- Messages
- 1,224
- Reaction score
- 320
- Points
- 83
No one, except you, Leashed for Life, used the word "dominant" to describe any inter dog relationship.
The Most Dog Friendly Community Online
Join Dog Forum to Discuss Breeds, Training, Food and More
New dog in the pack
- Thread starter TessaGirl
- Start date
- Messages
- 1,791
- Reaction score
- 843
- Points
- 113
INSERT:
Sorry, i couldn't shift the 1st block of text so that i could write a note above it -
in bold, italics, or both are the highlighted phrases which MADE ME THINK that we were discussing the long-disproven belief that "dogs, just like wolves, fight for status within the group constantly - either overtly thru physical violence, or covertly via intimidation, etc."
Am i correct in thinking that we are discussing so-called 'pecking order' AKA dominance order AKA pack hierarchy?
If so, my statement stands.
If not - what, precisely, are we talking about when the OP refers to the new dog "vying for pack-leader"?- terry
Last edited by a moderator:
- Messages
- 1,224
- Reaction score
- 320
- Points
- 83
I can see that you are very worried that people will pick up from the above posts that dogs are "dominant". Here in the UK we are not, thankfully, subjected to Cesar Milan on a daily basis. We can still find him on the internet but a whole bunch of doggy fold got together to get him banned from holding seminars in this country. One of our heroes, Alan Titchmarsh, challenged his thinking in a national tv programme. We are, therefore, much more relaxed about it than you appear to be. Yes it rears its ugly head every now and then but the vast majority of people know that their dog is not trying to take over the world when it behaves badly.
What is harder to get across is that dogs interact with each other with lots of nuanced body language. Some subtle some not so subtle. If we interfere with that process by jumping in and directing their behaviour it can bring all sorts of stresses into our dogs' lives.
Terms such as Alpha dog and pecking order are just ways of describing normal dog to dog interactions so that people can get a picture of it. No one is suggesting that the dogs are dominant and need a rank reduction programme. We just believe in letting the dogs sort things out amongst themselves while keeping a weather eye on things to make sure that, once sorted, harmony prevails.
It is pretty well known that the only real behaviour to worry about is bitch to bitch aggression that is rooted in a dispute over territory. This is almost always intractable and usually results in one bitch being re homed. It is not common but can happen. All other disputes over behaviour or resources usually sorts itself out as long as all the needs of each dog are being met in other parts of its life.
So, fear not, we are not labelling our dogs as dominant just recognising all their individual traits and respecting their individual needs.
What is harder to get across is that dogs interact with each other with lots of nuanced body language. Some subtle some not so subtle. If we interfere with that process by jumping in and directing their behaviour it can bring all sorts of stresses into our dogs' lives.
Terms such as Alpha dog and pecking order are just ways of describing normal dog to dog interactions so that people can get a picture of it. No one is suggesting that the dogs are dominant and need a rank reduction programme. We just believe in letting the dogs sort things out amongst themselves while keeping a weather eye on things to make sure that, once sorted, harmony prevails.
It is pretty well known that the only real behaviour to worry about is bitch to bitch aggression that is rooted in a dispute over territory. This is almost always intractable and usually results in one bitch being re homed. It is not common but can happen. All other disputes over behaviour or resources usually sorts itself out as long as all the needs of each dog are being met in other parts of its life.
So, fear not, we are not labelling our dogs as dominant just recognising all their individual traits and respecting their individual needs.
I am very happy to say that, very quickly, all three of my dogs have settled down and now get along for the most part. The only time things rear up is when Eddie, the GSD gets over excited about something, like going for a walk. By the time we are halfway round the walk, he has settled down. Mostly they now wander around each other and settle down to sleep near each other with no trouble. If he gets OTT, the girls will let him now and he is now taking note of their warnings. This is new to me because I normally only take on puppies and don't have any trouble. Eddie is still young but has learned behaviors which have not been trained out of him yet - I am hoping that his age is in my favor and I can turn some of this around.
My biggest problem now is that I fear he has been trained to chase cats and my two won't come near us now unless he is out of the way. Right now, I am keeping him out of the way at certain times of the day when it is their feeding time but the minute he sets eyes on them he is off and chasing. What makes me think he has been trained or allowed to do it is that whenever I make a certain, common noise, to call my cats, his ears prick up and he is up and looking for them. Any ideas on how to get him out of this would be appreciated.
