Line Breeding

[~JO~]

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Line breeding is inbreeding end of

A coefficient of inbreeding calculates the probability of  the pair of genes (alleles) passed from each parent being the same.

It is very complex and is not as simple as saying close inbreeding is unacceptable and line breeding is ok as it does rather depend on how tightly bred the individuals are.

Any outcross will immediately reduce the inbreeding coefficient to 0  as the probability that the genes passed from each parent to the offspring being the same is 0

This is why knowing the inbreeding coefficient of your own breeding stock as well as that of the dog you are using enables you to consider this along with other aspects of the proposed mating.

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It is a shame there is not an easy bit of software that will help you calculate the coefficient. If it was part of the Whippet Archives it would be even better

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There is, Its Pedigree Software Breeders Assistant, the coefficient software is called Fspeed and there is a free download

I agree with you as it takes ages to put in the data but is worth it, to combine with the archives database would be brilliant

The Swedish KC provide this service to breeders

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Thanks well I have had a go, it is hard to know how far back to go...I've just done 8 generations for one of mine. Very interesting to be able to do this - but takes up a bit of time!

 

[Eceni]

Line breeding is inbreeding end of

A coefficient of inbreeding calculates the probability of  the pair of genes (alleles) passed from each parent being the same.

It is very complex and is not as simple as saying close inbreeding is unacceptable and line breeding is ok as it does rather depend on how tightly bred the individuals are.

Any outcross will immediately reduce the inbreeding coefficient to 0  as the probability that the genes passed from each parent to the offspring being the same is 0

This is why knowing the inbreeding coefficient of your own breeding stock as well as that of the dog you are using enables you to consider this along with other aspects of the proposed mating.

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It is a shame there is not an easy bit of software that will help you calculate the coefficient. If it was part of the Whippet Archives it would be even better

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

There is, Its Pedigree Software Breeders Assistant, the coefficient software is called Fspeed and there is a free download

I agree with you as it takes ages to put in the data but is worth it, to combine with the archives database would be brilliant

The Swedish KC provide this service to breeders

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The day the UK Kennel Club provides this service across all breeds - and breeders understand and use it, we'll have passed an astonishing and worthwhile milestone. I'm sure the technology is there, we just need the will to use it.

very impressed by the comments here

manda

 

[Seraphina]

I have also downloaded the CoI software, but I am still struggling to fill couple of gaps in my 10 generation pedigree. Then, with my typing skills, it will take me 10 years to type it in....

Is there any way to copy and paste into it?

 

[seaspot_run]

I heard a lot about the system in Sweden from my friends who went to the Congress and came back buzzing about all they had heard there.

What I think is that dog breeders are simply a subset of the overall culture. In Sweden and countries like it, people seem to have a completely different mindset than American breeders do. They are more likely to accept a level of restriction from above and view this as a chance to work creatively and cooperatively to comply, yet still reach their goals.

While I believe that many US breeders agree in principle with the broad, general outlines of the Swedish KC and the Swedish Whippet club and may choose to adhere to those concepts in their own individual breeding decisions, in practice, Americans are too strongly individualistic and resentful of regulation to accept such limitations on the autonomy of the individual breeder.

It's more a matter here of appealing to the individual conscience and making the convincing argument than it is working towards breeding restrictions on what types of matings can be made.

For my part, I am not opposed to periodic linebreeding, and have not personally found that I got lesser health overall than in my outcrosses, with one or two easily-anticipated exceptions. I've found that simple recessive health defects do occur with more frequency in tightbreedings, but haven't yet experienced the overall drop in fertility, or increase in autoimmune. However, I feel that beyond what an individual breeder does that is successful, the overall health of the breed depends on keeping a broad and varied gene pool alive from which all breeders can draw new blood from as needed. What worries me most here in the USA is that most all of our top show winners go back multiple times to the same five sire lines. I accept the scientific view of this and feel that if this trend continues, our polygenetic health issues will rise sharply. This would include autoimmune, cancers, and perhaps mitral valve defects.

