Reinforcing barking and/or barking to go out to toilet

[bombolone]

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Hello

I have a question which hopefully someone might have some helpful thoughts on.... My 15 week puppy, who is in a playpen with crate inside, has started barking A LOT. He barks:

- when he is upset that we are leaving the room

- when we get our coats on to go out

- when we pick keys up to go out (either with/without him)

- when he hears us walking around in our bedroom upstairs

- when he hears our car arrive outside the house

- when he hears a rustle of food packaging (thinking it might be for him)

- when he smells tasty things from kitchen

- when his food is on the way

and.......... most confusingly

- when it is time for him to go out because he needs the loo.

He didn't used to bark much at all. Since toilet training, he has started barking a lot. This is obviously because we are reinforcing barking with taking him out - in an effort to get him well house trained. Given all the above reasons, you can imagine we are spending a lot of time with him in the garden with nothing happening on the toilet front - he was just barking for attention or one of the reasons above.

So we got tough and ignored the barking. Doing "controlled" barking e.g. put coat on, he barks, take it off and wait, put back on, he holds off, then barks, then take off etc. until he lets me put it on without barking. That works. The trouble is that he has had TWO accidents indoors (having been dry) because we have not responded to the barks which obviously meant he needed the loo.

It's very confusing to know what to do! Catch the bathroom call (and go in and out all day) or work on not reinforcing barking - but ruin toilet training?! What am I doing wrong? Any advice or ideas very much appreciate..

Thank you!

 

[gypsysmum2]

A very bright dog by the sound of it!

In the short term I would only ignore his barking if you know his bladder is empty. House training is by far the most important thing that we teach our dogs (apart from bite inhibition that is). You do not want to risk setting him back on that. When he is outside give him zero attention unless he wees.

Ignore his barking at all other times and train in an incompatible action such as chewing on an interactive toy like a stuffed Kong so that his mouth is occupied. Some dogs are reluctant to bark when lying down so you could try that too. Put him in the down position and reward it while you perform one of the activities that cause him to bark.

Another suggestion is to train him to ring doggy door bells, that hang on the door, in order to be let out. Then gradually fade out the barking altogether by ignoring him completely when he barks.

Another suggestion is to train a "speak" and "shush" so that you have control over the barking. Once he has "shushed" you can carry on with whatever activity it is that is causing him to bark. Barking can be self rewarding so keeping it to a minimum and giving him lots of attention for being quiet will help it to fade out.

Anticipate when he may bark and try to get his attention. Reward any quiet behaviour that you are able to achieve and gradually ask for longer and longer periods of quiet before he gets the reward. For instance, one person could go upstairs and move about while the other rewards him for quiet behaviour. One person open a packet while the other rewards quiet behaviour etc.

Generally speaking - what kind of food is he on? Some foods are like rocket fuel and will cause dogs to be very reactive (did I say Bakers? among others). How much exercise and mental stimulation is he getting? Make sure he is using up his brain doing useful things and that he is getting enough, age appropriate, outside exercise and mental stimulation.

How much time does he spend in his playpen? Can he have more freedom yet?

Gather up all his toys and split them into three groups. Only put one group down at a time. Gather up the first group before putting down the second group and gain with the third. This can help with boredom.

 

[bombolone]

WOW what an incredible helpful and thoughtful reply gypsysmum2! So much in there I am extremely grateful...

Question - do you think it is a good idea to take him out on a lead - then only let him off to play if he wees/poos? Otherwise take in back in? That way no toilet action = wasted barking to go out? Or is that too complex?

We were advised by a trainer to keep him in the playpen until 16 weeks so he doesn't ever learn to chew/destroy things and has passed the worst stage where he might be prone to this, so it doesn't become a habit. It has always seemed a bit harsh to us but we want to raise a well trained pup so have stuck with it (we are - as you can tell - new to dog ownership!!). Only 4 weeks to go with the playpen.