My biggest problem now is that I fear he has been trained to chase cats and my two won't come near us now unless he is out of the way. Right now, I am keeping him out of the way at certain times of the day when it is their feeding time but the minute he sets eyes on them he is off and chasing. What makes me think he has been trained or allowed to do it is that whenever I make a certain, common noise, to call my cats, his ears prick up and he is up and looking for them. Any ideas on how to get him out of this would be appreciated.
Perhaps I should add that I have never had a problem keeping two bitches together, they have always gotten along very well, although I do usually have one that is older and one a few years or more younger. And perhaps dominance was a strong word to use but I call it how I see it - if a dog starts bullying another one into submission, is that not dominance of a kind? If a dog pushes another out of the way to get affection or pushes them off their food, is that not a kind of dominance? Perhaps instead of referring to my older bitch as the alpha, i should have called her the matriarch because that is what she is - the leader, the mother. The younger bitch has always looked to her for guidance and has always followed her lead - in everything. That said she has her own personality and I would expect the male to have his own personality but still fit in with the rest. He has a place in the family but i don't expect a new dog to waltz in and try to take over - he has to learn where he fits in and he has to earn it, not demand it.
- Messages
- 1,224
- Reaction score
- 320
- Points
- 83
Glad it is, as predicted, all settling down between the dogs.
A good way to train dogs and cats to co exist is as follows -
Place a cat in a cat carrier. Put the carrier very high up where the dog cannot reach it.
Bring the dog into the room and teach a "leave it" command by rewarding every time the dog takes his eyes off the cat carrier.
Once this has been learned, move the carrier slightly closer to the floor and repeat the training until the carrier is on the floor and you can, reliably, call the dog away.
Next choose a room that has some high shelves, stairs or furniture for the cat to retreat to. Release the cat into that room. Bring in the dog on lead. Go through all the above training again until you can, reliably, call the dog away from focusing on the cat.
Next, arrange the house so that the cat has an escape route to higher places out of the dog's reach. Release the cat and bring in the dog on lead while you continue to train a "leave" command. Be extremely generous with praise and high value rewards. You are looking for your dog to just look at you briefly to start with in order to get several high value rewards. As time goes on you can ask for more eye contact from him and then for him to move his body away.
Once this is going well you can use a house line that the dog can drag behind him giving your the option to stand on it with one foot if necessary.
When the dog is fairly cat proof in the house then move the training to the garden and start all over again with the cat carrier up high etc.
I have trained a cat killing greyhound using this method. They, eventually, lived in harmony together but this dog knew the difference between our cat and "other" cats so was never trusted around strange ones.
A good way to train dogs and cats to co exist is as follows -
Place a cat in a cat carrier. Put the carrier very high up where the dog cannot reach it.
Bring the dog into the room and teach a "leave it" command by rewarding every time the dog takes his eyes off the cat carrier.
Once this has been learned, move the carrier slightly closer to the floor and repeat the training until the carrier is on the floor and you can, reliably, call the dog away.
Next choose a room that has some high shelves, stairs or furniture for the cat to retreat to. Release the cat into that room. Bring in the dog on lead. Go through all the above training again until you can, reliably, call the dog away from focusing on the cat.
Next, arrange the house so that the cat has an escape route to higher places out of the dog's reach. Release the cat and bring in the dog on lead while you continue to train a "leave" command. Be extremely generous with praise and high value rewards. You are looking for your dog to just look at you briefly to start with in order to get several high value rewards. As time goes on you can ask for more eye contact from him and then for him to move his body away.
Once this is going well you can use a house line that the dog can drag behind him giving your the option to stand on it with one foot if necessary.
When the dog is fairly cat proof in the house then move the training to the garden and start all over again with the cat carrier up high etc.
I have trained a cat killing greyhound using this method. They, eventually, lived in harmony together but this dog knew the difference between our cat and "other" cats so was never trusted around strange ones.
That's really helpful Gypsysmum. I might try this when we next visit my grandchildren,. Our dog just cannot leave their Guinea pigs alone, she is completely obsessed with them. If in their cage she just sits in front of it staring at them, occasionally jumping up if they move too fast. If they are in their run on the grass she just lays by the side with eyes glued to them, they naturally are none too happy with this interest. The positive side, of course, is that it keeps her out of any mischief and we always know exactly where she is!!
