Litter Size

[mally]

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My bitch recently had a litter of ten.She reared everyone of them and they all turned out good sized pups.There was no runt in the litter and the bitch was in great condition thoughout. I would never consider culling healthy pups and if anyone even considered doing so. IMO they shouldn't even own a bitch let alone consider breeding from it.

 

[05whippet]

I totally agree with Nina :thumbsup:

YOUR bitch,technically YOUR litter, YOUR responsibility!!

 

[JAX]

I totally agree with Nina  :thumbsup:
YOUR bitch,technically YOUR litter, YOUR responsibility!!

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And thats FOR LIFE ! :thumbsup:

 

[Mark Roberts]

IMO they shouldn't even own a bitch let alone consider breeding from it

Well Said.

 

[maggymills]

agree with whats been said-

at xmas time at vets where i work there was a caesarian of a top class great dane- one of the pups came out all white and deaf- i took it to the owner & breeder and she said immediatley- pts now. so i went & called another nurse and asked her if she wanted a white deaf dane- of course she said yes- and now 'numpty' is a healthy 8 month old dane- who watches handsignals-

there is no reason to kill pups, even if a health prob pops up- sometimes it can still be saved...

 

[05whippet]

agree with whats been said-at xmas time at vets where i work there was a caesarian of a top class great dane- one of the pups came out all white and deaf- i took it to the owner & breeder and she said immediatley- pts now. so i went & called another nurse and asked her if she wanted a white deaf dane- of course she said yes- and now 'numpty' is a healthy 8 month old dane- who watches handsignals-

there is no reason to kill pups, even if a health prob pops up- sometimes it can still be saved...

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What a lovely story :wub: Just goes to prove everyones point if this owner/breeder had got her way poor "numpty" would'nt exist and apparently it is very common & easy for dogs to learn sign language but hey that's another thread (w00t)

 

[doris]

Intresting when a question was asked recently with regard to having a bitch spayed before her first season all hell broke loose yet we are now discussing killing sorry "culling" puppies quite rationally.

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Perhaps its cos most of us have experience, and therfore a valid opinion on neutering our dogs, so maybe its easier to rationally discuss something that is extremely unlikely to be experienced by most of us? :wacko:

All I can add is my own opinion, which is that I would hate to see anything suffering - human or animal - so being able to prevent or end suffering can be a blessing

However, a bitch struggling to bring up a large litter is not suffering, she is living, just like nature intended us all to do!

At least she is lucky in that once her babies are old enough to feed themselves they do so - ours cling on for years (w00t) (oops, sorry, flippent again!)

 

[JAX]

Numpty , what a great name!! :wub:

 

[lalena]

I totally agree with Nina  :thumbsup:
YOUR bitch,technically YOUR litter, YOUR responsibility!!

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And thats FOR LIFE ! :thumbsup:

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totally agree, this sums up my personal opinion. i was merely saying before, what some vets and breeders consider 'valid', though i disagree, reasons for culling. i paraphrased a bit from 'the book of the bitch', where it states that 'deliberately breeding mongrels is extremely foolish' i somehow believe that the authors havent met lurchers, though, as i know from k9 that many are great working dogs, but my using their text was meant more for those awful people who breed 1st a pedigree litter, then a cross litter etc etc in order to keep making money out of their bitches while keeping within the 6 litter maximum quota from the kennel club. my mother in law purchased a pair of 'pedigree crosses' from a couple who specialise in breeding pedigree labradors and pedigree border collies. as they were £300 a pop, £500 the pair, copying such matings can seem very tempting to greedy people.

back on track, sometimes culling a litter is valid, if for health reasons. accidents do happen, but my natural preferance is to rear the litter as if it was planned, and do right by mum and babies, and in my experience people who are quick to cull without good reason are best avoided. although saying that, some of the older generation wouldnt see a problem with just culling pups or kittens, as in their day, there werent options available. i can speak from experience, as my greatgrandmother comes from farming stock, where it was common practice to drown the mouser cats kittens so as not to become overrun with cats and endanger their chickens and young geese, which happened enough with roaming tom cats and foxes.

ultimately, it depends on your upbringing, experiences etc as to what is considered a valid excuse to cull.