We are taking him for 2-3 walks a day (one long one off leash for an hour in the morning, and two shorter walks in the afternoon) and I am doing training with him every day with clicker. I also try to take him out of pen for cuddles and grooming etc. when I can. He is right 'in the thick of things' in the middle of our kitchen/dining room.

Should I be doing other things?

From your list I will try to teach him "shush" and speak, if I can. I guess I just click and reward the relevant sounds, then cue them....

At the moment he is on 'guru' food. But he has had a bad tummy on and off with it so we are going to try Orijen. So neither full of cheap fillers...

I think reading your comments i might go against the trainer and let him out in the kitchen a bit more - he must be bored... he is an active little thing! Toy suggestion is very good. He seems bored with EVERYTHING i have bought (and there are a lot!).

Thanks again. Great suggestions..

 

[gypsysmum2]

Whilst puppy pens and crates are great tools that is all they are. Yes use one when you cannot watch your puppy carefully but when you can give him your full attention, and distract him from chewing inappropriate things, then he could be allowed out.

This confinement might be the main reason for his barking. He may be feeling frustrated. Puppies love to explore. Chewing is caused by many things. Frustration is one of them. Boredom is another, as is teething and anxiety. Prevention (by confining him to a pen) certainly has its part to play but a balance needs to be found.

I think the lead and house training might be a bit too complicated. Just stand with your arms folded, like a boring statue, until he "performs" and then give a high value reward immediately. From what you say he was almost trained until the barking got in the way. Once he has more freedom in the house, and feels less frustrated, he may not be so difficult to handle when outside. You could put wees and poos on "cue". Guide dogs teach their pups to "Wee wee" and "Be busy". This saves time when it is pouring with rain!

As he pauses in his barking, say "shush" then click and treat. Then wait a nano second before clicking, then a second before clicking, then two seconds until you see the change in his demeanour which means he has "got it" and realises the click arrives after a period of silence.

If anything an hour of free running exercise is rather more than he needs at his age. There is a calculation related to minutes of exercise versus months of age but it escapes me at the moment. Someone will remember and post it. You don't say what breed he is. Light boned breeds fare better than big boned breeds but care of their joints at this age is important. Puppies need socialisation and habituation with the environment they will inhabit for the rest of their lives. He could be seeing all sorts of sights like buses, trains, shops, traffic etc etc. This will tire him out.

The crate and the pen will have helped with his housetraining as dogs are reluctant to toilet where they eat and sleep. Be careful when you give him more freedom as he may a) be very excited and forget to go outside and b) may consider the wide open space of the house as a safe place to toilet away from his sleeping area.

 

[bombolone]

Thank you once again gypsysmum2! What sound advice. I think you are right and he probably is frustrated.

Clicking and treating the "Shush"s is a good idea, and then delaying the click. Thank you for the suggestion. There is so much to click and treat!

In the garden he has a lovely time there wee or no wee, no matter what I do. He finds a nice juicy piece of bark (which is in all our flower beds!) lies down and chews it - he could stay like that for an hour! He won't play with a ball or anything once he is relaxing with some bark! I think it also distracts him from the need to go to the loo... He loves to chew bark! Better than the furniture I guess... But I am spending so much time standing around outside. Every 2 hours (which I guess is about where he is at with wees) and also after naps and after food. I would say 4 times out of 5 there is no 'action' of any kind. Number 2s seem to have no schedule yet (I have been writing it down for 2 weeks and we keep food times consistent). So it is a bit tedious to put it mildly! I have put a cue on any action "quick quick" and treat immediately afterwards - have been doing this for 6 weeks now. But he has yet to do anything when I try to say it BEFORE there is any action. He sometimes just looks to me for a treat as if to say 'I thought that meant you were about to treat me?". So I need advice from those guide dogs about transitioning the cue from 'during' to 'before' to trigger the toilet action!

I will look up the exercise recommendation online - I also agree that we are probably giving him too much, it is just that he needs stimulation, as you say.

When you say 'be careful when you give him more freedom' about the toileting risks in a wider space, do you have any advice?

