Line Breeding

[jayp]

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Every single book, article I have read on this subject from the great breeders and stockmen of the past to the present day in all breeds state unequivicably close breeding should only be undertaken by those who are aware of every fault and virtue in their stock. Thebreeders of the past did not pet home their stock, they were either incorperated in their breeding program or if substandard,culled. They DID have the money to take problem stock out of the breeding program and start again if required. Problems were not hidden to be passed on.

Instead of congratulating ourselves on the number of champions produced look at the bigger picture of the world of pedigree dogs today and think THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD GO I

The more we learn the less we know, so think before you advise the novice breeder that close is the ONLY way to go there are alternatives which may serve the breed we love better in the future.

BLIMEY ITS TIRING ON THIS SOAPBOX jan

 

[Seraphina]

I randomly pulled two dogs from the early registrations of the breeding program in 1990 (not littermates but the two dogs shared one common dam via different sires) and two dogs from fourteen yeas later in 2003/2004 (not littermates or sharing common parents with themselves or either of the dogs born in 1990) and found that one dog born in 1990 was grand aunt of BOTH of the dogs born in 2004, while the second dog born in 1990 was great grandmother of one of the dogs born in 2003/2004, and grand-aunt of the other. 

This says to me that it is a lot harder to avoid linebreeding and inbreeding than anyone might imagine.

Lanny Morry

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Dogs A and B (1990) same dam

Dog A is a grandaunt of dogs C and D

Dog B is great grandmother of C

Dog B is a grandaunt of D

What exactly is your point Lanny? But, if you do comment, could you please try to be concise instead of posting your usual saga? By the way you not a politician are you? You are such a great obfuscator.

Yes, it would be difficult to find total outcross. But just because we believe in diversity does not mean we go out in search for total outcross. I look for a quality stud dog that best compliments my bitch. Full stop. That includes looking through his pedigree to see also his ancestors, to se how inbred he is etc.

To have the only criterion in choosing a stud dog that he would not be related, regardless of anything else, would be as ridiculous as breeding two dogs just because they are from the same lines.

 

[aslan]

Ease up Lida - it has been obvious you disagree with Lanny but now you're getting a bit pointed! Please keep it civil. Not everyone agrees with you but have let you have your say without making an attack on how you say it.

I, for one, have actually enjoyed reading Lanny's info about her breeding program - and I will readily admit that I am not a massive wave-the-banner Nevedith fan - but I am interested to see what Lanny is doing in her program. And consider the theories for myself.

 

[parnew]

Ease up Lida - it has been obvious you disagree with Lanny but now you're getting a bit pointed!  Please keep it civil.  Not everyone agrees with you but have let you have your say without making an attack on how you say it.
I, for one, have actually enjoyed reading Lanny's info about her breeding program - and I will readily admit that I am not a massive wave-the-banner Nevedith fan - but I am interested to see what Lanny is doing in her program.  And consider the theories for myself.

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Well said Lana !! I too have enjoyed the posts with Lanny. Lida PLEASE let people have their say with out you picking holes in their posts. I must say that I love to hear from other k9er's but if you keep cutting them down then no one will post. I myself have no problem with any of this.... a great read. :thumbsup:

p.s I'm not having go at you Lida just show a little respect for other peoples ideas and knowledge

 

[Tesa]

Ease up Lida - it has been obvious you disagree with Lanny but now you're getting a bit pointed!  Please keep it civil.  Not everyone agrees with you but have let you have your say without making an attack on how you say it.
I, for one, have actually enjoyed reading Lanny's info about her breeding program.  I am interested to see what Lanny is doing in her program.  And consider the theories for myself.

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Same goes for me Lida.

 

[Avalonia]

Ease up Lida - it has been obvious you disagree with Lanny but now you're getting a bit pointed!  Please keep it civil.  Not everyone agrees with you but have let you have your say without making an attack on how you say it.
I, for one, have actually enjoyed reading Lanny's info about her breeding program - and I will readily admit that I am not a massive wave-the-banner Nevedith fan - but I am interested to see what Lanny is doing in her program.  And consider the theories for myself.

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Well said Lana !! I too have enjoyed the posts with Lanny. Lida PLEASE let people have their say with out you picking holes in their posts. I must say that I love to hear from other k9er's but if you keep cutting them down then no one will post. I myself have no problem with any of this.... a great read. :thumbsup:

p.s I'm not having go at you Lida just show a little respect for other peoples ideas and knowledge

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Thank you all for your consideration but please don't mistake me for someone who is either a shrinking violet, or someone afraid to stand up for themself.

