Is it a matter of training

[SaraE]

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Hi all

So you all know the last time i updated you i told you i was getting a labrador to gain experience before i get a Rottie well , im getting a Golden retriever instead as there just as quiet as labs but I've found 3 breeders who alk have tinnitus so understand my concerns about having a quiet puppy.

So im hoping to get my Golden in a year or so ive joined a facebook group UK based and ive been getting advice being a first time owner but ive had some replies that make me think its a matter of training.

For example i had one who said Goldens are the hardest puppies as hers has ripped the wall paper of the wall, chewed 2 dinning chairs and is hyper and never settles down. Now i thought surley the riping wall paper off walls is a mix of lack of mental stimulation and not supervising?

And another reply said his pulls him down the road and hes never been able to train his to not pull? surley all dogs can be trained to not pull ?

And fianlly i had one who said hers NEVER shuts up and barks at every little sound , even barks at leafs falling on the grass or will bark to wake her up so he can go out or barks for attention. surley this is also due to lack of training , she said she had tried everything to stop him barking but nothing works , so surley she either hasn't tried everything or something as barking is surley something that can be curbed with good training from day one?

Am i right all this is to do with training , lack of mental and physical stimulation?

 

[JudyN]

They're like children - how they behave is a combination of genes and upbringing. You can't change their basic nature, but you can achieve a lot through training. Proper training from day 1 (OK, it's not 'training' as such with an 8-week-old pup) and plenty of the right sort of mental stimulation should be able to prevent destroying the home, pulling on the lead, and excessive barking. But barking is a communication so you don't necessarily want to stifle it as communication is vital - and some dogs are more communicative than others Similarly, some dogs have more of a tendency to pull on the lead, so lead training will be more work.

In your position, I'd be talking to potential breeders and saying that you really need a relatively quiet calm dog - they should know if this describes their breeding dogs and the puppies they produce. Or - I can't remember all of your wants/needs - have you considered getting a rescue dog from a good rescue that takes care to match their dogs with their owners? An older dog is also likely to be much calmer than a pup.

 

[Hemlock]

Some issues are training, some are management. You can rest assured that when people say they've tried "everything" that they haven't. It's a phrase they hide behind. For instance, in my professional days, I used to tell people whose dogs pulled on the lead that it would take me ten minutes to teach the dog, forty minutes to teach them (the owner) and would cost them whatever I was charging at the time. In all the dogs I've lead-trained, they have got the idea in less than ten minutes. You would be amazed how many people didn't want to put the effort and money in. Much easier to moan about their dog to anyone who can't get away fast enough.

Just as JudyN says - talk to breeders and find a laid-back low bark level type of dog within your breed. You can't train a laid-back nature but you can manage a dog so that they choose to relax. All puppies are destructive and bitey except a very few, so you arrange the pup's environment so that it can't destroy things you are fond of, and enrich the pup's life so that it has plenty of safe things to chew. That's management.

JudyN's advice is top-notch as usual.

 

[SaraE]

Thank you both , i chose to go with the Golden as there a rather quiet breed ( i still want a dog that barks to communicate with me as i often cant hear very well if someones at the door, nothing wrong with my hearing but the ringing can be so loud some days i cant hear much else) and i pointed in there direction by a Labrador breeder who had both and she said Goldens tend to be calmer than Labradors and there energy level is a tad less too and she really thought after getting to know me that the Golden was a lot more suited to my lifstyle as she said its not just about your Tinnitus we still need to look at your personality and lifstyle and your energy level and she really felt that a Golden is better suited than a labrador.

Ive found a few who have the condition i have and one has it loud like me and fully understood what i am looking for.

Interestingly the Labrador Breeder i spoke with also didn't think i would suit a Rottie either based off what i was looking for and what would suit me, she said even after you have gained experience my advice is stick with Goldens as there the breed for you.

Which i found interesting

 

[Colleen BA]

I've only ever had Golden Retrievers and German Shepherds and always found the Goldies to be easy to train and they're very empathetic dogs...they lock into your emotional state very easily. But remember they can be very big dogs too...my last one was 46kg and his head was huge! He was fully house trained at 9 weeks and never destroyed anything in the house. The only snag with Goldies is that once they're outside, their noses rule their brains and all they want to do is scent! But Goldies bring joy and happiness!

 

[SaraE]

I've only ever had Golden Retrievers and German Shepherds and always found the Goldies to be easy to train and they're very empathetic dogs...they lock into your emotional state very easily. But remember they can be very big dogs too...my last one was 46kg and his head was huge! He was fully house trained at 9 weeks and never destroyed anything in the house. The only snag with Goldies is that once they're outside, their noses rule their brains and all they want to do is scent! But Goldies bring joy and happiness!

Thank you so much for your experience with Goldens , im use to big dogs i was brought up around a lot of different breeds but mom always had at least 1 Newfoundland ( she doesnt have any now as there to big) so i often got sat or should i say squashed by a 60-70kg dog.

Has your experience been that there a fairly quiet breed as ive been advised?