- Messages
- 1,224
- Reaction score
- 320
- Points
- 83
Should work with Guinea Pigs too. Your only problem is that it is already an established, enjoyable, behaviour. This will make it harder to change and so may take quite a bit longer, especially as you have to have access to Guinea Pigs
- Messages
- 1,224
- Reaction score
- 320
- Points
- 83
Could always take up Guinea Pig boarding
- Messages
- 5,868
- Reaction score
- 5,485
- Points
- 113
There are people near us who do this - they call it Digs for PigsCould always take up Guinea Pig boarding
Gypsysmum2, can you tell me if there is any hope of introducing a cat to 2 dogs using this technique? Would the dogs need to be trained as individuals?
We always used to have a cat and planned to wait until we had no dogs left before getting another- my poor husband used to be a "cat person"- but there is no way I could cope without a dog.
We always used to have a cat and planned to wait until we had no dogs left before getting another- my poor husband used to be a "cat person"- but there is no way I could cope without a dog.
- Messages
- 1,791
- Reaction score
- 843
- Points
- 113
Actually, GM2, "Alpha dog" is nothing more than "Alpha wolf" with the species changed.
It's not in any way, shape, or form, 'a way to describe normal dog-to-dog interactions'. It's a direct transplant of a not merely inaccurate, but outright wrong, hypothesis of how wolves in a pack behave - fighting for status, incessant intimidation of rivals, etc; it's just been moved from wolves, their supposed "Ancestors", to modern-day dogs.
Schenkel's 1947 - L. David Mech
www.davemech.org/schenkel/
Schenkel's classic Wolf Behavior Study, available in English. Below you can ... This is the study that gave rise to the now outmoded notion of alpha wolves.
- wolves are distant cousins of dogs.
Modern-day wolves did not GIVE BIRTH TO dogs, nor did their forbears. A mutual ancestor gave rise to both dogs on one descendant lineage, & wolves on another... just like the shared ancestry of all primates, with humans branching off as several species. The only surviving human species is Homo sapiens, & we each carry on average 6 to 10% Neanderthal genes, another human species that died-out as a separate species, but with whom we interbred. // Per the mutation-rate of mDNA, mitochondrial DNA, wolves & dogs have been in separate gene-pools for an estimated 100K years, & we now have a 33K-YO dog skull from the Altay Mts of Siberia, Russia.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/22/us/from-wolf-to-dog-yes-but-when.html
The lack of dog fossils older than an average 15K was used as objection to the mDNA clock data, but fossils of any kind are extremely rare; we have enormous gaps in the human fossil record, & we are recent inventions, compared to many, many species that pre-date us.
- wolf behavior is wildly divergent from dog behavior in many ways.
Wolves make lousy pets; when puberty arrives, the puppy who tolerated human interference & loved attention has other things on her or his mind, & may very well react by biting the hand that feeds her/him when that hand prevents her/him from doing whatever s/he wants, right here & now. :huh: This certainly wouldn't be 'normal' behavior in a 6-MO domestic dog.
The studies on WILD wolves that overturned Schenkel / Alpha, Omega, & everything between, are many - here is one:
Alpha Status, Dominance, and Division of Labor in Wolf ... - CiteSeerX
citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid...?doi=10.1.1.547.9825...
by LD Mech - Cited by 274 - Related articles
wolf-pack social order as it occurs in nature, discuss the alpha concept and social .... been difficult to study in the wild (Mech 1974) and therefore information about the .... such packs remain unknown,
As for 'pecking order', that didn't even originate in mammal studies, but was swiped from 1920s studies of chickens - who DO NOT as was then thought, have a simplistic linear hierarchy where hen B is always subordinate to hen A, C to B, etc. Just like any other social species, there are branches, loops, & curlicues, with many exceptions, special cases, variations, & holiday rules that change the relative 'power' or ranking of any one hen vis-a-vis another.
For instance: a hen WITH chicks always gets extra points over a hen SANS chicks. Part of that may well be the simple factor of maternal aggro; hens who have infants to feed, tend, & defend have a strong instinct to get the best deal possible for their dependent chicks, & sally forth to do their daily struggle with some extra grit in their craws than the child-free hens.
