Recall for intact male

[Amanda101]

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Hello does anyone have any tips regarding training recall to intact male dogs. I was recall training with a whistle using the Total Recall book for my 3 year old Irish terrier who has a high prey drive to chase, which was going very well for the first 4 or 5 months (during this time my 3 year old terrier was on chemical neutering for the first time via Suprelorin) and there was lots of progress with recall. However since the jag has now ceased and he's back to being intact full of testosterone again! I've noticed a definite change in obedience and his recall with whistle has deteriorated and he now often ignores the whistle completely when on walks. Very disappointing after getting quite far into the training program. He used to watch me and pay attention and engage while on walks but now he just keeps his head to the ground most of the time and wanders off (not too far from me) when we're outdoors sniffing and scenting and so when I blow the whistle he usually ignores it, only rarely does he come to me on command now. I am not going back to Suprelorin or neutering as aside from better recall there were more negatives than positives in my experience including some anxiety nervousness and aggression issues whilst on the drug which he hadn't demonstrated before and he's now much clamer, relaxed and confident but it's just that he ignores me and seems to be in a world of his own on walks and not as connected to my voice or whistle, is there any way you could provide some tips to train recall to intact males? Am surprised how being intact again has changed his recall behaviour considerably, maybe I should have waited to start the training after Suprelorin had ceased but I had lots of free time being on furlough and also I didn't think there would be any change to recall obedience afterwards when in reality the change has been very obvious and dramatic almost overnight in a short space of time of the drug wearing off, but let's hope I can restart and get him back to the recall level he was before which was actually pretty good and I was pleased at the success of the progress and how far we'd come. My dog now seems obsessed with sniffing the ground continuously on walks and marking territory and not much else distracts him anymore including my whistle thanks

 

[JoanneF]

If sniffing is so rewarding to him, can you make that part of the reward for recall? I'm thinking something like calling him to you for a fabulous sniffing opportunity.

There is a book which I haven't read myself but is getting good reviews - Hunting Together by Simone Mueller.

 

[Amanda101]

Hi Joanne
Many thanks for your reply and suggestion yes that is something I'd not thought of I'll definitely give that a try!

 

[JudyN]

I'm not an expert, but you might have to find a cue other than the whistle, as he has now learnt he can ignore it. (Possibly a whistle with a different frequency would work.) I made a point of never - or almost never - using the whistle if I thought he wouldn't come back, which sounds counterintuitive, but I think gets better results in the long term. So you would start using the new whistle when he's right next to you, and/or when he's on lead, and then when there's nothing of any interest whatsoever about, and follow it each time with a REALLY high value treat/game - throw a party! Only do this once or twice a walk, to keep its novelty value. You want him to whip his head round so fast when he hears the cue he nearly cricks his neck - like the instinctive reaction of a war veteran ducking when he hears a bang, but in a happy way!

Your first job is probably to make yourself more interesting on walks - treats, games, whatever floats his boat - and this might mean keeping him on a long line (attached to harness) so he can't go off and find his own fun. I also found it useful to have some 'soft' recall words that I didn't mind so much if they were ignored - e.g. 'This way now!' or 'Wassis?' - I sometimes get the impression that these can be more effective simply because they don't put pressure on him, or make him wonder if Im going to put him on lead and if I've spotted something he hasn't.

But then my dog is a bit of a velcro dog so he's been relatively easy (for a sighthound) to teach recall, so feel free to pick and choose any of my ramblings that you think might help.

 

[Hemlock]

I kept a stud dog whose recall was immaculate. It isn't your dog's intactness that has blown his recall, but you do need to start from basics again because he has learned he doesn't have to recall when you blow the whistle. Train him on his own, and use a long-line to begin with. Also choose your places, because recall has to be proofed in low-distraction environments (kindergarten stuff) before you move on to highly distracting areas full of wildlife (PhD level). And because he has learned he can refuse to recall to the whistle, I'm afraid you will have to use something else as a cue.

