Over protective and aggressive bitch

[chattymitchie]

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Hi, I'm totally new to this forum but am looking for help with our 2 1/2 year old Weimarana bitch. She's generally very obedient, and an exceptionally brilliant family dog. We spent a long time socialising her, and taking her to puppy classes etc and we never had a problem. She's intelligent and does what she's told, and she's a soppy, kind dog at home.

However, since she turned 2, she has been more aggressive to other dogs and men. We have always made it clear that we're not happy with her being aggressive, and although she's never actually bitten and hurt anything, we're worried that she may.  We've tried a beep collar, and all sorts of other aids and whilst it works whilst she's wearing it, the minute she isn't she reverts back to the aggressive behaviour. She jumps up at men in a threatening way and butts her head into them. With dogs, she will put them on the floor, pretends to bite, growls and is very dominant.

However, she seems totally confused, she thinks she's doing the right thing, but when we try to stop her she knows she's done wrong and tries to slink away. 

I want to understand what is going on in her head so that we can tackle this in the right way.

If anyone has any pointers, or knows a good book or resource we could follow to try and resolve this that would be great.

Thank you for reading this!

 

[JoanneF]

Our behaviour guru, Gipsysmum,  will probably explain better but a beep collar (or shock or spray collar) may well be reinforcing her belief that an approaching dog or stranger precedes something unpleasant. So she may be trying to see off the perceived threat before it gets too close. You may have reinforced her unwanted behaviour I'm afraid.

Dogs like yours will have an invisible radius of space around her where she feels secure . Find out what that is and keep her far enough away from her perceived threat (dogs and people) that she is relaxed. Reward her calm behaviour. Gradually, over weeks and months, not days, work on reducing the distance. But - be aware that if your dog has had a stressful episode the stress hormone can stay in the body for up to 48 hours so a distance she was comfortable with the day before might be too close that day. So the safe distance can change, watch her body language.

In the UK we have two well established behaviour organisations, COAPE and the APBC (beware of others, the industry is unregulated which means anyone can call themselves a behaviourist). You might benefit from help; your insurance may cover this.

 

[chattymitchie]

Thank you JoanneF, that's really interesting I hadn't thought of it like that before. And I will definitely check tomorrow whether her insurance will cover her for some behavioural help.

Weirdly, she seems calmer and friendlier when she's wearing the collar - she just wanders around wagging her tail - whether that's at the park with lots of other dogs or in a place with strange people.

We're a bit at a loss, but definitely want to resolve the situation and are prepared to do whatever is needed.

 

[JoanneF]

The tail wagging is interesting - upright wide wags, low twitchy wags, or something else?

 

[chattymitchie]

Just friendly tail wagging. Not at all aggressive, when we go down to the park and she has her collar on she just wanders around minding her own business, and just sniffs a bit at dogs when they pass - but still wagging tail in a friendly way. We're totally at a loss as to what to do. It's almost like when she knows she can't/doesn't need to be aggressive she just relaxes.

 

[JoanneF]

Obviously without seeing her it's really hard to say. It could even be that YOU are more relaxed when she has the collar on, so that transfers to her behaviour. But a good behaviourist would observe you with her and work with you accordingly. Please use someone who uses only positive, reward based methods, your girl is already too stressy for anyone who uses force or aversion. The two organisations mentioned above are the UK 'gold standard' ones.

 

[chattymitchie]

Thank you Joanne, I was hoping that someone would say to use rewards rather than force - I don't think she means to be disobedient. She seems confused and trying to be protective rather than just being aggressive and picking a fight - partly because she's never actually fought or bitten a dog - she just scares them away. I will 100% now see if I can find someone registered with the COAPE or APBC to help us with her. Thank you for your help. 

 

[leashedForLife]

I noticed she's a Weimaraner -  as a breed, they are very prone to separation anxiety, & other anxiety-based issues.   Lick granulomas [licking habitually until they damage their own skin], over-grooming / nibbling bald spots in their coats, pacing & other OCD-behaviors, etc. // Weims suffered a genetic bottleneck during WW-2, & the surviving dogs in the breed are fairly inbred as a result of the gene-pool shrinking so catastrophically, in just a decade.
Does she get upset when solo? - refuse to eat a stuffed Kong left with her until after someone comes home, attempts to escape & follow the departing person, & so on?

Do the dogs she is reactive toward have any similar traits? - prick ears, ring tails, body shapes, same sex, _____ ?
Are they mostly bigger, mostly her size, or mostly smaller?
Do they tend to be barky dogs, & she rushes at them when they bark at sight of her?
Anything that helps define what triggers her reaction can help, in modifying it - Ex, she mostly lunges at / mouths black MALE dogs, her size or bigger.
Great!  -- now, we make large black M dogs predict every good thing in her life: meals [in the car, spot a black dog? - Pull over, park, feed 1/4 of her breakfast],  walks [a big black dog goes past the house? - put her leash on, & walk along behind them, separated by however far U need to be so that neither she nor the dog ahead are bothered, but both are aware of the other's presence]... etc, etc.