I've tried to work some import blood, even though it might on occasion be import blood that carries its own unique issues that I don't already have here, into my scheme so that I can have some more diverse and less inbred pedigrees in my arsenal.

I think that the occasional inbreeding or tightbreeding is not a cardinal sin, but I think that for the most part, you should strive for at least a 4.0 COI or less in a five generation pedigree. And if you can get some totally unrelated import blood from time to time, it's wise to take advantage of that.

That's my current thinking on this, and as always, subject to change!

Karen Lee

 

[Seraphina]

what should we do as responsable breeders stay on our breeding lines or do outcrosses let me know your views

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I think you are asking the wrong question. When planning a litter you should be asking;

1- Which dog will best compliment my bitch.

2- Which dog is excellent in the trait that is my bitch's weakness

3- Which dog has the most wonderful temperament

Considering that most faults run in families, especially inbred families, you would be hard pushed to find a dog that is closely related that does not have the same faults as your bitch. Or at least does not carry the same faults.

Breeding to phenotype, means you still can set your type, but without reducing your genetic diversity. If you breed 2 dogs of the same colour but from totally different lines, you will still get pups of that colour. You do not need to breed 2 related dogs to get it.

 

[GotWhippet?]

If you don't linebreed then how do you expect to maintain type? It's nice to say I like this part of this dog and I want this feature on this bitch, you can put the two together and get a whole litter of nice whips or a whole litter of nothing worth keeping to breed on with.

All breeders use different methods in their breeding program Ie: breed phenotype to phenotype, line bred 1 generation then outcross and then back into your own stock, or pick by virtue of each dog. No one way is correct and LUCK is also involved. You can breed 2 dogs together for 2 different matings and get two entirely different litters.

If linebreeding causes so many problems then why do the puppy farmers who use mixed breeds still get problems? I don't believe in hybrid vigor.

Bottom line is breed from healthy dogs with a line known for it's longevity and test your own stock. From my experience with Newfoundlands, I don't trust other breeders or stud owners when it comes to assurances of having no genetic faults in their stock so I test my own dogs. Unfortunately there are some breeders who lie about what nasties their stock can pass on.

 

[seaspot_run]

I understand the theory--I just have some questions raised by my direct observations of the practice.

For example--a see a lot of Goldendoodles, which are crosses of Golden Retriever and Poodles.

They seem to have the unique genetic health concerns of BOTH breed strains, as opposed to just one, yet they are as outcrossed as outcrossed could be (without crossing to a wolf or dingo, I guess).

I think that we are moving into a brave new era. We can perhaps in the future give blood samples and cheek swabs that can determine the exact match of DNA relatedness between two parents, as opposed to the less exact method of analyzing pedigrees.

 

[~JO~]

I have also downloaded the CoI software, but I am still struggling to fill couple of gaps in my 10 generation pedigree.  Then, with my typing skills, it will take me 10 years to type it in....
Is there any way to copy and paste into it?

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Only thing I found was copying and pasting from TWA, one name at a time (w00t) B (w00t) t I found this easier than typing with the more obscure names I am not as familiar with

 

[Eceni]

All of the questions re: hybrid vigour, the dangers of line breeding and why 'if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got' doesn't apply to dog breeding are answered with clarity, humour and sense in Natalia's paper to the Congress.

If you have a chance, it would be well worthwhile to read it.

m

 

[Seraphina]

If linebreeding causes so many problems then why do the puppy farmers who use mixed breeds still get problems?

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Why would you think that puppy farms do not inbreed? It is very likely they keep one male, use it over all their bitches, including his daughters and granddaughters, and only replace him when he gets too old. Most likely by one of his sons.

As others already mentioned; the crosses can inherit problems from all the breeds in their background. Together with bad husbandry and bringing up pups on cheap, it is not surprise that they may have problems.

There are 2 factors in health concerns connected with genetic diversity;

1- inbred animals have compromised immune system

2- closely bred animals are likely to carry the same damaged genes, so it is more likely that their progeny will inherit the pair and will have the inherited disease.

