Recall........or lack of! help!

[goldenbear2013]

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My dog Bear is 19 1/2 months old and is wonderful dog.

he has done obedience classes since he was 11 weeks old and done all of his exams and passed with flying colours. He is now onto agility which he loves and doing well at it.

However!!!!! He has decided that he no longer cares to listen to me when I want him to come back to me.

We let him off in the fields when we take him out for walks and he loves it. He bombs around quite happily and always stays in our sights, he doesnt wander off thankfully! and so far we havent lost him.

We play fetch with his tennis ball also which he loves so we mix it up for him, so it doesnt get boring.

Now when we used to call him back to us, he used to come to us quite happily with no issues. He still does this now with his tennis ball, comes back drops it by my side and waits for me to throw it again.

However, after a certain point he decides that he doesnt want to listen to me anymore and just doesnt come back when called. He will come back to me when he feels like it, not when I call him. I could have the best tasting treat in the world for him (sausage, ham, chicken etc) and he doesnt care, and he is a food orientated dog, thats how we train him.

Now I have gone back to basics and started training him from scratch and he is perfect, so then we let him off and he goes back to coming back when he feels like it. He knows the command as well which is the most annoying part!

After a certain point even playing with his ball he just holds it in his mouth and doesnt come back to me and just runs baout like a loon!

I even walk, sometimes run off in the other direction, so he will come and chase me and come back to me but he doesnt seem to care! I look a right idiot legging it across a field with no dog but I do what i must despite it not working

I am slightly at a loss as to what I can do really to get him to listen to me.

In every other area of his training he is brilliant. Walks to heel, brilliant at home, I have even taught him to play dead!! Everything except this!

His independant streak is growing and I'm concerned that we may lose him at some point.

I either dont let him off his lead and I end up with a dog that is hyper as he has no play time off lead, or let him off his lead and hope for the best at some point, when he feels like it, he will come back to me.

If anyone has any ideas or has had a similar experience then please help me!

Walks are becoming less enjoyable because of this and I want them to go back to how they were!!!!

HELP!

Sophie x

 

[Asteria]

You know a lot more about dogs than me so I can't help but I've been reading a really good puppy book by Pippa Martinson. She also has one called Total Recall which has good reviews. I know that's not much help but I thought I'd mention it.

Out of curiosity, what treats or food do you use? Have you tried liver cake or fish skin treats?

 

[goldenbear2013]

I've tried everything!!! His favourite is sausage or cheese! I even put both together but no good!!!

The total recall book is worth a a quick read, but reading some of the sections already, its what Ive already done, and he still does not care to listen to me!

Nightmare! :angry: :angry:

Sophie x

 

[gypsysmum]

For a dog to respond to a command he has to want to do it. We usually ensure that a dog wants to respond by rewarding the correct response with a thrilling game or a tasty treat.

Somewhere, in your case, this has gone wrong. He is not wanting to return for some reason. You have explored all the options with rewards but have you explored any aversives that he might be feeling. Does a recall, for instance, signal the end of all his fun. It does seem as though he is having the most amazing fun on his walks. It seems to me that coming back, if it signals the end of his fun, must be quite hard for him. If this is the case then lots of training, on a long line, where he comes back, gets rewarded and then goes off to play again

Have there been any instances when he has been told off for a slow recall? Has he been grabbed, maybe for his own safety, after a recall? Try really hard to remember back to when he started to muck around and not return when called. Is he often called away from playing with another dog and does he resent this?

One thing to try is to change the cue. If you call his name then try using "here" or "come" paired with a treat or thrilling game. A better one would be a whistle. A whistle is never angry or frustrated. If you start off in the house and garden and keep the game very upbeat and positive he may lose any negative associations he has built up and learn to enjoy returning again.

Do remember when training recall to call the dog regularly to reward and release so that the end of his fun is only once every five or six times in his walk time.

 

[goldenbear2013]

Thank you for your response gypsymum, that's actually quite insightful.

He doesn't get put back on his lead everytime we call him. We call him, treat him, give a big fuss as a well done and let him go play again. This way he has learnt that he doesnt always go back on his lead.

However, as he eats poop (not his own, other dogs or whatever he can find!) we call him back to try and get him to stop doing this and he doesnt come. We have ran towards him before and told him off if we managed to get hold of him and gave him a stern "leave it" command, but if he did leave the poop alone it was followed by a reward, so I'm not sure if that's it?? He made himself very very ill one time from his bad eating habits out in the fields, which resulted in an over night stay at the emergency vets, this is why we are so concerned about him eating poop or whatever else he gets his chops round as we dont want it to happen again, or even worse!

