive it deserves.

I think a lot of people who show continue breeding to hopefully one day produce something that not only they but others too consider to be of good enough quality to hold a CH tiltle.

Whilst some i know show & breed simply for the pure fun & enjoyment of it & of course the love of their chosen breed, many others although also enjoying the fore mentioned points do strive do have the quality of what they have produced recognised.

The fact that showing is so costly nowadays & if done correctly so much time, effort & expense is put into a litter I for one would not want to continue trawling what i considered to be top quality specimens of their breed to show after show without that quality being recognised somewhere along the line.

We all know that sometimes the CC isn't necessarily given to what WE beleive is the best dog on the day & the show world can be full of many politics BUT i have to say there is NEVER a nicer feeling than when you make up something you have bred, have worked damn hard to produce & know damn well it is now a Ch because it really deserves it.

 

[Seraphina]

as you say i think we are all looking for our own " stamp "
everbody varies in what they are looking for but we all want to be as close to the breed standard as possible .

we all have our own personal likes and dislikes that is why there is such a variation on whippets .

im really glad i started this , its great to see how everyone is contributing to the breed  :thumbsup:

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Type is one thing; it is open to interpretation and is subject to personal likes and dislikes. Soundness is another; correct skeletal structure is necessary for a sound animal. ANYBODY who is thinking about breeding should study the dog skeleton very carefully. Try to get book by Constance O.Miller Gazehounds: The Search For Truth.

As far as angulation goes; naturally most dogs will not be exactly 120degrees between the shoulder blade and upper arm, and we can argue for ever about the perfect angulation of the hind leg, but ANGULATED it needs to be. If there is no angle it is not just incorrect according to the standard, it is a deformity.

And i am not saying that gaining a championship title has no value, what i am saying is that people new to breeding should not take it for granted that champion is outstanding. There is not such a thing as a perfect dog, good handler can disguise dog's faults and politics sometime come into it.

However, nowadays we have the internet with so many fantastic websites where we can see many of the dogs in our pedigrees, so we can make much better choices. :thumbsup:

Just in tha case somebody did not think the dog could really be like my drawing:

 

[nina]

OMG!!!! (w00t)

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

As far as angulation goes; naturally most dogs will not be exactly 120degrees between the shoulder blade and upper arm, and we can argue for ever about the perfect angulation of the hind leg, but ANGULATED it needs to be. If there is no angle it is not just incorrect according to the standard, it is a deformity.

Just in tha case somebody did not think the dog could really be like my drawing:

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I don't know if you have a copy of "Whippets Today" by Patsy Gilmour if you do or have access to it look at the photo of "Cloudy Morning" on page 162. There is little difference in the angulation of that dog (a top racer from the 1920s) & the picture you show. Also bear in mind what Lana rightly (IMO) says this is a badly stacked dog or a dog caught just stretching it's hind leg. As you say NO angulation is a deformity an absolutely straight hind leg will not give any kind of gait. It would have that kind of "push along" movement you see in say Chows. I doubt very much if a whippet with this kind of gait would be placed let alone made up........................................even in OZ.....................................................only joking folks!!!! (w00t) (w00t) (w00t)

Terry Smith

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

Forgot to say. Great post from Dawn, sums up what a proper breeder should be trying for as a opposed to those who want to ride coat tails.

Terry Smith

 

[saraquele]

As far as angulation goes; naturally most dogs will not be exactly 120degrees between the shoulder blade and upper arm, and we can argue for ever about the perfect angulation of the hind leg, but ANGULATED it needs to be. If there is no angle it is not just incorrect according to the standard, it is a deformity.

Just in tha case somebody did not think the dog could really be like my drawing:

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I don't know if you have a copy of "Whippets Today" by Patsy Gilmour if you do or have access to it look at the photo of "Cloudy Morning" on page 162. There is little difference in the angulation of that dog (a top racer from the 1920s) & the picture you show. Also bear in mind what Lana rightly (IMO) says this is a badly stacked dog or a dog caught just stretching it's hind leg. As you say NO angulation is a deformity an absolutely straight hind leg will not give any kind of gait. It would have that kind of "push along" movement you see in say Chows. I doubt very much if a whippet with this kind of gait would be placed let alone made up........................................even in OZ.....................................................only joking folks!!!! (w00t) (w00t) (w00t)

Terry Smith

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think i have most books going ! will have a look at that :thumbsup:

when it comes time to mate jan im going back to her breeder for advice as she knows her lines better than anyone , but i am picking a lot up as i go along .

you have to delve very deep to pick up faults that may carry down the line and as you say find a suitable dog that dosent carry that fault .

no dog is perfect so we always need to try and better what we produce :thumbsup:

i am the same , i will go for what i like , not what i think everyone else will like :thumbsup:

 

[nina]

Forgot to say. Great post from Dawn, sums up what a proper breeder should be trying for as a opposed to those who want to ride coat tails.

Terry Smith

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I think most "proper" breeders are in agreement that they are ALL striving to produce something as correct to the breed standard as possible & of what THEY consider to be of the highest quality.

To merely "ride coat tails" would be of no personal satisfaction to me personally, maybe others feel the same?

 

[Seraphina]

Wonder what that dog looked like properly stacked, Lida?Any dog stretched that far is going to lose any angles it may actually possess.

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I am sure a good handler could do something to improve this dog, but believe me he was a shocker.

And i just spent 10 minutes to see if i could manage to make any of my girls look anywhere near as bad , well, I could not. But they just retired into their bedroom giving me the sort of looks; "She's really flipped now" (w00t)

 

[Seraphina]

Personally I breed for what I like I dont breed dogs for a title they may (or much more likely - may not) get. I breed the dogs because I like what I breed. The fact that they win is a secondary consideration. If nationally the dogs that were winning were not of the type I like, whether they are within the breed standard or not, I would not change what I look for when I have a litter of whippets just because they wouldn't win at a show. The animal would still be Top Quality (IMO).
As far as using dogs at stud it is always going to be that the top-winning males will be used more than those who don't win. The outcome is then that more of the 'top dogs' progeny will be seen in the ring and probably do well.

There is a thread somehwer about the top sires which must be erroneous solely becasue some dogs are used more than others. The real figure should be based on the number of pups a dog has sired and the number of those pups that have done well in the ring. for example if my dog sires two litters wit a total of 10 pups two of which get their stud book number and another their title this is better than the 'top dog' siring 20 litters with 100 pups with 6 gaining their stud book and three gaining their title.

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Very well said and the same could also be said about success of individual breeders; person who shows every weekend multitude of dogs is very likely going to get more placings than a person showing one or 2 dogs only once a month.

 

[nina]

Very well said and the same could also be said about success of individual breeders; person who shows every weekend multitude of dogs is very likely going to get more placings than a person showing one or 2 dogs only once a month.

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Not necessarily as i think whether one has just 2 dogs or 20 & shows once a month or every week, if the dogs are not up to standard they are not going to win either way, as no matter how many times you show invariably your are going to be up up against the same exhibits.

However if your dogs are of good quality & depict the breed standard yes you are going to get far more placings the more times you show because of that quality.