 

[Seraphina]

agree with whats been said-at xmas time at vets where i work there was a caesarian of a top class great dane- one of the pups came out all white and deaf- i took it to the owner & breeder and she said immediatley- pts now. so i went & called another nurse and asked her if she wanted a white deaf dane- of course she said yes- and now 'numpty' is a healthy 8 month old dane- who watches handsignals-

there is no reason to kill pups, even if a health prob pops up- sometimes it can still be saved...

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Totally white (albino) Great Danes are accasionally born in a harlequin litter, they will usually be deaf with pale blue eyes which will be damaged by sunlight, and the dog will go also blind, usually before it is 1 year old. As they have no pigment they will also be prone to skin cancer. Therefore most breeders would put them to sleep immediately. I once met one and although his owners only let him out after dusk (to preserve his sight) he was almost totally blind by the time he was 5 months old. He tried to play and run, and kept running into things. His head was one huge bruise next to other. He had no quality of life and was pts soon after i saw him.

I hope Numpty has some pigment in the eye and will not go also blind.

Lida

 

[BeeJay]

My bitch recently had a litter of ten.She reared everyone of them and they all turned out good sized pups.There was no runt in the litter and the bitch was in great condition thoughout. I would never consider culling healthy pups and if anyone even considered doing so. IMO they shouldn't even own a bitch let alone consider breeding from it.

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A couple of years ago there was a litter of 13 racing bred whippets all reared successfully and doing v well on the track.

However some deerhounds have been known to produce litters of 17 pups. Because of the difficulties of rearing that number and of finding good homes for large numbers of these dogs I've heard of deerhound breeders culling down litters.

I also know of other breeders of rarer sighthounds who say that they cull down their litters which is to do with finding goods homes for the pups.

 

[stephen mason]

Thought I would try to summarize the replies to my original posting. Culling is certainly not an accepted practice and most would not cull except in the case of a pups which are seriously weak, sickly and deformed. Some accept culling where a misalliance has occurred. I understand this to mean your pedigree whippet bitch went for a walkabout and produced a mongrel litter. In this case ,if I have correctly understood, the litter would be culled except for a pup or two for which pet homes would be found. A sire/daughter mating has been mentioned as a valid reason for culling. We had a sire/daughter litter of 5 which produced no problems. To get myself into hot water I believe a sire/daughter mating cannot be all that bad as a study of whippet pedigrees reveals the same names over and over again ( Dutch Gold, Cobyco Cavalier, Coeur de Lyon etc. etc.) Some must be totally anti hunting as they would not kill any animal. Are hares vermin?. Rabbits and foxes probably are but I stand to be corrected. Rare breeds which produce very large litters present a problem as it would appear extremely difficult to find good homes for the complete litter. Would it ,therefore,be correct to allow rare breeds to become extinct or would it be correct to control litter size and keep the breed alive?. There probably is not an easy answer to these questions. As regards white boxers and mismarkings I do not see why pet homes cannot be found. Apparently the Shearer sisters who bred the Meander whippets did a great deal of culling according to Louis Pegram`s "The Complete Whippet". I believe this was in the 30`s before many of us, not all, were born. Of the 13 whippet puppies born some months ago only 4 are looking for goob homes. Regards, Stephen

 

[chelynnah]

I probably wouldn't hold the Shearer sisters as a high example of what was acccepted. It's my understanding that they did many things to please themselves including re-writing the standard to suit one of their dogs (which is why a dark eye is a REQUIREMENT in the US standard).