He doesn't come back when me and my partner are together, and if im honest James is the disciplinarian more than me. He corrects him alot and I only correct him when i feel it right. For example, if there is no correction within the first 3 seconds of the unwanted behaviour then I dont do it as he wont know what he has done wrong. James however corrects him regardless and i tell him not to do that but James does it anyway.

I genuinly think he is a bit scared come to think of it, as we have chased him off before to try and stop him eating poop, but I have given up with this as it just doesnt work and I think on some level, after you said in your comments that he is slightly fearful to come back, as well as being a clever little sod and knowing when its time to go home and he doesnt want to, he just carries on running around far enough away from me so he knows I cant him!!! I underestimate how clever he is sometimes i really do!

We went out to the fields yesterday, just me and Bear, no James (my partner) and he was perfect. Everytime I called him back to me he came, but this isnt always the case. He is very hit and miss with me, but I let him do his own thing when we go out walking or play with his ball, and only call him back just to reinforce the command or when we are going home.

I also know that he is at "that age" where he is coming to the end of his teenage years so like any teenager, desnt feel like his moms advice is always best! lol

I may try whistle training actually. Like you say there is only one sound and to try and do this starting off at home and going from there.

Thank you again

Sophie x

 

[gypsysmum]

You are probably correct with your assumption that getting cross over the poo eating is affecting your relationship with him on walks. If you can't win the battle (over eating poo) then don't start a war.

I have had great success with poo eating dogs by feeding them Natural Yoghurt. I watched my dog eating poo and it seemed to me that she was searching for "something" rather than enjoying it. It then occurred to me that she may be searching for bacteria to colonise her gut. This led to me trying Natural Yoghurt at the rate of a dessertspoonful per day (more to start with). Several friends have had success with this method too.

I would use a "leave" command rather than a recall when he goes after poo.

To teach "leave it" - have a treat in each hand and let the dog sniff one of the hands. The minute he takes his nose off the hand (in frustration usually!) tell him "good!" and treat him from the other hand. He must never get the treat from the hand he sniffs. Just keep waiting him out and treating him as soon as he lifts his nose from the forbidden hand. Once he "gets it" you will see him quickly lift his nose away from the forbidden hand and look to the treating hand for a reward. It is then that you add the word for "leave it".

Practice the newly learned trick all over the house and garden and then start to introduce him to treats just partly covered by a hand until you can put a treat in full view (being ready to grab it before he gets to it) and tell him to leave it. Do be sure to reward him the moment he turns his head from the forbidden fruit! Once he has this command you can use it on all sorts of treats and toys and then, finally on Poo!

Although it looks wonderful it is dangerous to teach a dog "leave it" and then "take it" with the same treat. Some dogs will just cut down the waiting time between leaving it and taking it until they just don't see the point in waiting at all! In the case of poo eating you do not want them to "take it" anyway!

If you see him approach poo - tell him "leave it" - using your training voice not a scream, and then get in there with a fantastic treat to reward him. Run away if necessary. If he gets the poo then just mark it down to experience and try to intercept him at the next one.

I went so far as to pick up all the poos down the bridlepath which I use so that there would only be the odd one to deal with while training my girl. Some people use muzzles while the dog is undergoing training.

Of course if the yoghurt works you won't need to worry!

 

[goldenbear2013]

Thank you for your response. He has an excelent "leave it" command, right up to dropping human food on the floor and him not touching it. We taught him "leave it" right from when he was a pup. He will leave the poop alone if he close to us but if he is a far enough distance away from us the "leave it" command does not work. He just doesnt listen so we have given up.

However I will try the natural yoghurt to see how it goes with that. Even if it reduces the amount he eats would be better than nothing.

Thank you again

Sophie x

 

[eingana]

Hi Sophie

I can't help noticing Bear's age and wonder whether that has a part to play in it all too. Has he had many boundary testing phases? It's possible that there's an element of boundary testing in all of his behaviour at the moment, so I'd make adjustments to reduce the fear, combat the poo eating and putting him on the lead a lot more, then just keep on keeping on for a while.

When you call him back you let him go a lot but he may still know that there's a certain time in a walk when he's being called back and put on the lead and that signifies the end of the walk. For that reason I'd call him back every few minutes and put him on the lead every time you call him back, even if that's for 10 seconds to give him a fuss and let him back off again, and if there's any way that you can also introduce random direction changes of the walk so he can't work out whether you're on the way away from the car/home or the way back again, I'm sure that wouldn't hurt either. With a bit of luck that should play a part in adapting the time when he just stops coming back to you.