It's straightforward but not easy. You could do with a professional trainer to help, but avoid anyone who starts spouting pack theory and dominance. This is a training hiccup and you can get past it with the right help.

Posted same time as JudyN!

 

[Amanda101]

I'm not an expert, but you might have to find a cue other than the whistle, as he has now learnt he can ignore it. (Possibly a whistle with a different frequency would work.) I made a point of never - or almost never - using the whistle if I thought he wouldn't come back, which sounds counterintuitive, but I think gets better results in the long term. So you would start using the new whistle when he's right next to you, and/or when he's on lead, and then when there's nothing of any interest whatsoever about, and follow it each time with a REALLY high value treat/game - throw a party! Only do this once or twice a walk, to keep its novelty value. You want him to whip his head round so fast when he hears the cue he nearly cricks his neck - like the instinctive reaction of a war veteran ducking when he hears a bang, but in a happy way!

Your first job is probably to make yourself more interesting on walks - treats, games, whatever floats his boat - and this might mean keeping him on a long line (attached to harness) so he can't go off and find his own fun. I also found it useful to have some 'soft' recall words that I didn't mind so much if they were ignored - e.g. 'This way now!' or 'Wassis?' - I sometimes get the impression that these can be more effective simply because they don't put pressure on him, or make him wonder if Im going to put him on lead and if I've spotted something he hasn't.

But then my dog is a bit of a velcro dog so he's been relatively easy (for a sighthound) to teach recall, so feel free to pick and choose any of my ramblings that you think might help.

 

[Amanda101]

Thanks Judy for your advice
That's really helpful yes definitely softer words will be good as Here or Cime doesn't seem to work anymore!

 

[Amanda101]

I kept a stud dog whose recall was immaculate. It isn't your dog's intactness that has blown his recall, but you do need to start from basics again because he has learned he doesn't have to recall when you blow the whistle. Train him on his own, and use a long-line to begin with. Also choose your places, because recall has to be proofed in low-distraction environments (kindergarten stuff) before you move on to highly distracting areas full of wildlife (PhD level). And because he has learned he can refuse to recall to the whistle, I'm afraid you will have to use something else as a cue.

It's straightforward but not easy. You could do with a professional trainer to help, but avoid anyone who starts spouting pack theory and dominance. This is a training hiccup and you can get past it with the right help.

Posted same time as JudyN!

 

[Amanda101]

Thanks very much yes I think I'll go back to the beginning again on the long lead, maybe buy a new sounding whistle too!

 

[Amanda Moorhouse]

Hi Amanda,

I feel your pain! I have a 7 month old intact male pup who is doing exactly the same thing. A Jackerpoo so I'm told he has a hunting nature but we have lost a lot of our training which is such a shame. He just runs and also ignores his whistle. Not sure how old your dog is but I have been told it could be a phase, if that makes anything feel any better. The advice I was given is to keep going with the training and if you need to go back a few steps then that's totally normal. We have gone back to his squeaky teddy (much to my husband's embarrassment) but it does get better results now than the whistle. I know how stressful and frustrating it is though. Good luck!

 

[Amanda101]

Hi Amanda,

I feel your pain! I have a 7 month old intact male pup who is doing exactly the same thing. A Jackerpoo so I'm told he has a hunting nature but we have lost a lot of our training which is such a shame. He just runs and also ignores his whistle. Not sure how old your dog is but I have been told it could be a phase, if that makes anything feel any better. The advice I was given is to keep going with the training and if you need to go back a few steps then that's totally normal. We have gone back to his squeaky teddy (much to my husband's embarrassment) but it does get better results now than the whistle. I know how stressful and frustrating it is though. Good luck!

 

[Amanda101]

Thanks Amanda that's helpful advice I'll try going back a few steps, he only seems to be distracted when I run away and he can chase me as his prey drive is so strong to chase anything moving fast so perhaps I'll just run instead of using a whistle!