Definitely agree a behaviorist is needed. // Avoid any suggestions to "face her fears" - to flood her, overface her with stimuli that U know are upsetting to her; or to "show her who's boss"  - to pin the dog down, EAT 1st, EXIT 1st, & all that other silly "pack leader" hooey; or to physically punish her with something unpleasant when she reacts / aggresses - punishment includes anything she doesn't like, ADDED to the situation. Leash jerks, scolding, a smack on the bum, lecturing the dog angrily on a tight leash while U rant in her face, etc. -- Emotional discomfort is just as damaging to dog + human relations as physical pain, IME.

Safe forms of punishment remove things she likes - called 'negative punishment' because it deducts something [negative in the maths sense] to punish, i-e, reduce the prior behavior. A good example is one often used to dissuade dogs from jumping-up to greet: they want attn. // They jump? - leave the room. Zero attention. / Come back immediately - they jump up? - Leave. // Repeat ad infinitum until the penny drops, & the dog realizes JUMPING UP MAKES THE HUMAN GO AWAY! -- Aha! Light dawns.   :cheers:
The trick is, U need to know what the dog wants, to choose an effective "thing the dog wants" to deduct.

OTC calmatives [Adaptil pump-spray; 4 to 6 drops of Bach 'Rescue Remedy' on a treat to be swallowed in one bite; a snug super-stretchy T-shirt with 10% Lycra...] are also safe, have no side-effects, & can be very helpful in getting her to relax so that she can learn new emotional responses to her triggers.
- Terry

 

[JoanneF]

I don't think negative punishment would be of any help whatsoever for this dog's issues, adding information about it just muddies the water and creates confusion.

 

[leashedForLife]

@JoanneF - 
I included info on Neg-P for the simple reason that many trainers will insist [inaccurately] that "I never punish a dog!" - when in fact, they do, altho they do not do it often, & they may not use punitive AKA aversive tools.  Easily recognized aversives include choke-chains, infinite slip nylon tube collars which are easily closed to shut-off a dog's airway, prong collars which poke, & shock collars, which, duh!, apply electric shock to the skin.

Most dog-owners are perfectly capable of recognizing an aversive collar; they may be less able to recognize other  common aversives which startle, rather than 'hurt' - throw chains, rattle cans, air-horns, water balloons, etc.

Negative punishment was NOT suggested as a "cure" for the dog, but is meant to help the owner tell the difference between humane training using science, & traditional training using post-facto applied punishment  - aversives used after the "wrong" behavior, to reduce the likelihood of the dog doing it in future.

Neg-P has the same intention, but a very different way of reaching the goal.   I think owners need to know about it; it's neither complex nor impossible for pet-owners to use, IME.  I've taught children as young as 8-YO [girls - the youngest boy ever was 10] to train their family's dog, on their own, under supervision. If a kid under double-digits can do it, I think the average adult can, too.
- terry
 

 

[JoanneF]

Sometimes less is more Leashedforlife.

 

[leashedForLife]

And p'raps nothing would be best of all, eh?  

Everyone chooses how much or how little to read, as they wish. // Dog-owners are IME just as capable of learning as dogs.  While i don't drown dog-owners in jargon, they do need some fundamentals, which - again, IME - requires *some* terminology.
No everyday expression will convey the concept, "take something the learner enjoys away, so that s/he is less likely to repeat an unwanted behavior..." CONCISELY.   Every owner needs to be a trainer - for basic manners, to socialize & habituate, & to teach basic cued behaviors.  Like driving a car or balancing one's checkbook, there's a vocabulary.

 

[gypsysmum2]

I agree with JoanneF. This looks like a complex behaviour problem. When she is wearing the collar she may be in "shut down" and not able to behave normally. This, long term, is not good. Any aversive therapy almost always causes long term problems, even if short term gains are seen.

Tail wagging can be defensive and can, also, mean the dog is stressed. Neither of these emotions is conducive to learning. In order to learn a dog has be in a non anxious state. Anxiety prevents learning.

Is her aggression associated with her being on lead? I notice that she "wanders around" the park without showing aggression and so assume she is off lead? It may be that she has "learned" that wandering around waving her tail is the only way to stop the beep collar going off. Most dogs never make the connection we want them to make. They just find a way of avoiding the stress of the "beep". 

Totally agree with JoanneF about contacting someone from COAPE or APBC. They will require a vet referral. If your dog has been seen recently, most vets will refer without needing to see her again. If she has not been seen for a while then a vet check to rule out any hidden pain or other issues might be wise anyway.

