New Puppy, please help

[Lorraine & Poppy]

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Hi everyone, I have a 9 week old border collie who I love to bits but is driving me insane. Any advice would be welcome. When I try to exercise my puppy or if I give her a chew toy to sit with she always ends up getting over excited then she gets bity a bit obnoxious and then starts biting the walls, the table and other things. I am trying to train her not to bite and have success when she is not tired or over-stimulated.
For example this morning. I let her out for a pee, then played 5 mins of fetch and a gentle game of tug of war with drop, no real pulling on my end and she lost interest started eating the soil and then started darting around acting overcharged. It was not a rough or intense session. I took her inside to try some basic training to calm her and she was still very wound up and could not focus. It seems as though at least twice a day she is over-worked up and has the zoomies and I have to put her in time out. She can't just sit for 5 mins without wanting attention of some kind. I know I've made some mistakes but didn't think it would be this hard. Even when I give her praise she can get worked up and jumpy and bity. I'm starting to dread going downstairs to see her.

 

[JudyN]

Don't worry - she sounds absolutely normal. Puppies are very hard work, some more so than others! She's also very much a baby and will only have been with you for a few days. Everything is new and wonderfully stimulating for her. You're absolutely right that she gets overtired and can easily get overstimulated, and it's not easy to find the balance between enough stimulation and too much stimulation.

What do you do at the moment when she gets too worked up? Do you correct her, or ignore her? Also, what are you feeding her (brand and specific variety)?

 

[lurcherman]

Just the start of our crazy path of owning a puppy, be consistent and fair, a nice deep no voice will help when they overstep, it’s been over 20 years since I last had a pup, my last two was 5 months and 6 months old when I got them so I missed the loopy stage but had to play catch up on my kind of training which was mainly not to hard, every time a pup plays up I just stuck the lead on and gave her 5 minutes to pee and smell , break the pattern is what I did,

 

[Lorraine & Poppy]

Don't worry - she sounds absolutely normal. Puppies are very hard work, some more so than others! She's also very much a baby and will only have been with you for a few days. Everything is new and wonderfully stimulating for her. You're absolutely right that she gets overtired and can easily get overstimulated, and it's not easy to find the balance between enough stimulation and too much stimulation.

What do you do at the moment when she gets too worked up? Do you correct her, or ignore her? Also, what are you feeding her (brand and specific variety)?

Thank you for your reply. It depends how worked up she is, if it's just starting with excess biting and lunging I get up and leave the room but she started to do her own thing and biting the furniture. If it's really bad or near nap time, we put her in a timeout in a playpen for 5 mins to calm her before going in her crate. Today I brought her inside and tried to calm her with her food, puzzle game or scatter the treats so she has to find them. I don't really know how to correct her I am never sure what to do or say, do I say No, or not. I am feeding her James Wellbeloved Fish and Rice.

 

[Lorraine & Poppy]

Just the start of our crazy path of owning a puppy, be consistent and fair, a nice deep no voice will help when they overstep, it’s been over 20 years since I last had a pup, my last two was 5 months and 6 months old when I got them so I missed the loopy stage but had to play catch up on my kind of training which was mainly not to hard, every time a pup plays up I just stuck the lead on and gave her 5 minutes to pee and smell , break the pattern is what I did,

Thank you, I will give it a go. I have to say I am not enjoying it at the moment but I am sure we will get there. She seems to have so many bad habits, again my fault, but she just needs training and consistency.

 

[JoanneF]

do I say No, or not.

”no” is just a sound to a dog -.apart from the fact you could just say ”bananas” there are two other problems. First, at any given time, your dog is doing a multitude of things - the behaviour you don't want but also looking, listening, sniffing, playing, reflecting, planning etc and he doesn't know which thing the ”no” refers to. Second, it doesn't tell him what you do want instead.

A negative concept is actually quite difficult for the brain. If I told you not to think of a green and pink striped elephant, what's the first thing that comes to mind? So, rather than tell him no, try to swap the unwanted behaviour with a different and incompatible one. For example, jumping up? Ask for a sit - he can't do both.