I also suspect that the examples given such as a pure/nonpure mating or accidental father/daughter mating were stretching to find something they could understand. I could probably understand that as a better reason than large litters, but that doesn't mean I accept it or would do it.

I don't believe in culling healthy animals. What criteria do you use in a breed like Whippets? What if the ones you cull would have been the best and the ones you are left with aren't good enough to be bred from? How does that preserve a breed?

Me personally - If I breed and I'm prepared to be 24/7 nursemaid if my bitch dies, then why wouldn't I provide the same care if my bitch was fine, but had too many pups? If I wasn't prepared to keep the pups for as long as I needed to find the right homes then why would I breed? Most breeders I know have a 'take back' clause in their contracts where they will be responsible for any dog they have bred for it's lifetime and if someone can't keep it they will take it back - feasibly if you've bred 40 dogs that means you could get 40 back. Numbers don't work that way, but stuff happens and if you breed you are responsible for what you produce. Killing because the number is inconvenient is inconceivable to me.

Just my .02

Wendy

 

[Strike Whippets]

My bitch recently had a litter of ten.She reared everyone of them and they all turned out good sized pups.There was no runt in the litter and the bitch was in great condition thoughout. I would never consider culling healthy pups and if anyone even considered doing so. IMO they shouldn't even own a bitch let alone consider breeding from it.

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A couple of years ago there was a litter of 13 racing bred whippets all reared successfully and doing v well on the track.

However some deerhounds have been known to produce litters of 17 pups. Because of the difficulties of rearing that number and of finding good homes for large numbers of these dogs I've heard of deerhound breeders culling down litters.

I also know of other breeders of rarer sighthounds who say that they cull down their litters which is to do with finding goods homes for the pups.

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You beat me to it ........it's catch 22 ....if the breeder's of these type's don't breed they'll end up losing that breed ......but if they do breed due to the huge litter sizes then homes for all would be damn near impossible :blink:

 

[nina]

Sorry, i thought we were just talking about whippets here. I have no experience of breeding litters such as Deerhounds myself etc BUT if they were my chosen breed i would have to think long, hard & seriously about the outcome.

If i knew i had a number of good certain homes lined up AND could afford to keep any surplus pups then yes i would go ahead. If the answer was no & i debated on my bitch having a litter of 17 then NO quite frankly i would not breed.

Lets face it i doubt EVERY Deerhound is going to produce 17 pups just as every whippet produces 13 pups, infact a friend of mines last Deerhound litter was 8, so i seriously doubt the breed or ANY breed for that matter is ever going to become extinct as there is always going to be someone who will breed regardless of the outcome.

We are talking about personal opinions here & whatever the breed if i was not certain that a. i could afford it. b. i could home all the pups in genuine good homes. c. i could not take back any pups if a problem arose, then PERSONALLY if my only option was to resort to culling i simply would not breed.

BUT, this is just me & my views & yes i think culling for these reasons is wrong, BUT everyone thinks differently. I personally just dont agree with taking a life without a valid reason & the fact of "Oh dear, i've bred a litter of Deerhounds etc cos i wanted the litter, now i cant find homes for them, what shall i do, i cant afford or have the room to keep them" isn't a valid reason in my books. Simple answer DONT BREED!

If it is for the good of the breed, what happens if for example you have a litter of 17. You cull it down to a more acceptable number of say 8 (9 lives you've taken). You keep 1 pup for yourself & home the other 7, what if say 3 or 4 of the homes dont work out for whatever reason, can you then take all those now maybe bordering on adults back? NO? Not got the space, money etc? So what happens then, put them to sleep?? How in gods name does this do the breed any good by breeding healthy beautiful examples of the breed to kill them again?

Moral of the story....................................WHATEVER the breed, if you want to preserve it think long & hard about what you are doing & what the outcome will be. DONT rush into breeding without pondering the outcome, instead of churning out litters you know you cant cope with WAIT, be patient if you can only have a litter every 5 or more so years but know you can then have homes waiting, be patient instead of wanting to breed every year or 2.