I have a pretty tough hide, which you have to have in the dog world which is made up of a lot of good, and a lot of not so nice people.

What we all have to reemember is that breeding programs are unique and a lot of ego goes into all of them. I have found over the past two and a half decades that the least desireable people to deal with are those who have so little in their lives that their dogs are, in essence, all there is, and so they may feel threatened if everyone does not agree with them.

Fortunately, I am not one of those people. I have led a very full life to this point, I have had a very successful career in the world of journalism and Canadian broadcasting from which I took early retirement in my mid-50s two years ago in March, I have since developed a large active daylily hybridizing program and turned that in partnership again with my son into an up and coming business, business, I have good friends worldwide that I have made because of our ownership of some of the best dogs ever bred -- by others and ourselves -- and their ownership of our dogs. I can honestly say I can stand proudly behind the Avalonia whippets we have here at home and who are found worldwide -- champions in more than a dozen countrys and the foundation of breeding programs in many of them, and be blessed proud of how well we have husbanded the dogs we have been entrusted with by people such as Nev and Edith, and other breeders, and those we have bred ourselves. I expect to stay in whippets for the rest of my life, which hopefully will be a very long time as I come from a very long lived line.

Gotta run. Gotta go put out my boy dogs into the brilliant sunshine and -30 C weather for a fast potty break for them!

Lanny

 

[dolly]

Lanny is open and honest in what she beleives in, i had the pleasure of meeting her at Major Baileys of the Fullerton Whippet fame about 18 months ago, and i know since then i have a new found friend. I always read what she has posted on here, which is more than i can say for a lot of other contributors :- "

 

[playawhile]

Lanny is open and honest in what she beleives in, i had the pleasure of meeting her at Major Baileys of the Fullerton Whippet fame about 18 months ago, and i know since then i have a new found friend.  I always read what she has posted on here, which is more than i can say for a lot of other contributors :- "

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Haven't all of us that have written in this thread been honest and open?? So beacuse you're friends other people's writing is not worth reading..........

Henrik Härling

 

[dolly]

Wow, that was a bit uncalled for. I was just stating that Lanny is open and passionate in what she beleives in. AS she was getting a slating from others.

It makes a change to have a passionate discussion without the usual sit on the fence comments.

I did not state i only read what my friends have wrote either :rant:

 

[dolly]

Wow, that was a bit uncalled for. I was just stating that Lanny is open and passionate in what she beleives in. AS she was getting a slating from others.

It makes a change to have a passionate discussion without the usual sit on the fence comments.

I did not state i only read what my friends have wrote either :rant:

Lanny usually writes very imformative articles, along with aslan, i havent met her :- "

Sorry it posted twice

 

[*Mark*]

Lanny is open and honest in what she beleives in, i had the pleasure of meeting her at Major Baileys of the Fullerton Whippet fame about 18 months ago, and i know since then i have a new found friend.  I always read what she has posted on here, which is more than i can say for a lot of other contributors :- "

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Haven't all of us that have written in this thread been honest and open?? So beacuse you're friends other people's writing is not worth reading..........

Henrik Härling

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I dont' think Helen said people aren't been open and honest is she?

As for worth while reading well that depends by what experience & success people arrive at the conclusion.

Modern breeding lines are a personal preference depending on what your ideal type is.

In my opinion your ability to get this right is judge by the success of those chosen lines.

 

[*Mark*]

I randomly pulled two dogs from the early registrations of the breeding program in 1990 (not littermates but the two dogs shared one common dam via different sires) and two dogs from fourteen yeas later in 2003/2004 (not littermates or sharing common parents with themselves or either of the dogs born in 1990) and found that one dog born in 1990 was grand aunt of BOTH of the dogs born in 2004, while the second dog born in 1990 was great grandmother of one of the dogs born in 2003/2004, and grand-aunt of the other. 

This says to me that it is a lot harder to avoid linebreeding and inbreeding than anyone might imagine.

Lanny Morry

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Dogs A and B (1990) same dam

Dog A is a grandaunt of dogs C and D

Dog B is great grandmother of C

Dog B is a grandaunt of D

What exactly is your point Lanny? But, if you do comment, could you please try to be concise instead of posting your usual saga? By the way you not a politician are you? You are such a great obfuscator.