There are three main reasons in my view why a dog doesn't comply with what we ask.

First, he doesn't understand. That's where training comes in, you need to teach him what you want, and reward when he gets it right so he knows he has done the right thing.

Second, the motivation or reward of doing what he is already doing is higher than the motivation or reward of doing what you are asking. This is why some dogs won't, for example, recall when they are playing or chasing squirrels. So make sure what you offer is of far higher value - or, if you can't beat something like a squirrel chase, don't allow the opportunity for it to happen (i.e. don't set him up to fail). Use a leash or a long line to keep control.

Third, you are working against a deeply rooted breed trait that the dog has been selectively bred for over centuries. There is a reason why we don't use terriers to herd sheep - it can be done but it is a lot harder.

Your collie is a smart and inherently biddable breed. Put the work in, and it will pay dividends.

For tips on training, I'm a big fan of Kikopup on YouTube for excellent short videos on everything from basic manners to cool tricks.

 

[JudyN]

I doubt it's your fault at all - I'm guessing you've had her about a week? You've not had her long enough for her to be any other than what her genes are telling her to be! And it's OK to not enjoy this stage, any more than a new parent would enjoy a baby who cries all night and most of the day.

I wouldn't correct her at all, any more than you'd correct a baby for crying. 'No' is too general a word, and often meaningless for dogs. It doesn't tell her what she should do. If you can calm her with puzzle games, even just for a minute or two, that's fantastic - keep it up. If she settles when you put her in a playpen, that's good too. I'd maybe use the playpen more, but give her stuff to do in it, such as cardboard to shred, or a carrot, or a Kong stuffed with wetted kibble and frozen - that's better than destroying the furniture!

For actual biting - keep doing the timeout, but I would only leave her there for, say, 10 seconds. You could use the playpen or crate, or just leave the room yourself, but you don't want her to see it as punishment, and you don't want her to associate her crate or playpen with anything negative. The message is 'when teeth touch skin, the fun stops'. No need to say anything - the calmer you can be the better. Once the time is up, let her out and carry on what you were doing. If she goes straight in with her teeth again, put her back in timeout. You need to be 100% consistent, even if it means you spend an hour putting her in timeout 30 times... but the message will get through in the end.

This video might help, but remember that she still is very young and hasn't developed self-control yet so work at her pace:

Similarly, to help her develop self-control:

I used that approach as a basis for teaching tricks like moving carpet tiles from one end of the kitchen to the other, getting my dog to move from one tile to the next at a time till he got to a treat at the far end of the kitchen. Given your pup's breed, she's going to be smart so something like this will exercise her brain as well as teach self-control - but again, go at her pace.

Oh, and I nearly forgot - two vital training aids for the early days are chocolate and gin - for you of course, not the dog!

 

[Eva1]

Hi everyone, I have a 9 week old border collie who I love to bits but is driving me insane. Any advice would be welcome. When I try to exercise my puppy or if I give her a chew toy to sit with she always ends up getting over excited then she gets bity a bit obnoxious and then starts biting the walls, the table and other things. I am trying to train her not to bite and have success when she is not tired or over-stimulated.
For example this morning. I let her out for a pee, then played 5 mins of fetch and a gentle game of tug of war with drop, no real pulling on my end and she lost interest started eating the soil and then started darting around acting overcharged. It was not a rough or intense session. I took her inside to try some basic training to calm her and she was still very wound up and could not focus. It seems as though at least twice a day she is over-worked up and has the zoomies and I have to put her in time out. She can't just sit for 5 mins without wanting attention of some kind. I know I've made some mistakes but didn't think it would be this hard. Even when I give her praise she can get worked up and jumpy and bity. I'm starting to dread going downstairs to see her.

I’ve also got a puppy border collie who is now coming up for 14 weeks old. I posted a thread with a very similar situation. Everything you’ve described in your post sounds just like my pup Cleo. I’ve found when she’s having her crazy zoomie moments (which are usually at night) that’s when she gets mouthy on us the most trying to play bite etc, that we just pop her in her crate and she falls asleep almost immediately so for us I feel she can be over tired that she doesn’t know what to do with herself that trying to bite us is her way of playing.