Once again, thank you so much for the advice. I am excited to try it.

 

[hollysh]

I think someone said 5 minutes per month of age. Though i don't think this is a regimented rule. I look after a 8 month old puppy. He's a spaniel but runs like a greyhound the moment he gets on the beach. He can go miles. Loads of energy. You seem to be a very dedicated owner. My dog also barks when he needs to pee. He's 3. He's always done it. It's always to tell us something not for the sake of it. It's not ideal behaviour though granted. Can be trying at times.

 

[JoanneF]

I think what Gypsysmum meant about being careful about toileting when he has access to more of the house is - watch him like a hawk! You don't want him starting to think that it's ok to toilet in other parts of the house, just because it's outside of his pen. So if he starts to sniff, circle or scratch the floor, get him out straight away.

The 5 minutes walking par month of age is correct. It refers to 'enforced' walking though - him choosing to run around is different and doesn't need factored in. However, that being said he could get overstimulated and as Gypsysmum said, his bones are still forming so it shouldn't be unlimited.

There is a very good book called The Puppy Plan that you might want to take a look at.

 

[bombolone]

Thank you everyone. All so helpful and supportive. Toilet training is going well so that is one thing! hollysh, I wouldn't mind the barking if it were just for a wee! The trouble is it is for everything and I don't know what! Including excitement, me coming home, etc etc. If I can get to it just being (or mainly being) clearly for a wee, then that will be good! Thank you.

I will take a look at that book JoanneF, thank you. And watch like a hawk as you suggest. I didn't know floor scratching was a sign they needed the loo - good to know! Sniffing is a bit different as he sniffs EVERYTHING in the kitchen! There must be scents there from many a dropped food item that I obviously can't see...

Thank you all.

 

[gypsysmum2]

The "I need a wee" kind of sniffing is a bit less intense than investigative sniffing. They look a bit distracted and often circle at the same time.

One other tip, with the barking, is to make a mental note to pay attention to him when he is quiet. It is so easy for us to think "thank goodness" when they settle down and are quiet and we then get on with our chores and ignore the dog! Perhaps put a post it note on the phone and cooker etc so that, if he is quiet, you can give him some gentle attention. Over time he will start to offer the quiet behaviour in order to get attention.

 

[bombolone]

Fantastic suggestion.... Thank you once again!

 

[hollysh]

My mum has started using a water pistol recently. Doesn't hurt him. She just threatens to squirt him when he barks and he instantly stops. May sound cruel to some but it has worked wonders. She's only actually squirted him once.

I agree with the quiet time and giving him attention. Also make a note of his meal times etc. and stick to the same schedule regardless of whether he barks or not. So he knows he will get fed and get to go outside even if he doesn't do that. And will get more treats perhaps.

 

[gypsysmum2]

While things like water pistols may work at the time, you are not curing a behaviour just suppressing it. If there is an underlying problem causing the barking then that will not go away and may manifest itself in other, undesirable, behaviours. Also the dog may become immune to being squirted (I have heard of some that came to like it and would bark to be squirted ) and you are then back to square one.

 

[hollysh]

He gets his food at the scheduled times and goes for walks regularly he just gets a bit stubborn sometimes wanting his dinner early we have had him 3 years and have become very in tune to his demands he's a very happy dog.

 

[gypsysmum2]

Ha ha! It is never too early for dinner if you are a dog!

 

[hollysh]

lol He's on a diet. He likes his food too much. But with my dog walking, he's going on a bit of a boot camp

 

[gypsysmum2]

When you say "boot camp" do you mean you are going to exercise him lots to trim him down? It is advisable to be careful with exercise and puppies as their joints are still forming. This would be particularly relevant to an overweight puppy as the weight is putting extra strain on the joints.

If he is overweight I would make an appointment with the vet nurse at your local practice. They do weight clinics (usually for free) where the dog is weighed and the diet and exercise is discussed in detail for that particular dog.