Yes, it would be difficult to find total outcross. But just because we believe in diversity does not mean we go out in search for total outcross. I look for a quality stud dog that best compliments my bitch. Full stop. That includes looking through his pedigree to see also his ancestors, to se how inbred he is etc.

To have the only criterion in choosing a stud dog that he would not be related, regardless of anything else, would be as ridiculous as breeding two dogs just because they are from the same lines.

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A very strong and uncalled for reply.

I'm not sure this blinkered opinion will help you very much in your breeding program!!

I would be interested to know your experience and more importantly your success to date?

Champions Owned/Shown, Champions bred, Dogs Exported that have become Champions abroad?

 

[Happy Humber]

I think you will find that nearly all whippets are related if you trace back to Wingedfoot Marksman and Laguna Ligonier.This is mainly due to the second world war when there simply was not the number of dogs, due to the difficulty of keeping them and the fact there were no dog shows at that time.

Therefore it is practicaly impossible to find whippets today that are not decended from these two dogs and so they are already related to each other.

 

[playawhile]

Wow, that was a bit uncalled for.  I was just stating that Lanny is open and passionate in what she beleives in.  AS she was getting a slating from others.
It makes a change to have a passionate discussion without the usual sit on the fence comments. 

I did not state i only read what my friends have wrote either :rant:

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English is not my first language, so maybe I did not interpret you're intentions correctly and that case I am sorry!

 

[playawhile]

Lanny is open and honest in what she beleives in, i had the pleasure of meeting her at Major Baileys of the Fullerton Whippet fame about 18 months ago, and i know since then i have a new found friend.  I always read what she has posted on here, which is more than i can say for a lot of other contributors :- "

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​

Haven't all of us that have written in this thread been honest and open?? So beacuse you're friends other people's writing is not worth reading..........

Henrik Härling

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I dont' think Helen said people aren't been open and honest is she?

As for worth while reading well that depends by what experience & success people arrive at the conclusion.

Modern breeding lines are a personal preference depending on what your ideal type is.

In my opinion your ability to get this right is judge by the success of those chosen lines.

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I think the looks is the right way of measuring that, not the show wins..... Maybe the best whippet ever bred never was shown....

 

[dolly]

Wow, that was a bit uncalled for.  I was just stating that Lanny is open and passionate in what she beleives in.  AS she was getting a slating from others.
It makes a change to have a passionate discussion without the usual sit on the fence comments. 

I did not state i only read what my friends have wrote either :rant:

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English is not my first language, so maybe I did not interpret you're intentions correctly and that case I am sorry!

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Apology accepted

 

[*Mark*]

Lanny is open and honest in what she beleives in, i had the pleasure of meeting her at Major Baileys of the Fullerton Whippet fame about 18 months ago, and i know since then i have a new found friend.  I always read what she has posted on here, which is more than i can say for a lot of other contributors :- "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Haven't all of us that have written in this thread been honest and open?? So beacuse you're friends other people's writing is not worth reading..........

Henrik Härling

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

I dont' think Helen said people aren't been open and honest is she?

As for worth while reading well that depends by what experience & success people arrive at the conclusion.

Modern breeding lines are a personal preference depending on what your ideal type is.

In my opinion your ability to get this right is judge by the success of those chosen lines.

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​

I think the looks is the right way of measuring that, not the show wins..... Maybe the best whippet ever bred never was shown....

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I didn't state the success in the show ring. The success could also be in the field as a working dog.

As it happens my personal interest is in the show ring.

So, I ask you the question, how would you judge the 'looks' of a whippet if this is not in the ring against the same breed by defferent people over a period of time?

I am sorry but your point really has no substance.

 

[Seraphina]

I asked some very straight forward questions, like at what point does Lanny (or anybody else) consider a dog cryptorchid, which was very relevant to the discussion. Lanny responded with blow by blow description of her breeding program. Instead of talking about the problems, which close breeding can cause, this thread turned into Avalonia kennels total history lesson. Interesting or not, it has nothing to do with the OP.

 

[Avalonia]

I asked some very straight forward questions, like at what point does Lanny  (or anybody else)  consider a dog cryptorchid, which was very relevant to the discussion.  Lanny responded with blow by blow description of her breeding program.    Instead of talking about the problems,  which close breeding can cause, this thread turned into Avalonia kennels total history lesson.  Interesting or not, it has nothing to do with the OP.