Another thing we do is walk away and ignore her when she’s bity and we walk away and do something else. Also we just get on with our day after we’ve had playtime and she normally just takes herself off and plays with a chew toy on her own.

I also think sometimes it can be overstimulation, when I play with Cleo in the garden with her ball and toys for ages she sometimes then just randomly goes for my ankles and bites them lol.

I’m lucky to be in a puppy group chat with the other pups from cleos litters, new parents. We all just post updates off them all and good to see how Cleos siblings are growing. But they all act the very same so it’s just part of having a puppy. I also forget how young Cleo is and think is this normal behaviour? And I think it is. I just try to limit the bity/mental behaviour as much as I can.

My post seems a bit all over the place but just know your not the only one experiencing this behaviour my collie is the exact same

 

[lurcherman]

Haha I’m sorry but In over 35 years of owning dogs and may I say never had a problem, a bit of chewing which was easily stopped, as I don’t come on hear and say help me please, jo and Judy, I don’t watch these new training vids and don’t normally read books on bringing up a dog, you know why? Because what I’m doing is old school and has worked, it’s just common sence owning a dog, the NO word used right is a word that works with consistency and at the right time so I’m sorry I think I don’t agree with you pair, we seem nowadays to have so many troubled dogs and if that’s the new way then I think I will continue to be old school using tried and tested training, also I don’t find training hard just simple common sence,, or over the last 35 years it could just be total luck or a fluke!!! You work it out, all I can do is tell the story from inside my life with dogs, all this softly softly approach has made some dogs screwed up in the head, but that’s only my opinion., but if your also getting consistent results then it’s a win win isn’t it.

 

[JoanneF]

Using ”no” can certainly interrupt a behaviour,we are not saying let the dog carry on with behaviours we don't like, we are just saying there are ways of being clearer about what we want. If you can think back to, say, when you were learning to drive (and I realise it would be a long time ago ... ) if your instructor had suddenly said ”no” to you, you'd be wondering if you were going too fast, too close to the kerb, in the wrong lane, hadn't checked your mirror, in the wrong gear, going down a one way street, going through a red light, hadn't indicated. You might guess you'd done something wrong but not sure what. We are just applying the same principles to dog training.

 

[Finsky]

I don't see there being anything wrong 'NO' word being used...it is just a word just any other. It is how it is being used that matters and in what context. With right timing and how it is delivered, yes...all those can explain the dog what we expect from it. Dog will learn what is allowed and what is not.
I use 'no' with my dogs..always have done but I don't shout it.
I deliver my 'no' with certain tone of voice and probably just using the tone on its own would be enough to indicate they are on a 'wrong track' with their behaviour.
If I use 'no' it is to let mine know that they are on 'dangerous waters' with me...before that I use different commands and if they are ignored or not fully reacted to, then they will get the final 'no' that will bring implications to their behaviour as well. But they've soon learned to be aware of it and the girls being now 1 & 2 yrs old, they both know how to behave (most of the time anyway). But they are young and lively terriers so occasionally the moment steal their attention and lure them to their 'terrier ways'.
Some people are naturally more confident dog owners and get the understanding between them their pets working well even without any outside help. But not everybody are like that that's why these dog forums, books and videos come handy. It is another matter if they are able draw the right information and get it to work in practise but at least they have some starting point get on with it. There is no points to be scored how we make it to work as long as we manage to be happy with our dog friends and make happy dog as well.
There has always been people that are bonkers...and bonkers people with dogs...and bonkers people with bonkers dogs....and non-bonkers people with bonkers dogs. What has changed is that we get to hear and virtually meet more people and their dogs than we would without the internet.....nothing is new.

 

[JudyN]

Jasper showed pretty much no response to 'No' until he was well over a year old, and believe me, I was driven to it at times! Even if the dog does understand what it means (which isn't at all a given), dogs don't come programmed to think that you not wanting them to do something is a good reason to not do it - teaching them that doing what we ask is actually a good idea is a very important part of training, and you shouldn't expect them to think 'Because I say so' is a good reason on its own.

