Let's Hear Your Views

[IanGerman]

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T Lewis's post (wag the dog) wandered off topic a bit, but brought up some interesting observations, which I'd like to air here.

One of which was the opinion of some that whippets in the UK had begun a trend towards "weedyness". By weedy, do you mean small? Or lightweight? (not necessarily the same thing)

It was always my own belief that we raced Pedigrees (as opposed to crossbreeds) in order to further the continuance of the breed - in which case I would suggest that we have done just that. Whippet racing, back in the day, was with dogs ranging from 8lb (yes, that's correct!) up to 40lb plus. The traditional whippet being pretty much a manufactured breed, and not bred for colour, has always been about variety - although I'd guess that the show people would argue against that. But as this is the whippet RACING forum in my opinion we have as varied a mix of dogs as ever there was. Well, excepting any 8lb-ers that is!

It could be argued (and probably with justification) that racers breed for speed, and speed only (within the confines of a weight graded system) and that niceties such as ear carriage, gait, toes, tail length and stance are pretty much disregarded. Well yes - but does that make them any less of a whippet?

I - along with many others I'd think - started off racing my show girls, but quickly became aware that pretty though they were - and my foundation bitch Belle won Best in Show at the Norwich and Norfolk - they could not hold a candle to the race bred dogs, and so I was forced to breed to a stud dog from racing lines. I like to think that the show blood has given my later generations something extra, but I'm probably deluding myself - one look at Frankie's ears is proof enough!

But weedy? I'm not convinced. Sure our lightweights would struggle to do 3 x 350 yard bends in one day, but then they don't have to. In short we breed for a specific task, and that task currently is 150 yards straight (or 240 yard bend) as fast as they can possibly go!

Over to you dear reader! :thumbsup:

 

[June Jonigk]

Very interesting topic Ian. I have a "weedy" 15lb'er, but she is as tough, and has as much stamina as the bigger dogs. I too started with show dogs, and can remember how much I disliked the skinny look of racing dogs when we first started. I remember saying how I'd never have them with their pin bones showing! We ran both of our bitches at 22lbs at first, but as we got used to the look of racing dogs, we slimmed them down to their eventual 19 and 20lb racing weights. I used to hate incorrect ears, but now I don't find it that important. It's strange how you get used to seeing whippets in different ways, and I now dislike the way some of the show whippets look - the majority are overweight, and the attempts of breeders to "improve their bone" has made some look short legged and stocky. I like a long, sleek, fit, well toned whippet, and that's what we have in racing. So, I suppose each to their own. :thumbsup:

 

[Scott Frodsham]

But weedy? I'm not convinced.  Sure our lightweights would struggle to do 3 x 350 yard bends in one day, but then they don't have to. In short we breed for a specific task, and that task currently is 150 yards straight (or 240 yard bend) as fast as they can possibly go!

I'd be dissappointed if one of my dogs couldn't manage 3 x 350 yards in a day! :b

 

[conway]

my own feelings are that a whippet is a running dog, so i dont like to see some of these "show dogs" ( not all but some ) that look like they would keel over after 50 yrds.

as for racing whippets not being able to sustain any distance check out the recent hill climb event, i think you will find that the 3 x 300+ uphill sprints were mostly won by pedigree racing dogs :thumbsup:

 

[Mark Roberts]

i've a 14lber thats more than caperble of doing 3 x 350yds small doesn't always mean weedy just as big doesn't always mean fast/strong.

 

[Poeta]

One of which was the opinion of some that whippets in the UK had begun a trend towards "weedyness".  By weedy, do you mean small? Or lightweight? (not necessarily the same thing)

Could you post some pictures of some of your top winning race dogs? By "weedy" I'm guessing it's the height to weight ratio. How tall and how heavy are your biggest racers? In North America I would guess that most of the males are over 40lbs and measure in between 22" and 22.5" (as a generalization). Could you give us some height/weight stats for the UK ped racer?

 

[sue greenwood]

Barney 30lb and 20 inches

 

[sue greenwood]

WCRCh Sunshine (Barney's Dad) 30lb 20 Inches

 

[mtotos]

when i read about the differerces between show and racing whippets it makes me laugh as we have always had racing greyhounds and i had never even seen a show greyhound till i visited crufts maybe 4 years ago i could not believe the difference! it was like looking at a comptetely new breed our dogs looked weedy in comparison ! but out dogs were bred for speed and strength and stamina,the show hound might have looked much bigger and had a much deeper chest but it would not be able to keep up with even the slower of dogs just as our racing dogs would be laughed out of the show ring! same breed of dog but amazingly bred completely differently !!!

