Kidney Problems

[Bestie]

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Hi all K9'ers, I'm a relatively new member but log on most days, and I wonder if anyone can help me. As well as my beloved whippies I also have three shelties who live with my dad. One of these, Dillon, who is only 5, has developed acute kidney failure. He spent 4 days at the vets on the drip, has stabilised enough to come home on medication, and on a very strict diet. My vet has prescribed Hills Sicence Renal food and nothing else. The problem is, he hates it. He will only eat it if he is starving, and very little of it at a time. We have tried both the tins and the dried food. This has been 4wks now, and it would break your heart to see a dog, who loved his food, begging for something to eat & who cant't understand why he isn't being fed. Does anyone out there have any experience of this? Is there an alternative to Hills, that we can try? Any more natural food, or is there any herbs, or anything, I can give him to strengthen his kidneys. I would be so grateful for any help and advice. Thanks in advance.

 

[kita]

This has been talked about previously here:

http://www.k9community.co.uk/forums/index....90entry659090

I give a list of natural treatments in my reply to that question.

Hope you find some success with Dillon.

Sue

 

[jayp]

The research done recently has suggested there is no reason to put a dog on low protein diet for kidney failure in fact it is detrimental to their health ,as their kidneys are not functioning they cannot absorb the protein therefore they lose weight, what is needed is good quality protein, as little toxins as possible in either food or water so clean rainwater is so much better than tapwater.

I will post you the links to this later but am on dinner from work at he moment

Vets im sorry to say just find it easier to prescribe this prescription diet as not many have a good knowledge of nutrition. Jan

Not knocking vets but they cant have an indepth knowledge of everything

 

[Bestie]

Thanks for your help girls. it has really helped as I have no knowledge of kidney problems at all.

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

Hi Bestie.

Good quality food is important, as jayp says, but controlling the protein levels is just as important because protein metabolism in the body leads to production of waste products. In a normal dog, these waste products are filtered from the blood by the kidneys. In a dog with renal failure this process is not functioning properly and so the waste products build up and among other things they will make your dog feel really rotten

Prescription diets also have specific levels of minerals, particularly phosphate, which is vital to help support these animals. Often these cases develop high blood levels of phosphate which can be detrimental and so it's necessary to monitor and control intake of this.

There are a couple of other suppliers of renal diets - Royal Canin and Specific might be brands you can try.

If your dog has had acute renal failure, however, the long term outlook depends a lot on the severity of the insult to the kidneys. Your dog's inappetance could be due to azotaemia (build up of waste products in the blood, which makes them feel really sick), inflammation of the mouth, oesophagus or stomach (common in severe renal failure cases) or another reason entirely. Or he could just hate the food. Why don't you call up your vet and have a talk about this issue? Depending on the cause of the poor appetite there might be some medications which can help.

Good luck :luck:

Hi all K9'ers, I'm a relatively new member but log on most days, and I wonder if anyone can help me. As well as my beloved whippies I also have three shelties who live with my dad. One of these, Dillon, who is only 5, has developed acute kidney failure.  He spent 4 days at the vets on the drip, has stabilised enough to come home on medication, and on a very strict diet. My vet has prescribed Hills Sicence Renal food and nothing else.  The problem is, he hates it.  He will only eat it if he is starving, and very little of it at a time. We have tried both the tins and the dried food. This has been 4wks now, and it would break your heart to see a dog, who loved his food, begging for something to eat & who cant't understand why he isn't being fed.  Does anyone out there have any experience of this?  Is there an alternative to Hills, that we can try? Any more natural food, or is there any herbs, or anything, I can give him to strengthen his kidneys. I would be so grateful for any help and advice. Thanks in advance.

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[jayp]

Hi, just an extract from one site, will try and find the research paper for you too

Kidney Disease In Dogs

23

04

2008

I am concerned, because for the last week I have had numerous calls regarding pets with renal (kidney) disease.The number of calls has me concerned that there is an escalation of this disease. I also see that these symptoms appear with the 6 to 7 year old dogs. I’m suggesting that at this age the disease has had time to progress to this stage. In most of the cases the dogs have been fed a variety of heat processed grain diets. I have related earlier my theory about putting the right gas in the engine to have it operate most efficiently. At some point (could that be 6 to 7 years) the engine breaks down and in this case it may be the organ systems that malfunction first?

