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The only one thing I would like to add....somebody mentioned that those half-baked litters -bred by non showing/racing people- are only about money.

How can they get money if they could not place the dogs they bred?

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These people do cut corners, often feed their dogs only very cheap food, may not use good quality worming products, may not vaccinate. I doubt if they do such things as pre-mating swabs, post parturition examinations, pay vet to remove dew claws etc.

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I don't pay a vet to remove dewclaws...I remove my own! :b

I certainly do not like what has happened in a lot of the breeds. I think the Alsatian, which we call the German Shepherd, is changed for the worse by the show ring fads and trends. They are nightmarish to watch go and come and are walking on their knees. I also miss the type of Pembroke Corgi I remember from the 60's and 70's, which was a lighter, foxier-headed dog with a little more daylight under them.

OTOH, I was just thinking while looking back at the Whippetview scrapbook linked to by Dawn on the other thread that our breed today looks to my eye much more appealing and LESS extreme than it did decades ago. Gone are the extreme roached backs, pointy noses, spindly-looking legs of many of even the great dogs of the past. I think the modern Whippet is a fine, sporty, appealing dog with broader appeal. Now, if someone wants a 17" or under 20lb Whippet, the only place I know to get that would be from a WCRA breeder who breeds those weight classes, and certainly no place over here, but I don't think that the Whippet breeders have made the breed too extreme or unfunctional looking.

Seraphina, your Irish Setter photo is REALLY interesting. I would not have recognized that as an Irish Setter, but it probably looks much like our field trial bred Irish Setters do...it's just I seldom see one. I think our show Irish Setters in the US are even more extreme. The show/field split here is wide as the ocean where most of our gun dog breeds are concerned.

 

[Juley]

I've been reading this/these thread(s) with interest - Although only 7 months old I've been debating whether or not to have a litter from Bluebell when she's about 3 - I'd love her daughter - but that's obviously not guaranteed - and Whippets seem to be able to have such big litters - if she could just produce one little perfect girl I'd go for it!!
So this thread has just about persuaded me not to have a litter ever - but buy her a companion in a few years time - so next question is do I go for another Whippet :wub: ...an Iggie :wub: ...an Iggie/whippet :wub: ...or a Beddie/Whippet :wub: ...

They're all so flipping lovely - that's the problem  :lol:

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If you are happy with Bluebell, why not go back to her breeder and book another puppy when you are ready. You should then get something from similar lines and have a good idea what you will be getting. I had three people ( out of five puppies placed) who wanted a second from me when I bred my first litter. It was lovely to have those homes ready and waiting.

 

[Seraphina]

I don't pay a vet to remove dewclaws...I remove my own! :b

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If I dared I would do my own as well . I rather pay my vet, who does such a good job, and it is such a tiny fraction of my overall costs.

I certainly do not like what has happened in a lot of the breeds. I think the Alsatian, which we call the German Shepherd, is changed for the worse by the show ring fads and trends. They are nightmarish to watch go and come and are walking on their knees.  I also miss the type of Pembroke Corgi I remember from the 60's and 70's, which was a lighter, foxier-headed dog with a little more daylight under them.

Fortunately, some breeds have managed to reverse the trends bit, I think that Irish setters actually do look bit better than they did just few years ago. They seem to have bit more substance again. Hopefully, breeders of other breeds may also reconsider what they are doing.

OTOH, I was just thinking while looking back at the Whippetview scrapbook linked to by Dawn on the other thread that our breed today looks to my eye much more appealing and LESS extreme than it did decades ago.  Gone are the extreme roached backs, pointy noses, spindly-looking legs of many of even the great dogs of the past. I think the modern Whippet is a fine, sporty, appealing dog with broader appeal.

I wonder if the extreme roached backs were really as extreme or if the dogs were set up like that for a photo? I have never seen one like that in person and i always wondered if people pull their dogs like that to show off their dogs' tuck up believing that more is better. Or was it, together with spindly legs, the legacy of some Italian Greyhound introduced into the breed in the past?

I don't think that the Whippet breeders have made the breed too extreme or unfunctional looking.

Some are getting bit heavy, with chests too wide, legs too short for my liking They are on the verge loosing the elegance that I consider imperative. They do not look to me as being fast and nimble. But of-course, that is my own preference . Then again if the only 2 dogs I had to chose from was one bit on heavy side but with lovely conformation and one just right but bad conformation, I use the one with good conformation anytime.

You are right Whippets are not in any danger of being so extreme it would threaten their health, as is the case with so many other exaggerated breeds.

 

[Avalonia]

bones.
So many breeds became so polished  that they are almost unrecognizable from those bred only 50 years ago.