 

[sue greenwood]

All of Sunshines children should be able to do 3 x 350 yrds and Piper, Barney's mum ( 183/4 inches and 26lbs ) has been best in field of 80 dogs at a meeting of the BSHA, involving 2 x 400yds runs.

Barneys, littermate, Gime is racing in Germany and winning at 350yds....He is 20'6", not sure of his wieght.

 

[Scott Frodsham]

( 183/4 inches and 23lbs )

:- "

 

[sue greenwood]

183/4 inches and 26lbs .... soz...

 

[BeeJay]

Here's my weedy racing bred dog. 19.5" natural racing weight 27lbs 12ozs.

 

[Judy]

You've beaten me too it Barbra - I was gonna put one on of Trouble looking like that. Fact is, the whole litter are like it.

Here's one of their dad - Time Keeper (26lb and 20")

 

[Judy]

And Another - from the front. Those are Nigel's knees - NOT mine (Thank God!)

 

[Judy]

And just for fun

 

[BeeJay]

:wub: Even if he doesn't like me. :teehee: Where did that tail come from?

That is so him. Beautiful pic of Ziggy.

 

[IanGerman]

Nice pics ) And not a weedy one among them - well in my opinion anyway!

I can though, see where T Lewis is coming from to a degree - by my own recollections of the first time I saw racing whippets myself. Or more specifically the lightweight ones. They looked hunched, miserable and in fact downright anorexic! Then you get talking to their owners and hear how much food they tuck away, and you see the speed at which they fly up the track (comparative to other "weedies" of course!) and your perspective changes a little.

The weight handicapping systems we use DO encourage the breeding of smaller/lighter framed dogs - let's face it if OUR racing was all-in we would all want the heavier dogs because there is no way a 14lb dog will beat a 30lb-er off scratch no matter WHAT the distance is (sticking neck out again - and NO I won't take your wager!) So despite the faults or otherwise of yard/lb format it DOES give us the excuse to keep the little whippets as well as the bigger ones.

 

[BeeJay]

The dog that springs to my mind when wondering if racing bred dogs have stamina is WCRCh Steadfast. He goes fell running with his owner Paul. That dog runs for miles with him. Just thinking about walking up one of those hills gets me out of breath and they run up and down 'em.

I'd have liked to have seen him race against the US dogs. That's not a macho statement btw just a sporting wish. Fabulous family pet too. Wonderful dog in my eyes. :wub:

 

[tlewis]

>T Lewis's post (wag the dog) wandered off topic a bit, but brought up some >interesting observations, which I'd like to air here.

Well know that I have been admonished by Ian for getting off topic I'll try and get back on track!

>One of which was the opinion of some that whippets in the UK had begun a trend >towards "weedyness". By weedy, do you mean small? Or lightweight? (not >necessarily the same thing)

By "Weedy" I mean that the ratio of muscle to bone is less than I personally like to see and that they are also lacking in substance.

Before I say anything further I should add that I am well aquainted with Whippets in England. I went to my first Whippet race in the 1950's, admittedly a non ped race in those days. Actually I hadn't the faintest idea if it was ped or non ped and was probably some of both. I don't think anyone cared too much. I had running dogs of some sort for the rest of the time I lived in England 'till 1979 when I left for America.

I was the first chairman of Telford Whippet racing club which catered for ped and non ped dogs rather like I believe the Northern does now.

I have visited the UK several times over the last twenty five years and always tried to fit in some sighthound events.

The last but one time, I visited I attended a bend race several miles outside of Tamworth Staffs and later visited with a gentleman who owned the dog in the pictures who had won her weight class. I can't remember the name of the dog or owner, but could probably find out.

Now I realise that the dog is stacked in a very poor stance, but she is a good example of what I call "Weedy".

Clearly the pictures of the other dogs that have been shown are not of weedy dogs. I never said that all dogs were weedy. Possibly since the pictures I took steps have been taken to correct the weedy trend. I remember Linda Wren telling me some years ago that some show lines had been bred to with some success.

It is still my contention that an infusion of some of the best blood from across the Atlantic or even from Europe could do nothing but good in improving conformation and above all speed in the UK pedigree racing Whippet.

There is only one way to find out.