Good luck with your journey using behavioural help. Most people comment that the best bit of a behaviour consultation is the understanding of dog behaviour that they gain. Do keep us posted.

Dogs Today magazine has a top behaviourist, Prof. Peter Neville, writing a true life account of dogs he has treated each month. Fascinating stuff

A good book is called "Think Dog" by John Fisher. It has recently been updated so do get the new version. It is available for Kindle readers.

 

[leashedForLife]

@chattymitchie -
could U describe her wagging any more precisely? - Does she have a full-length tail, or a docked stub? Docked tails are harder for other dogs to see & 'read', they can contribute to social problems by confusing the messages that she wants to send.

Is her tail held:
A, level with her back thru its whole length,
B, tail held RAISED 45' or more from spine level,
or  C, tail held LOWER than her spine?

A level tail is neither aggro nor appeasing; a raised tail indicates arousal - it can be simple excitement, or convey a possible threat; a lowered tail is appeasing or signals anxiety, & a tail that curls under the dog's belly may be extreme fear, or extremely appeasing.

The width of her wags, & the speed, are also communicative - w-i-d-e wags from side to side, level with the spine or a bit higher, are relaxed & friendly signals.
* A slow stiff wag, with a near-vertical tail, is a definite warning - M dogs will exchange such wags when there might be a serious fight.
* Rapid narrow wags with the tip or lower-3rd of a lowered tail are very appeasing; pups often wag this way when they meet an adult dog other than their mum, or meet a human stranger while still quite young. / Shy dogs may continue these appeasing puppy-wags thru-out their lives, when they meet anyone they don't know [human or k9].

Are her hackles raised while she wags?  // What's her ear position? - forward with an interested look, sideways with an uncertain look, or pinched close to her head?

A dog's whole body is used in communication, & all these details - tail angle, wag width & speed, ear position, body posture, head set - are the various modifiers that make for greater clarity. // I can find photos or videos, if they would help illustrate the variations?
- terry

 

[JoanneF]

You missed my point, LFL. This isn't about the pros and cons of the different quadrants of operant conditioning, this is about this dog in this situation. And negative punishment for this dog in this situation wouldn't be helpful. That's all.

 

[leashedForLife]

Huh? - 
I wasn't suggesting neg-P be used to reduce the aggression.  :huh:   I was pointing out, that it can be hard for APOs / Average Pet-Owners to understand that not all "punishment" involves the use of aversive tools, or the use of coercive methods.

It's pretty easy to see a choke-chain or prong-collar -- assuming of course, that the trainer or owner has not put one of the nifty new "slipcases" over that prong-collar, to hide its very existence & deny its function.   //  It's also pretty easy to see a handler use intimidation, brute force, confrontation, etc.  // It's a little harder to see, recognize, & understand neg-P in use, as there are no training-aids designed to deliver pain, there's no macho confrontation,  no coercion.  Neg-P works by SUBTRACTING something the dog feels is delightful, & highly desirable: something s/he would gladly work to earn, given the opportunity.

Besides which, @chattymitchie  can learn to use negative-punishment in any other apropos situation - such as the aforementioned "jumping to greet", or perhaps barking in excitement when the family returns home, or barking when the phone rings [some dogs learn that barking takes attn away from a phone convo, & onto oneself - it's quite effective].  The thread is concerned with a specific unwanted behavior - we've all suggested that Chatty find a behaviorist to help with B-Mod, & behaviorists use both positive reinforcement and  negative punishment.  

I'll add there's an excellent book available -  'Click to Calm' , written specifically to help owners of reactive dogs; it doesn't matter if the reactivity is based in aggression, hyper-arousal, fear, anger, defensive... whatever the root cause. Amazon carries it; used copies are often available.
 - terry

Terry Pride, certified Vet's Assistant; member Truly Dog-Friendly
'dogs R dogs, wolves R wolves, & primates R us.' -- (™ 2007)

 

[leashedForLife]

... and before anyone says "a book is dangerous", this particular book, 'Click to Calm', contains nothing that would contradict or worry a behaviorist.
To the contrary - it suggests & describes only classical DS/CC, DeSensitize & Counter-Condition, an exceedingly safe & very straightforward process.

I've helped past clients who had extremely-aggressive dogs, but who simply could not afford extended one-to-one B-Mod for their dogs; they met me once or twice, I wrote a very clear & detailed evaluation, also separately a custom plan for B-Mod of their dog's behavior, & they used Click to Calm in combination with e-mail or phone-calls for problems along the way.  // 2 of those dogs had already been declared legally dangerous; their next stop would have been euthanasia at the vet's.  Thankfully, i am happy to report that all the dogs, including the court-designated dangerous pair, improved enormously & were once more able to go off the owner's property, on leash.  They would never be social butterflies, but they were now manageable, civil, & comfortable in public.

 - terry