This was my Irish Setter born about 1962, he was a typical example of his breed, and trained to work in the field

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My heart fills with longing when I see this dog. As I noted earlier, my grandfather bred, for field, Irish Setters trained to gun, for 70 years. They were magnificent dogs and as a child I always felt regal walking with his pack. His last litter was the year he turned 87 -- he was in excellent health, then about six weeks after the litter was born he got up one morning and began to put on his shoes, and toppled over with a massive heart attack. I took the pick bitch from that last litter he bred, with the hope of continuing his line. As he went into his 80s he decided to breed a litter only every three or four years and so, when he decided, at 87 to breed, without a male left he wanted to use, he imported a very lovely dog (Finnegan) from Ireland and bred him to his last great bitch. Sadly -- and I am glad my grandfather did not live to see it -- that Irish import managed to pass on epilepsy, and my lovely Shelagh had to be spayed when she was diagnosed. In all his years breeding within his own line my grandfather never once had the problem. Spaying Shelagh changed my focus from continuing my grandfather's legacy -- there was nothing left to breed from -- and so it moved to whippets. Shelagh lived to be 14 and I still have an Irish Setter and I always will, and my Irish Setter will, always, be a field dog first and foremost (though my current girl, Irish Lace is also a show champion). Lace is 14 and still in good health but I know she cannot go on forever, so I am now searching America, and Canada for the one Irish Setter I will always own, in reverence to my grandfather who so loved them.

A short but funny story. When we rescued a young whippet bitch with a china blue eye who was going to be euthanized for that fact, and brought her home, our Shelagh adopted her. Shelagh was by then about two and Laura was 8 weeks and the bonded and did everything together. They were lifelong best friends, and so as we trained Shelagh for field Laura was alongside her, learning how to point and flush birds and stand for the gun. When we took Shelagh for her final test for her field championship we brought Laura with her because the two dogs had worked so long together and they allowed us, as part of the trial, to permit Laura to go into the field with Shelagh. The two worked as a perfect team and all the judges at the trial were stunned because they had never seen a whippet work a field, point, flush and retrieve, as perfectly as a well trained gundog. After the trial was complete, and Shelagh finished her field championship, the judges told us that were we to want to trial our whippet they were certain she too would finish because she was perfection in the field.

Shelagh lived to be 14 and I have her photo and a lock of her hair enclosed on my bedroom wall, and beside her is a photo of our Laura, who survived her best friend and lived to be nearly 16. I look at their photos and remember with great fondness when they, and I, were young, and the world was an adventure in front of us.

Lanny

 

[seaspot_run]

I wonder if the extreme roached backs were really as extreme or if the dogs were set up like that for a photo?  I have never seen one like that in person and i always wondered if people pull their dogs like that to show off their dogs' tuck up believing that more  is better.  Or was it, together with spindly legs, the legacy of some Italian Greyhound introduced into the breed in the past? 

I saw some like that back in the day and even had a few "throwbacks" to that style in some of my earlier litters.

I can't FORCE any of my current dogs to stand like that.

And the hind ends completely lacking in muscle tone are certainly not something I see much of now. There is a dog in some of those retrospectives who is in a few of my pedigrees--Ch. Roanbar Son of Catchalong...he won very well when he was imported from the UK, sired a really top-producing bitch (Ch. Unmitigated Gallway--one of the all-time best names ever in Whippets) and is therefore in pedigrees today. However, you don't see anything that looks like that down from him now, but when I bred to his great-grandson, I got a few who were very extreme in outline. But since our aesthetic had changed since the 60's, I petted those out and now I don't get much that is throwback to that style of dog who is behind my own.

I'm not wanting to disparage the record or importance of such dogs. They are the foundations of our modern breed, but it's pretty obvious people looked at those dogs and thought they could be improved on, and so the breed is different now. Could Eng. Ch. Robmaywin Stargazer of Allways or Eng.Ch. Wingedfoot Wild Goose win 3 CC's today? I don't think so. They were important dogs and we respect them, but all countries have changed their aesthetic where Whippets are concerned, and IMO, for the better in terms of breeding a breed which appeals more broadly.

I agree that we risk too much width, round bone, and cloddy-looking Whippets today. I deplore that as a breeder, but I don't think those dogs are as unattractive to the pet buyer as the ones of decades ago. The registration and sales stats speak for themselves. The Whippet wasn't popular years ago because it wasn't generally a dog which was attractive to a large slice of pet owners, and now it is. I think that breeding for a dog who is less croquet-hoop shaped, and a bit less flimsy-looking to the public eye has increased the appeal of the breed.

 

[Seraphina]

bones.
So many breeds became so polished  that they are almost unrecognizable from those bred only 50 years ago.

This was my Irish Setter born about 1962, he was a typical example of his breed, and trained to work in the field

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My heart fills with longing when I see this dog. As I noted earlier, my grandfather bred, for field, Irish Setters trained to gun, for 70 years.

Lanny

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This Irish Setter was perfectly trained to both voice and signals, i could walk with him through crowded inner city street without leash, tell him to sit and stay while i would go to a shop and he would not budge, does not matter how long i would be.