I also believe that it's very easy to miss how sensitive a high-energy, impulsive puppy can be. There are sighthounds who can get upset if you just raise an eyebrow at them, but a new puppy owner may well not notice if being told 'no' firmly is stressing the pup, making it even more overstimulated.

With Jasper, if I took Finsky's approach, say when he was reluctant to get off the sofa, the sterner I got, the more stubborn and the more likely to retaliate. Reward-based training and happy voice has always been key with him.

But dogs differ - I'm sure 'No' is a useful and effective tool for some dogs, but it's arguable whether it's ever the best tool. The conflicting advice on the internet can be really confusing for new owners, but we need to remember that most dogs end up being happy, well balanced, and as obedient as they need to be - and that people managed before the days of the internet, even if they never read a book on dog training.

 

[Finsky]

J
With Jasper, if I took Finsky's approach, say when he was reluctant to get off the sofa, the sterner I got, the more stubborn and the more likely to retaliate. Reward-based training and happy voice has always been key with him.

But dogs differ - I'm sure 'No' is a useful and effective tool for some dogs, but it's arguable whether it's ever the best tool. The conflicting advice on the internet can be really confusing for new owners, but we need to remember that most dogs end up being happy, well balanced, and as obedient as they need to be - and that people managed before the days of the internet, even if they never read a book on dog training.

Yes they do differ and each one of mine need slightly different approach as well. They are generally obedient dogs but on a bad day/certain situations one is more 'cloth eared' (or should I say with 'selective hearing') than other when it comes to instructions. And the younger one with her teenage stage is little more delicate flower at the moment and will have to handled accordingly or she can get bit nervous.
Now that the boisterous puppy stage is over and done with...'no' is not used very often at all, the effect of it would loose its strength if it would be on regular use. Sharp 'no' is almost like a 'emergency' word how I treat it...dogs will almost freeze when it is being said and in a emergency situation it will come handy.
Usually I just give a look and make 'ah-a' noise and they know they are not supposed to carry on with what they are up to....it is the '1st warning' and it is usually all that is needed to get their attention. Any instructions are given differently, particularly if it is something new...teaching is never just about yes/no.
Same corrections works well with both, 'first warning' and all that, for the hubby and the dogs....

 

[lurcherman]

Oh Joanne the driving instructor that I had was a complete mental hard case laugh a minute hard to read person haha , memories,, but hey guess what he got me passed first time so whatever his tactics he got the job done and he was quite hard,, I’m not saying I’m ultra hard but I’m not soft either, read the dog then apply what you think is needed,

 

[JoanneF]

Oh Joanne the driving instructor that I had was a complete mental hard case

Did I ever mention my dad was a driving instructor in Fife in the 60s ...

 

[lurcherman]

Really jo, easy days back then, no traffic no hassle hehe, this make you laugh my instructor left the job a year later to train to be a policeman haha, I think if he got in then he’d have them jumping through hoops.

 

[merlina]

A nine week old puppy is an intense spark of life. I've never been bothered about how full-on my puppies have been...I had a working spaniel pup that makes yours sound almost calm! Just embrace the chaos. A BC is usually high up the intelligence scale and this amazing neural system has only recently been switched on- and is receiving like mad. Sounds absolutely normal. IMO it's quite early for training. Ignore, distract and enjoy- and sometimes endure the biting! Soon middle age comes around because dogs lives are so short and their development whizzes by. Lots of evenings I'd love a few hours of puppy madness.

 

[Rinkydinkydo]

I'm like @lurcherman .... old skool when it comes to training dogs. Only dogs I've ever had have been lurchers & Terriers. I don't even think about it when I get a pup really,but it starts from day one when I get a pup. I do use the word no which covers different situations,my dogs don't seem to have a problem learning.

 

[Tinytom]

We have always had lurchers and terriers too and the ones we have had from pups have been easily trained but we have always had multiple dogs when we have had a pup which I think makes alot of difference