Clever dogs eh? These days I'm getting more and more convinced that Molly is psychic. I don't even need to move before she knows that we're going out, and she's now so accustomed to being called back when another dog comes into view that she comes back without being called and offers her neck up for her collar to be grabbed.

I hope you have the phase dealt with and Bear back to being that little bit safer soon

 

[goldenbear2013]

Thank you Eingana.

I emailed his breeder too and she said that he is going through puberty so his independant streaks will come and go. She gave me some advice which is very similar to yours.

I try to call him back randomly, so he cannot predict when I'm going to do it; like you said, when we are going back to the car etc.

He only gets time off the lead of a weekend. The rest of the week he is on lead, as we walk him before and after work and at these times it is dark, so i dont go to the fields where I take as obviously i cannot see anything! so as you say he has a bit of both.

He is such an excitable dog and I think he gets so excited that he tunes out, BUT despite of this he should still come back to me regardless of his excitment levels.

Saying that, I have taken him up the fields 3 or 4 times over the last week and every time he has been perfect and came back when called so who knows!

I will be taking on board everyones advice and see how I fare.

Hopefully I will be back to having an almost perfect dog soon!

Sophie x

 

[gypsysmum]

Perhaps more exercise may help here? I know it is difficult in the winter but it is often at the root of a lot of problems. We are all encouraged to walk more and so, if you have time, you could walk him more?

Remember to reward him well when he comes back. He may see going on the lead as a negative and so start to avoid coming back. I would just lure him to have his collar touched to receive a really tasty treat (liver cake, cheese etc). I realise it is not safe for him to go off lead so walking further may be the only answer here if you want to tire him out sufficiently.

 

[goldenbear2013]

Hi Gypsymum.

He gets walked 3 times a day during the week and then twice a day on the weekends, one of them walks being around 2 hours long (both Saturdays and Sundays) and that is all off lead for the most part, in a water park where he even gets to go swimming, and sometimes I meet up with a friend who has 2 dogs.

He goes agility once a week as well and I train him at home, so lack of stimulation is not an issue.

The last couple of weeks he has been spot on! No issue at all. The only time he has been slightly difficult is when he knows we are getting close to the car, as he is having so much fun he doesn't want to go home. This is no real issue as he is so tired by that point he hasn't got the energy to run off!

I am going to put it down to his "teenage years" as like all teenagers they do go through a rebellious phase! I think his is just off and on and at the moment.

I appreciate all of your responses though, they have all been really helpful

Sophie x

 

[genghis]

My friend trained her dog to come back by taking him to the park and using a really long piece of roap instead of a lead, so the dog gets to run long distance but you still have control of him untill he has learned to come back when called again. Make sure he is rewarded and that you call his name and shout come here everytime you want him to come back so he gets used to the command again.

I also have to reccomend half-check collars because they are just so genius! I have trained Genghis to sit everytime he hears his collar click together, meaning I simply have to pull on his lead now to get him to sit before crossing a road or whatever you want.

This is the website I bought mine from: https://www.contactleft.co.uk/ukom-half-check-dog-training-collar.html
I've used it on him since it was a pup and its still in very good condition, despite him having a little chew every now and again :>

Also he looks very handsome in it I'm sure you'll agree.

 

[goldenbear2013]

Hi there! Your boy is a very handsome looking boy!

I've used long leads before and they work a treat but as soon as we practiced without it he was off!

However, over the last few months (posted my original question in January) there has been a vast improvement in his recall. I think it's down to over excitement sometimes and him just generally being a pup!

We didn't do anything different with him, just gritted out teeth and used the training we know!

I have come to realize that his phases come and go, and we just lock down his training more so when he having what I like to call " special moments"! lol.

For the half check collars, we did try one once on Bear and he got so scared he lay on the floor and wouldn't move. Clearly the collar isn't suite to all dogs!

He is perfect on lead, sits at every curb when we cross the road etc and he doesn't pull he walks to heel perfectly (most of the time) so we have no need for one!

I appreciate your response though and you taking the time to respond.

Sophie x

 

[genghis]

Thank you very much, as do you. I used to have a black lab until fortunately she passed away last year.

Glad to hear that your problem has been resolved.

That's very strange about the half-check collar but like you say all dogs react differently, my friend has a dog who is terrifed of the dishwasher because of the noise it makes whilst on at night.