Later on in the 70's in Australia I had a boyfriend who owned an Irish Setter, it was total maniac, uncontrollable, neurotic, terrified of its own shadow, with no bone. It was also show winning dog (w00t) . I could cry.

 

[Seraphina]

I wonder if the extreme roached backs were really as extreme or if the dogs were set up like that for a photo?  I have never seen one like that in person and i always wondered if people pull their dogs like that to show off their dogs' tuck up believing that more  is better.  Or was it, together with spindly legs, the legacy of some Italian Greyhound introduced into the breed in the past? 

I saw some like that back in the day and even had a few "throwbacks" to that style in some of my earlier litters.

I can't FORCE any of my current dogs to stand like that.

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Up till quite recently in some European countries people tried to emphasize their dogs' tuck-up and stood them like the picture bellow. This bitch is in fact very nice - i do have another photo of her somewhere, but all I can find is this one at 4 months

 

[Seraphina]

I agree that we risk too much width, round bone, and cloddy-looking Whippets today. I deplore that as a breeder, but I don't think those dogs are as unattractive to the pet buyer as the ones of decades ago.  The registration and sales stats speak for themselves.  The Whippet wasn't popular years ago because it wasn't generally a dog which was attractive to a large slice of pet owners, and now it is. I think that breeding for a dog who is less croquet-hoop shaped, and a bit less flimsy-looking to the public eye has increased the appeal of the breed.

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I have to admit I have never looked into the history of Whippets in USA. I did just accidentally stumbled today on website with some dogs from the past (not sure how long ago) and some were very flimsy indeed. But that is not my experience of the breed. The very small handful I have seen at shows in Europe during 50's and 60's were quite sturdy little dogs, none were so arched that it would seem exaggerated.

I have no problems for the breed to subtly change. That is inevitable, no species will look exactly the same few generations to the future, as long as it does not change too much and in "wrong" direction. Many people who buy Whippets from me are people who had large dogs most of their lives, but feel that now they do not wish to cope with large animal - either they are older, or do not have such a big garden/house as once had. They look at beagles, schnauzers etc., and settle on Whippet for being a very practical size dog with easy-care coat, which is what was the first thing that attracted many to this breed. If we allow Whippets to get few inches taller people might as well get a GAP greyhound. Lot easier than having Whippet pup to civilize.

I certainly agree that Whippet topline should have slight arch not a hoop

 

[chelynnah]

The Kennel Club don't (or rather won't) exercise their power but you can.Only sell pups to pet homes with clauses documented on their registration that they are not to be bred from.

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I not only had them sign the contract that the dog wasnt' to be bred from and had endorsements saying as such. I had them initial the part of the contract that stated the dog had endorsements. That way it couldn't be claimed later that they hadn't really read it through properly.

Now I actually feel really good about the homes where this litter went and felt a bit badly about taking such a strong tack, but with the KC allowing pups to be registered unless you can prove the owner knew in advance I figured this double check (signature on contract plus initials at the place where it stated) was probably for the best.

Wendy

 

[wild whippies]

Now I actually feel really good about the homes where this litter went and felt a bit badly about taking such a strong tack, but with the KC allowing pups to be registered unless you can prove the owner knew in advance I figured this double check (signature on contract plus initials at the place where it stated) was probably for the best.
Wendy

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I'm sorry but this is a joke! The KC seem hellbent on ruining breeds for the sake of pocketing their registration fees. Furthermore what's the point in even having 'not to be bred from' as an option if it's going to get overlooked? What if the pups had a genetic defect? Are the KC going to endorse such breeding and what knowledge do they have that gives them the right to condone such breeding?

I'm disgusted! :angry:

Wendy I wouldn't feel bad about selling pups with such endorsements, I had a very expensive Chinchilla cat bought under such terms and I never batted an eyelid. If I wanted another I would of returned to the breeder seeing as though she had far more experience than me on breeding these animals.

 

[petrezselyem]

I agree that we risk too much width, round bone, and cloddy-looking Whippets today. I deplore that as a breeder, but I don't think those dogs are as unattractive to the pet buyer as the ones of decades ago.  The registration and sales stats speak for themselves.  The Whippet wasn't popular years ago because it wasn't generally a dog which was attractive to a large slice of pet owners, and now it is. I think that breeding for a dog who is less croquet-hoop shaped, and a bit less flimsy-looking to the public eye has increased the appeal of the breed.

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I agree, but I also agree with Seraphina.

I don't like too wide fronts, too strong bones, too strong chests and as heavy built as a staffordshire terrier.

The breeders' responsibility is to keep the breed elegant and athletic, quick, dinamic and racy.

I think we have to be very careful with the red carpet tendencies....all the former exaggerations in the breed were kickbacks of volatile show trends.....don't You think?

But luckily all of these exaggerations (humped dogs with awful steep backs, etc) proved to be dead end. So I do hope that the main line of bearing is a moderate and versatile Whippet with healthy and athletic, but very elegant and balanced look and with lovely temperament.

I do hope that all the responsible breeders work for this.