For the last 50 years, dietary protein restriction has been the recommended treatment for renal failure patients. This turns out to be a myth because actually a dog fed a higher than normal protein diet tends to have enhanced feelings of well-being. There are undesirable results associated with restricting dietary protein. If you restrict the dog or cats protein needs you end up with a reduced glomerular filtration rate, protein depletion (decreased body weight), muscle mass, anemia, and acidosis. It is ironic that the energy needs and the minimum protein requirements for dogs and cats with chronic renal failure are actually HIGHER than those of normal dogs and cats. In other words there are disadvantages to restricted protein diets. These include a reduced kidney function, a negative nitrogen balance, and the aggravation of a catabolic state. The obvious conclusion is that the pet must be put onto a raw food and raw meat diet. There is overwhelming evidence that high protein diets enhance renal function in normal dogs. Modern research has clearly shown that the concept of increased workload, protein intake causing injury to the kidneys, and reduced protein intake slowing the progression of renal disease ARE INCORRECT. This should be good news for all those pets that have been diagnosed with kidney function problems and are looking for a better solution than the recommended protein restricted diets.

 

[jayp]

Found the site, it has everything including links to the full research papers

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html#protein

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

Interesting reading, jayp, but I can't find any peer-reviewed articles :unsure:

Also, it is quite clearly quoted "Dietary protein restriction is appropriate in renal failure when the disease has become severe. Restriction of protein is based on the appearance of clinical signs. It has been recommended to start protein restriction when the dog's BUN (blood urea nitrogen) is greater than 80 mg/dL [28.6 mmol/L], and the serum creatinine is greater than 2.5 mg/dL [221 µmol/L]. Both BUN and serum creatinine are good indicators of kidney function. Protein is restricted in an attempt to keep the BUN below 60 mg/dL [21.4 mmol/L]. Dietary protein may need to be gradually decreased over time as renal failure progresses".

In fact, the conclusion to the article says that protein restriction is required in uraemic cases. Most animal in renal failure are uraemic.

It seems the whole site is geared towards proving that a high protein diet is not detrimental to dogs' health. Which is fine, but is totally irrelevant to Bestie, and it is a shame that you appear to have used his request for information to promote your own agenda. Unless you're privy to the degree of azotaemia experienced by Bestie's poor dog, it's pretty irresponsible to be advising on diet. You could inadvertantly be advising him to harm his pet

 

[LurcherLizzie]

I have no suggestions I'm afraid but wanted to wish you luck with Dillon. I can imagine it is heart breaking so sending him lots of :wub: .

 

[jayp]

Interesting reading, jayp, but I can't find any peer-reviewed articles  :unsure:
Also, it is quite clearly quoted "Dietary protein restriction is appropriate in renal failure when the disease has become severe. Restriction of protein is based on the appearance of clinical signs. It has been recommended to start protein restriction when the dog's BUN (blood urea nitrogen) is greater than 80 mg/dL [28.6 mmol/L], and the serum creatinine is greater than 2.5 mg/dL [221 µmol/L]. Both BUN and serum creatinine are good indicators of kidney function. Protein is restricted in an attempt to keep the BUN below 60 mg/dL [21.4 mmol/L]. Dietary protein may need to be gradually decreased over time as renal failure progresses".

In fact, the conclusion to the article says that protein restriction is required in uraemic cases.  Most animal in renal failure are uraemic.

It seems the whole site is geared towards proving that a high protein diet is not detrimental to dogs' health.  Which is fine, but is totally irrelevant to Bestie, and it is a shame that you appear to have used his request for information to promote your own agenda.  Unless you're privy to the degree of azotaemia experienced by Bestie's poor dog, it's pretty irresponsible to be advising on diet.  You could inadvertantly be advising him to harm his pet

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I was simply responding to a request for alternative views on the feeding of dogs with kidney disease, this site gives just that alternative views, it is up to the reader to interpret the data along with any other information they may research for themselves. I have no agenda full stop

 

[Bestie]

Thanks for your help, and thanks for your good wishes LurcherLizzie. I'm still confused whether he should be getting protein or not. At the minute he seems quite well in himself, and not being sick, so the medication must be doing some good. I'm going to try some of the dietary advice this weekend and see what he'll eat. I can't bear his wee face when hes' hungry and thinks I'm starving him.