Nina

 

[bardmand]

Rare breeds which produce very large litters present a problem as it would appear extremely difficult to find good homes for the complete litter. Would it ,therefore,be correct to allow rare breeds to become extinct or would it be correct to control litter size and keep the breed alive?

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If killing large numbers of pups is what it takes to be able to keep a breed alive, then, no, perhaps that breed is not viable in today's society. If for nothing else, I don't think the general public would agree with killing perfectly healthy puppies.

I followed a discussion on an Australian Internet forum in which it was claimed that breed preservation was the rationale behind Afghan hound and Bloodhound breeders killing their pups. If the Afghan hound is on the verge of extinction, why are there never any talks about importing hounds from where they originated? "Breeds" as we know them are only about a hundred years old, and no breeds are "pure". If the gene pool of a breed is becoming alarmingly narrow, why not even introduce new blood from other, related "breeds"? Those of you familiar with the breeding programme to introduce the stumpy tail gene from the Corgi into the Boxer gene pool will realize how few generations it takes to get the original breed type back.

I know that killing "superfluous" pups is practiced in some societies where resources are scarce, but that is a completely different matter IMHO. Let's face it - how many of us need our whippets (or Afghan hounds or Bloodhounds) to help sustain ourselves?

 

[nina]

I for one know of very few Afghan breeders in the UK today who are prepared to cull.

On the whole breeders here now take their whole breeding programme a LOT more seriously & very many only have a litter every few years or so when they know they have homes waiting. Having said that i know there are a VERY small percentage of "old school" breeders who still beleive in culling many dog puppies as they know there just isn't a pet market for them but decide to continue keep breeding regardless, i guess the same in any large breed.

I am speaking mainly of the caring, serious, reputable breeders i know, not your back street oinks that will breed any given breed willy nilly to make a fast buck.

I know dedicated breeders who would love nothing more than to mate their Ch Bitch BUT will hang on till they know they have enough homes to safely breed that litter.

Not like in the 70's when they were bred wholesale because of the glamour that surrounded them.

Unfortunately because of the number of back street breeders who do breed willy nilly & sell their pups to wherever they can make a fast buck without telling the owners the hard work & dedication this breed requires is why we still have a very high percentage of Affies going thru Rescue every year.

I have 2 Affies, one rescue & one bred by a top breeder that i show. I love both dearly, they are damn hard work, 4-5 hours baththing & grooming every weekend alone. As much as i love them & dearly love the breed, NEVER would i contemplate breeding as i would never risk the outcome. No matter how many homes i had waiting i would be for ever thinking "what if she produces twice that amount" & i for one would not be prepared to take that risk.

So going back to what i've previously said, if you think long & hard & cant honestly guarantee a happy stable outcome for all the pups you are considering producing, DONT DO IT.

Nina

 

[Seraphina]

If killing large numbers of pups is what it takes to be able to keep a breed alive, then, no, perhaps that breed is not viable in today's society. If for nothing else, I don't think the general public would agree with killing perfectly healthy puppies.

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You took the words right out of my mouth!

This is very much the case of Borzois. To me they are the best dogs there are, but they are just too big to live in suburbia, and at least here in Australia they do not appeal to many people. Breeding borzois is an expensive hobby, the only way to find homes for your occasional litter is to run a large permanent advertisement in a dog magazine and an entry in yellow pages. That way you would be able to place pups in good homes, but do not expect to break even on breeding the litter.

Before dogs were routinely desexed it was normal (and necessary) practice to cull pups in accidental litter. So it is not fair to compare practice acceptable in the 30' of the last century to now. I would hope that we have progressed somewhat.

If I decide to breed a litter I make sure I am prepared for whatever eventuality; be it midnight caesarian or 20 puppies, which I might have to keep many months, untill good homes are found for all of them. And money does not come into it.

Lida