 

[Canteronboy]

I have a pedigree database with the ability to calculate COI over a varied number of generations. What is the accepted number of generations to use in this calculation ? and what would be an average and what would be Ideal COI if in breeding has already been used in a breeding program ?

 

[GotWhippet?]

If linebreeding causes so many problems then why do the puppy farmers who use mixed breeds still get problems?

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Why would you think that puppy farms do not inbreed? It is very likely they keep one male, use it over all their bitches, including his daughters and granddaughters, and only replace him when he gets too old. Most likely by one of his sons.

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I didn't say they didn't inbreed but there would also be ones that don't inbreed as well . I should have broadened my statement to say that 2 dogs of entirely different breeds can still get problems when bred together.

 

[fourpaws]

This is an interesting topic. It is so refreshing to see that this time this is being discussed in an honest way without people being 'slagged off' It is a pity that last time certain people could not be mature enough to listen to others point of view. Everyone has an opinion and this is what forums are for to discuss in a mature and open way. I hope that this can be kept going without someone ruining it. We can all learn from each other. This is the way forward.

 

[Seraphina]

[. I should have broadened my statement to say that 2 dogs of entirely different breeds can still get problems when bred together.

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Of-course they would. The dogs from parents not related but carrying the same recessive genes will be as affected as dogs bred from parents related. It does not matter where the genes come from. Just like if you mate 2 dogs, lets say blacks carrying fawn, you will get some fawn pups. It does not matter whether the parents are brother and sister, or 2 totally different breeds.

But you are lumping together 2 separate issues = inherited diseases and such things as impairment of immune system due to insufficient variety of major histocompatibility complex cells.

 

[Eceni]

I have a pedigree database with the ability to calculate COI over a varied number of generations. What is the accepted number of generations to use in this calculation ? and what would be an average and what would be Ideal COI if in breeding has already been used in a breeding program ?

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Malcolm Willis said a while back that nothing should have a CoI higher than 10%. I think Natalia in her paper was advocating 2-3% as an ideal for the long term 40-generation survival of any breed, but said it might take a while to get to that.

as far as measuring goes, 5 generations would seem to be a minimum. If you can face going over that, then it doesn't hurt, the numbers become more accurate with each succeeding generation, but you're also typing in a lot of names. If the databases were made public, then it could theoretically be done right back to the start of the breed - computers nowadays can crunch the numbers, it's just down to the hassle of feeding in the figures

manda scott

 

[GotWhippet?]

I'm not lumping 2 issues together, you are. I didn't mention anything about impairment of the immune system either.

I guess I better sneeze around my whippet (that is a result of a father/daughter mating) and her insufficient variety of histocompatabilty complex cells :wacko:

 

[Canteronboy]

The Kennel Club at one stage did have pedigree software & you could purchase the database & have a update every Quarter. not sure if it had COI abilities thou

I think that the software itself is no longer available but unsure if people with the database can still get the updates.

I do think that perhaps Gay Robertson of Moonlake whippets had some input at one stage. (Could be wrong)

 

[kerrie.picolo@btinternet.com]

The Kennel Club at one stage did have pedigree software & you could purchase the database & have a update every Quarter. not sure if it had COI abilities thou
I think that the software itself is no longer available but unsure if people with the database can still get the updates.

I do think that perhaps Gay Robertson of Moonlake whippets had some input at one stage. (Could be wrong)

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as we are on the subject of breeding do you think we should have all our breeding stock d n a

 

[Seraphina]

as we are on the subject of breeding do you think we should have all our breeding stock d n a

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I have had my dogs' swabbed and DNA registered. But at present there is no genetic test available for any problem in Whippets here in Australia. The company does not plan to start any either, as to set up the test is expensive, so unless there is a problem widespread in the breed they will not do it.

Do you have tests available for Whippets in the UK?

 

[Sachiko]

I have a pedigree database with the ability to calculate COI over a varied number of generations. What is the accepted number of generations to use in this calculation ? and what would be an average and what would be Ideal COI if in breeding has already been used in a breeding program ?

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here in Finland it seems to be a spirit, that calculating coi is for nothing, unless you take in atleast 8 generations. Personally I prefer 10.