Pecking order - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pecking_order
Pecking order or peck order is the colloquial term for the hierarchical system of social organisation. It was first described by Thorleif Schjelderup-Ebbe in 1921 under the German terms Hackordnung or Hackliste and introduced into English in 1927. The original use of pecking order referred to the expression of dominance in ... Studies of the genetic basis of pecking orders in chickens have indicated that ...
In short, neither 'Alpha' nor 'pecking order' is actually apropos to dogs in anything but sloppy casual conversation; certainly not when we are discussing how best to deal with social aggro between dogs who live in the same household... because in those fraught situations, where dogs & ppl can get hurt, U want to be accurate, factual, & concrete, IMO & IME.
- terry
Great name Joanne. Not sure I want to go as far as boarding them though Gypsysmum. One dog and one cat quite enough!There are people near us who do this - they call it Digs for Pigs
- Messages
- 1,224
- Reaction score
- 320
- Points
- 83
Dogmatize - yes you could use the same technique to introduce a new cat. A kitten would be easier because they do not run away and trigger the dog's chase instinct all the time.
Yes you would have to train each dog as an individual. The prey drive would be different in each of them. As I say I trained a cat killing greyhound using this method. The cat, as usual, became boss! I always had options available for the cat to get up out of the dog's reach.
Choose the cat carefully, too. The bolder the better I used to home board and had a cat, at that time, that challenged every dog that came on to the premises to dare to walk past him! He would position himself in all the walkways and swipe them as they went by! He had no fear of dogs whatsoever.
Yes you would have to train each dog as an individual. The prey drive would be different in each of them. As I say I trained a cat killing greyhound using this method. The cat, as usual, became boss! I always had options available for the cat to get up out of the dog's reach.
Choose the cat carefully, too. The bolder the better
I used to home board and had a cat, at that time, that challenged every dog that came on to the premises to dare to walk past him! He would position himself in all the walkways and swipe them as they went by! He had no fear of dogs whatsoever.I have been trying this and for the most part, he is beginning to calm down a little. The problem comes when the cat's hiss at him, which they do and then he goes berserk! i realize this is going to take some time to achieve and at the moment, the cats are being kept in the house. they are outdoor cats as a rule though, only really coming in when Winter strikes hard - their choice, they are not forced to stay out, its the way they prefer it. The cat carrier stresses them out and i have two cats and only one carrier! I was wondering if a dog cage would work - if i put a hide place for them in it and half or three-quarters covered the cage? It will be a real shame if they can't get on because my other two dogs are perfectly OK with them and vice versa
- Messages
- 1,224
- Reaction score
- 320
- Points
- 83
Yes, you as crate and cover it. The reason for using it is to give you control of the cat. It is no good training around a cat that is going to keep moving or hissing. All the dog needs is to know that the cat is around and still learn to respond to you . As with all training set the dog up to succeed every time. The more the dog succeeds in getting the reward the faster the training will progress.
- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 0
It is a familiar situation and the best thing to not do is just toss the three of them together. Like you mentioned taking them on long walks together allowing them to bond definitely helps. Break up any fights quickly and calmly, focusing on the pet who has a higher intensity of irritation though don't shout or yell at them to break it up. Though he isn't crate trained , keeping a dog crate handy in case he gets too eager around them may be an option, but approached with prudence Show them that you are the pack leader and it will avoid them looking at each other as competition. Socialization for the three of them is key to a well balanced relationship between the them.
I think I have been lucky with my dogs and cats. I have never separated them when briniging a new animal into the house. I just leave them to go about their business. Even bringing a new pup Cody into the fold the cats didn't have a problem with him. To the point where they all settle and sleep together at night.
So I think I am very lucky there. I also taught the cats to go into their carry boxes for when they go to the vets. No chasing around or scratches etc., I just open the door and in they go.
So I think I am very lucky there. I also taught the cats to go into their carry boxes for when they go to the vets. No chasing around or scratches etc., I just open the door and in they go.
Welcome to Dog Forum!
Join our vibrant online community dedicated to all things canine. Whether you're a seasoned owner or new to the world of dogs, our forum is your go-to hub for sharing stories, seeking advice, and connecting with fellow dog lovers. From training tips to health concerns, we cover it all. Register now and unleash the full potential of your dog-loving experience!
Login or Register