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I did not start out on this topic with the intention of exposing our breeding program and I resent any suggestion that I did. In fact, as you go back to the start of the thread you will see that I tried to answer questions as an experienced breeder based on questions asked without motive. And I did so with answers provided without motive and purely in the interests of expanding discussion on matters of interest within the breed. More questions followed, and again I tried to answer honestly and fairly and unjudgmentally. I think most readers of this thread have recognized this reality.

Let me be perfectly honest. I have absolutely no need to promote our bloodline or our breeding program -- people from around the world have found our dogs to be healthy, longlived, without genetic problems, good pets, good show dogs and whatever -- and we have a waiting list that is years long for our dogs that we won't breed litters to produce simply because we do not think that is how you husband the breed you love. We breed with planning and care, thinking years in advance, and no amount of demand for our dogs will increase the number of litters we breed or the reasons for which we breed.

This said, I have to confess that we are delighted with the quality of homes we have found for our dogs -- be they housepets or show dogs -- over the duration of our breeding program because every dog is bred, and placed with care. Our primarly goal is to breed healthy dogs who make long-lived sane and healthy pets for those who take the dogs we breed into their homes and into the heart of their lives. That above all describes how we breed.

So, to be perfectly honest, we don't need to explain ourselves to anyone. We have a breeding program of perfectly healthy whippets who live long long lives -- very typically till they are thirteen, fourteen, fifteen and even sixteen, and who are not infested with known problems in the breed that many whisper about but do not discuss honestly and openly -- even though every one in the breed could benefit from such honest discussions.

I exposed our breeding program ONLY to show that if you DO care and you DO think, and you DO try and you DO assess every potential breeding and take DO think twice about everything and learn from where you went right and where you went wrong, then you can produce whippet bloodlines that are substantially, if not entirely, without problems.

So no Seraphina, I do have to apologize, because I have to confess I do not have the extensive knowledge of cryptorchids you seem to be searching for because -- VERY HAPPILY -- we don't produce them because our lines are clean and we don't have very much experience with them. Two dogs in 66! It is very hard to discuss what you are not producing!

I exposed our breeding program for the handful of peole who seem to be genuinely interested in learning what a kennel that has owned or bred several hundred whippets over several decades has done, and to give people who were asking an insight into why we have made the choices we have. I did this not to self-promote, but simply to illustrate the care and thinking we put into our breeding program and the production of every single litter. I did this to make people think about the responsibility of being breeders, and the importance that all breeders must attach to every decision they make about breeding a litter. I did so in the genuine interest of expanding breed information, not breed misinformation.

So having exposed our inner soul and the workings of why we have done what we have done, with the quite wonderful results we can proudly say that we have achieved, perhaps it is now time to sit back, pass on the torch and let others of you out there be as candid and as honest as I have been. I'm ready to read YOUR experiences because this hasn't been all about me or us. I'd be more than thrilled to see some of you detail your breeding experience and your results -- honestly -- as I have done, in the best interests of the breed.

So please, feel free to fill the space I have been occupying and expose your soul --and put your breeding programs under scrutiny as I have done, for the edification of us all.

And if someone is not prepared to do so, and stand the scrutiny of those who are here to learn and those who are here to lurk and then attack, for whatever reason, then I guess my last question is why are you not responding as honestly and fullsomely as I have done?

Yours, in the best interests of whippets, and not of whippet politics.

Lanny

 

[jayp]

To get back to the topic, i assume you have all read the links provided earlier in this discussion, if not abrief quote from inbreeding and linebreeding "in purebred livestock the situation is alittle different-we want homozygosity for those genes which create a desirable similarity to the breed standard.Wrights defence of inbreeding was based on this fact. However,inbreeding tends to remove those heterozygotes which are beneficial eg.MHC as well as desirable homozygotes. The practice is most dangerous in the potential increase of homozygous health problems which are not obvious on inspection, but which shorten the life span or decrease quality of life for the animal."

We now seem to be accepting of cryptorchidism in most litters as it is so common, its mode of inheritance not proven,it is proving to be a difficult problem to irradicate. would there be this level of acceptance if the condition was late in onset and proved to fatal The same spread could be expected with a different health problem, with disastrous consequences. I think i read somehere PRA in irish setters was traced back to just one dog,luckily this was a simple ressessive which with hard work and rigorous testing has been controlled.