 

[ILoveKettleChips]

Thanks for your help, and thanks for your good wishes LurcherLizzie. I'm still confused whether he should be getting protein or not.  At the minute he seems quite well in himself, and not being sick, so the medication must be doing some good. I'm going to try some of the dietary advice this weekend and see what he'll eat. I can't bear his wee face when hes' hungry and thinks I'm starving him.

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Bestie I am sorry that I went off at a tangent there. I am a vet and find it frustrating when people are given inappropriate advice on forums when really they need to be asking these questions of their own vet, who knows the details of the case. It also makes me sad that people feel they have to find advice for themselves when really their vet should be working hard to be approachable for anything like this.

The important thing is that you stay in contact with your vet to discuss this issue. It is really vital because only your vet knows the extent of your dog's kidney problems so you really should be discussing dietary changes with them. Also, it is important that Dillon does eat well, so please discuss alternatives with your vet, who is familiar with the case.

He/she will be able to advise you much more appropriately than forum members will. And good luck again :luck:

 

[jayp]

Thanks for your help, and thanks for your good wishes LurcherLizzie. I'm still confused whether he should be getting protein or not.   At the minute he seems quite well in himself, and not being sick, so the medication must be doing some good. I'm going to try some of the dietary advice this weekend and see what he'll eat. I can't bear his wee face when hes' hungry and thinks I'm starving him.

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Bestie I am sorry that I went off at a tangent there. I am a vet and find it frustrating when people are given inappropriate advice on forums when really they need to be asking these questions of their own vet, who knows the details of the case. It also makes me sad that people feel they have to find advice for themselves when really their vet should be working hard to be approachable for anything like this.

The important thing is that you stay in contact with your vet to discuss this issue. It is really vital because only your vet knows the extent of your dog's kidney problems so you really should be discussing dietary changes with them. Also, it is important that Dillon does eat well, so please discuss alternatives with your vet, who is familiar with the case.

He/she will be able to advise you much more appropriately than forum members will. And good luck again :luck:

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I can understand your frustrations here, and keeping in close contact with your vet is THE most important thing and on a regular basis.

You are 100% right in that no-one should self-diagnose their dog or try to manage a serious illness on their own

However experience and research sometimes throws up answers where non could be found to work previously.

I will give you one example where a forum reader had 6 months treatment with no improvement, in desperation they asked a few questions on here. Luckily a member recognised the symptoms and suggested a possible cause, when the appropriate treatment was tried by the vet the dog is now in recovery. This was a difficult to diagnose immune mediated condition that without intervention could have resulted in the death of the dog

It would be a shame if members felt they could not try to help without being castigated and accused of having an agenda where they have none other than a wish to pass on information and their own experiences

We all know that all illnesses and injuries are not the same and that the vet is the most important professional to treat their dogs illness

Good luck Bestie with your dog Jan

 

[Bestie]

Thanks everyone for your help. Dillon is to go back to the vet this afternoon for more blood tests, to see if the the medication is working. We are hopeful that it is as he is not being sick and is "himself", if you know what I mean. The feeding is still a problem, but we'll see what the vet says later.

I'll keep you posted, once again, many thanks, Bestie.

 

[louiejoe]

Thanks everyone for your help. Dillon is to go back to the vet this afternoon for more blood tests, to see if the the medication is working. We are hopeful that it is as he is not being sick and is "himself", if you know what I mean. The feeding is still a problem, but we'll see what the vet says later.
I'll keep you posted, once again, many thanks, Bestie.

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Hi Valerie, I've only just found this thread about poor :wub: Dillon . How did he get on at the vets today? Hope things are looking a bit brighter :b

 

[Bestie]

Thanks everyone for your help. Dillon is to go back to the vet this afternoon for more blood tests, to see if the the medication is working. We are hopeful that it is as he is not being sick and is "himself", if you know what I mean. The feeding is still a problem, but we'll see what the vet says later.
I'll keep you posted, once again, many thanks, Bestie.

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Hi Valerie, I've only just found this thread about poor :wub: Dillon . How did he get on at the vets today? Hope things are looking a bit brighter :b

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Thanks Tracy, apparently the levels of (whatever) are creeping up again. We're trying to perservere with the food, and just see how he goes. Dad is very upset, if possible, he's worse than I am about the dogs.