 

[Colleen BA]

In my experience mine have been quiet, but there are quite a few in my village and there's a very wide range of temperaments, as you'd expect. JudyN & Hemlock's advice is key...make sure your breeder matches your needs. And obviously training and management are the key to any relationship with your dog, as you'll already know if you've grown up with dogs. I've always found Golden Retrievers to be eager to please so all they need is good communication.

 

[JacksDad]

I do have a question for you...why do you think you need experience with something other than a Rottie before you get one?

 

[SaraE]

I do have a question for you...why do you think you need experience with something other than a Rottie before you get one?

Becuase every person i spoke to in the breed ( Rottie) said there not for first time owners and that i need experience first and when i spoke to the breed club and some good breeders they all said the same that i need experience first and all of the breeders i spoke with said no to me having one due to the lack of experience.

The Labrador breeder i spoke with doesn't think they suit me anyway when she got to know me. So i might never get one anyway , im focussing more on my first dog the Golden and will re evaluate the decsion after ive had the Golden.

Im in the UK by the way. At least here you cant get a rottie from a good breeder without some kind of experience. I could get a rottie if i went to a bad breeder.

But i would prefer to get a different breed (Golden in my case) from a Good breeder then get a Rottie from a bad breeder. A good breeder is just if not more important than breed.

 

[Hemlock]

You might find it useful to contact people who breed/train guide dogs. They breed their own specifically for a tolerant temperament, but even so, many fail the course and are rehomed as pets. They are still nice dogs, though be aware that they don't get much training in what pet dog owners need (eg recall) so you would need to be confident in teaching basics.

 

[Ash2021]

Some issues are training, some are management. You can rest assured that when people say they've tried "everything" that they haven't. It's a phrase they hide behind. For instance, in my professional days, I used to tell people whose dogs pulled on the lead that it would take me ten minutes to teach the dog, forty minutes to teach them (the owner) and would cost them whatever I was charging at the time. In all the dogs I've lead-trained, they have got the idea in less than ten minutes. You would be amazed how many people didn't want to put the effort and money in. Much easier to moan about their dog to anyone who can't get away fast enough.

Out of curiosity what technique did you use for lead pullers? Not started lead training with Ash yet so really interested

 

[excuseme]

Unfortunately 1 years worth of experience with your first puppy/dog is very little indeed.
Of course you will gain, hopefully, some doggy knowledge but I suspect hardly enough to take on a second puppy with such very little experience.
I am sure your decision on the Golden retriever will work well but I would be concerned about a Rottie puppy so soon afterwards.

 

[SaraE]

Unfortunately 1 years worth of experience with your first puppy/dog is very little indeed.
Of course you will gain, hopefully, some doggy knowledge but I suspect hardly enough to take on a second puppy with such very little experience.
I am sure your decision on the Golden retriever will work well but I would be concerned about a Rottie puppy so soon afterwards.

I wouldn't have got the rottie until my Golden is at least 3 years old , however i have decided against a Rottie after i found out yesterday that next door has a major fear of rotties as she lost a hand to one and shes tried therapy and tried to be around puppy rotties but nothing has helped her , i dont want her to be in fear in her own garden or house if i got a Rottie so i have decided to not get one and focus on the Golden

 

[excuseme]

Whatever happened to your very first choice, a Bernese Mountain Dog.
Unfortunately I have not been able to keep up with all of your posts

 

[SaraE]

Whatever happened to your very first choice, a Bernese Mountain Dog.
Unfortunately I have not been able to keep up with all of your posts

Thats ok, a lot has happened since i chose the bernese which was the breed i originally wanted, a lot of experienced Berner owners said at home they can be very vocal and so not a good match with my tinnitus. So i had to cross them off my list.

I feel more contented with the Golden , i feel like i am getting the right breed for my condition and me even if its not a breed i originally looked at.

The Rottie is my heart breed my favourite breed but i know deep down there not for me thinking about it and being honest with myself i know i wanted one because i love them but i know they dont suit me, thats why i originally chose a berner as there similar to them but were more suited to me.

I remember @Hemlock i think saying on one of my past posts that there are quiter breeds but Goldens werent one of them. I appreciate if you could explain more hemlock, i know you said you have tinnitus too, for me its the fear of it going louder if im not careful and if picking a quiter breed will help my condition then thats what I'll do thats why im trying to be careful with what breed i choose and i know that ive chose a lot of different breeds but its because im trying to be as careful as possible to pick the right breed and get it right. And i want to start with a puppy first , i just feel more confident with a puppy.

Thats why i found it interesting @Hemlock that you Said in a previous thread that Goldens are not a quieter breed as everyone i spoke to said they are. By quiet i dont mean silent im looking for a dog who will settle and stop barking when i say , after a few woofs at the door stops once i say its ok. Im fine with talking noises and whines ect.

 

[JacksDad]

Because every person i spoke to in the breed ( Rottie) said there not for first time owners and that i need experience first and when i spoke to the breed club and some good breeders they all said the same that i need experience first and all of the breeders i spoke with said no to me having one due to the lack of experience.