 

[JacksDad]

The root of your issue isn't being intact, it is Matching Law. Which is when there is competing reinforcement, the reinforcement that has a deeper history of being acquired, or is easier to get wins. To create an image of how this looks, equate a 5 second sniff to a small piece of chicken breast, in 1 minute of sniffing how many pieces of chicken breast did your dog just get? 12. how many did he get for coming back to you? 1? sniffing wins, it is far more reinforcing.

now, what if sniffing is significantly more valuable than a bit of chicken? In human terms sniffing is Platinum, and your chicken is just plain old "cheap" 14K gold plating on stainless steel? first, you make sure you practice a lot in an environment that provides little of interest to sniff. Second, you make it SUPER easy to get that chicken. Finally, you do not reinforce with a single piece of chicken, you reinforce with maybe 5 pieces given one at a time as quickly as possible each time your dog successfully comes when called. This builds the deep history you need, you have made it easy to get the reinforcement, and lots of it. then slowly introduce distractions. start with very easy ones, and build to the hard ones. Only increase difficulty as your dog shows they have mastered the level you are currently working at.

Lastly, what does your recall predict? Classical Conditioning is a behavior law that is often overlooked and it deals with what something predicts and thus what associations do you develop at a "reflexive" level. When you call your dog to you, what does that predict? Thus what association does your dog develop? if you get frustrated and upset when your dog doesn't respond, that can also factor into the breaking of a recall. your recall has come to predict an unpleasant experience. Or does your recall predict always fun and reinforcement?

Teaching the basics of a recall to your dog is quick. depending on your experience and time to train, anywhere from a day to a week to get the basics in place. What takes MUCH LONGER is training your dog to apply those basic skills in a wide variety of environments with it's own distractions and reinforcers. It can take the better part of a year to take those basic skills you train in your living room or back yard and practice them carefully so your dog doesn't learn to ignore you in the real world.

Be patient, do not over estimate your dog's skill, be HIGHLY reinforcing and fun, and you will get there.

 

[Amanda101]

The root of your issue isn't being intact, it is Matching Law. Which is when there is competing reinforcement, the reinforcement that has a deeper history of being acquired, or is easier to get wins. To create an image of how this looks, equate a 5 second sniff to a small piece of chicken breast, in 1 minute of sniffing how many pieces of chicken breast did your dog just get? 12. how many did he get for coming back to you? 1? sniffing wins, it is far more reinforcing.

now, what if sniffing is significantly more valuable than a bit of chicken? In human terms sniffing is Platinum, and your chicken is just plain old "cheap" 14K gold plating on stainless steel? first, you make sure you practice a lot in an environment that provides little of interest to sniff. Second, you make it SUPER easy to get that chicken. Finally, you do not reinforce with a single piece of chicken, you reinforce with maybe 5 pieces given one at a time as quickly as possible each time your dog successfully comes when called. This builds the deep history you need, you have made it easy to get the reinforcement, and lots of it. then slowly introduce distractions. start with very easy ones, and build to the hard ones. Only increase difficulty as your dog shows they have mastered the level you are currently working at.

Lastly, what does your recall predict? Classical Conditioning is a behavior law that is often overlooked and it deals with what something predicts and thus what associations do you develop at a "reflexive" level. When you call your dog to you, what does that predict? Thus what association does your dog develop? if you get frustrated and upset when your dog doesn't respond, that can also factor into the breaking of a recall. your recall has come to predict an unpleasant experience. Or does your recall predict always fun and reinforcement?

Teaching the basics of a recall to your dog is quick. depending on your experience and time to train, anywhere from a day to a week to get the basics in place. What takes MUCH LONGER is training your dog to apply those basic skills in a wide variety of environments with it's own distractions and reinforcers. It can take the better part of a year to take those basic skills you train in your living room or back yard and practice them carefully so your dog doesn't learn to ignore you in the real world.

Be patient, do not over estimate your dog's skill, be HIGHLY reinforcing and fun, and you will get there.

 

[Amanda101]

Thanks so much for this information I will definitely make the reinforcement better and also get better treats too and more of them!