 

[Raven oaktree]

hia, we have exactly the same problem..Willow has been to puppy /training class since she was 12 weeks old, she is now 8 months and STILL refuses to come back..we have done everything everyone has reccomended and nothing works..as soon as she is off her lead she is gone. Im just not taking the risk anymore and she is on a long lead till she decides she is gonna come back

 

[goldenbear2013]

I don't blame you Raven oaktree! Bear is so much better than he was, but for a time we had to keep him on a 10 meter lead so we could reel him in (literally) if he went too far and didn't come back when called.

He still has his days when he has selective hearing and just wont come back for toffee, especially when he is in the fields and he puts his nose to work!

The joys of having a puppy eh!

Sophie x

 

[Raven oaktree]

Ohhh tell me about it !! my puppy trainer said let her off the lead..at his age they stick to you like glue !!..that was at 12 weeks old..we took her off the lead and she was like 'BYE THEN' ..and she was gone.....we have done EVERYTHING, but if she decides she is going to go nothing brings her back..she put her nose to work too....at home we just shout 'Willow come' and she comes, sometimes we give her a treat sometimes we dont..if we notice she is a bit slow coming we up her treats..but if she is outside the home boundry NOTHING tempts her..we jump around...look exciting..have yummy treats squeeky toys throw balls, ignore her..turn and walk the other way..and tons of other stuff...as soon as we take her off she is like'' anyway guys really nice knowing you..thanks for the grub n stuff but i'll be off now , see ya around'! ppfftttt..our problem is we want to do flyball and agility with her when she is old enough but till we crack this coming back lark im too scared to risk it

 

[goldenbear2013]

Bless you! Bear has his moments like that, but if he sees us walking the other way he does come back. I dread to think what people think when they see me legging it across the field AWAY from my dog and then he starts chasing me! Quite humorous I would expect!

try hiding. We do this and that means that when she wants to find you she has to use her nose to find you! Win win!

Bear does agility and he comes back because we are working him. His brain is concentrating on what I want him to do and he is focused on that and not what his nose is telling him, so you may find that she will be quite good at it if you try! We had to wait until Bear was 12 months old as they wont let them weave until they turn 12 months because of their joints. Some don't let you jump until they are that age either, I know mine didn't. I had to wait.

Plus when you first start everything is done on lead anyway so she cant run off. If she loves to jump and run then agility or fly ball will be brilliant as she will love it so much she wont even think about running off.

My classes are in a barn so Bear cant really go anywhere. He does what we call 'The Wall of Death' round the barn when he gets so excited he doesn't know what to do except tuck his bum underneath his legs and bolt! Running round and then spinning in circles cus his excitement gets the better of him! Its quite hilarious to watch but until he stops doing that we cant put him in for competitions!

Sophie x

 

[Raven oaktree]

Our classes are in a field , she has had taster sessions, but like your classes, no jumps or weaves till she reaches 12 months, its done off lead in our classes , she is let off the lead to do the activities, which she loves and is a natural at...but when she completes something is does a 'lap of honour' hahahaha, which includes jumping on all the other (well behaved ) dogs heads to try and get them to play...she is still a puppy, but he problem is she is a big pup, so i think people forget that she is just a silly excitable pup...she has grown up so much in the last few months im sure she will mature again before 12 months so maybe she will be calmer..i honestly dont think people realise just how much energy she has, and that combined with the fact she is young, silly and excitable is a nightmare in class...all the training she has cracked no problem, she is very clever and very quick to learn..but she is excitable too

as regards hiding in the park..we do..we have done that since she was tiny to try and keep her focused on us ..but even that dosent bother her. we play hide and seek in the garden and house, sometimes we will hide her raggy or we hide..the we say find it willow and she is off on a treasure hunt..she is always soooo excite when she finds us , we give her tons of treats and praise..but outside she has got wayyyy more important things to be doing...i think its because she is a teenager and dosent want to be seen with us haahahahah

 

[goldenbear2013]

Each dog is different. Bear is still very hit and miss and he is nearly 2. thankfully more hit than miss these days!

As I have said before he was a right sod at times, and so we kept him on a 10 meter lead for ages and when he bolted we trod on the lead stopping him from legging it out of our site.

I'm sure you will find a happy medium eventually.

You tried a walking buddy? Another dog she can walk and play with when off lead. A dog that has good recall? That way when they go back to their owner she should follow and come to you too. Again, another thing we did with Bear that worked a treat.

I was nearly in tears sometimes, as the lack of control just got to me! The frustration was too much at times, but my boy is soooooo much better now and we can really enjoy walks in the fields now.

In time, I'm sure she her recall will improve, you've just got to grin and bear it!

Sophie x