For some breeds this can be good advice, however be suspicious, ask questions. Sometimes the reasoning for needing experience doesn't hold up as it is sometimes more about the human's self image, not the dog. Not trying to talk you into going back to looking for a Rotti, just that you might run into this with other breeds and questioning the reasoning behind "need experience" might be helpful to you.

One thing that should give anyone pause about any breed is when they are used as guard dogs. Which Rotties are. Having experience with socializing a dog can be a real need here, particularly if you are not wanting a guard dog. Also knowing how to manage a dog that by their nature could be suspicious of strangers is important. however, even within breed tendencies there can be a range for any one tendency. For example, Jindos. They are guard dogs, and the one I am most familiar with is for sure HIGHLY suspicious of strangers, and aloof even with people she knows and is technically comfortable with. But I worked with a young male Jindo a couple years ago who after about 5 min to get to know you, you could have sworn he was a people loving Labrador. he was all over you in the ideal, super friendly way. more pets, more kisses, more pets...did I mention the more pets? so at the end of the day, it really is about the dog in front of you.

The American Kennel Club includes this in their description.
"A well-bred and properly raised Rottie will be calm and confident, courageous but not unduly aggressive. The aloof demeanor these world-class guardians present to outsiders..."

There are some carefully worded warnings in there.

But people often will focus on

"....belies the playfulness, and downright silliness, that endear Rotties to their loved ones. (No one told the Rottie he’s not a toy breed, so he is liable to plop onto your lap for a cuddle.) "

Then become "shocked" when the dog does what it's genes "say" to do...guard. which can include displays of aggression to deter something/someone from approaching.

So there can be some validity to needing experience in this case. BUT I would argue it can also depend on the person and where you get your advice and training from.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

Being a dog with guarding tendencies, thus very likely to bark, and you having tinnitus...ya, probably not a good fit. Also, saw your post about your neighbor. highly considerate of you.

Have you given any thought to a Basenji. While not 100% silent, they are not known to be very vocal dogs. They are smaller than the dogs you have expressed interest in, but not so small that you wouldn't be able to have an active life with one.

 

[Hemlock]

Ash2021 Lead training technique is something I have to demonstrate rather than write as it needs good timing and an understanding of what the dog is "saying" - but basically it means nobody goes anywhere until the lead is slack.

SarahE "Quiet" means different things to different people, so if you have found breeders who say their dogs are quiet, you have a good base to work from.

 

[SaraE]

For some breeds this can be good advice, however be suspicious, ask questions. Sometimes the reasoning for needing experience doesn't hold up as it is sometimes more about the human's self image, not the dog. Not trying to talk you into going back to looking for a Rotti, just that you might run into this with other breeds and questioning the reasoning behind "need experience" might be helpful to you.

One thing that should give anyone pause about any breed is when they are used as guard dogs. Which Rotties are. Having experience with socializing a dog can be a real need here, particularly if you are not wanting a guard dog. Also knowing how to manage a dog that by their nature could be suspicious of strangers is important. however, even within breed tendencies there can be a range for any one tendency. For example, Jindos. They are guard dogs, and the one I am most familiar with is for sure HIGHLY suspicious of strangers, and aloof even with people she knows and is technically comfortable with. But I worked with a young male Jindo a couple years ago who after about 5 min to get to know you, you could have sworn he was a people loving Labrador. he was all over you in the ideal, super friendly way. more pets, more kisses, more pets...did I mention the more pets? so at the end of the day, it really is about the dog in front of you.

The American Kennel Club includes this in their description.
"A well-bred and properly raised Rottie will be calm and confident, courageous but not unduly aggressive. The aloof demeanor these world-class guardians present to outsiders..."

There are some carefully worded warnings in there.

But people often will focus on

"....belies the playfulness, and downright silliness, that endear Rotties to their loved ones. (No one told the Rottie he’s not a toy breed, so he is liable to plop onto your lap for a cuddle.) "

Then become "shocked" when the dog does what it's genes "say" to do...guard. which can include displays of aggression to deter something/someone from approaching.

So there can be some validity to needing experience in this case. BUT I would argue it can also depend on the person and where you get your advice and training from.

Anyway, just some food for thought.

Being a dog with guarding tendencies, thus very likely to bark, and you having tinnitus...ya, probably not a good fit. Also, saw your post about your neighbor. highly considerate of you.

Have you given any thought to a Basenji. While not 100% silent, they are not known to be very vocal dogs. They are smaller than the dogs you have expressed interest in, but not so small that you wouldn't be able to have an active life with one.

Thank you so much for your advice , that was very interesting to read.

I had already done a lot of research on what it mwans to own a Rottie and the commitment and hard work they can be , being guards and i knew they needed careful training and socialization but i dont need a guard and i know i can get everything i want in another dog.

I have looked at Basenjis and while they might not bark they yodel which is ear piercing to my tinnitus.

I really am happy with the Golden just trying to figure out if barking is somthing that can be trained.

I asked on a Golden forum and they said Goldens are more vocal than Labradors but not a yappy breed but some are saying you cant train a Golden to not bark. I dont want him to not bark just stop when i say.