Retained Testicles And The Genetics Involved.

[stonegrace]

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If you have 4 male pups in a litter, 2 of those have retained testicles, you obviously run on one of the males with both testicles - if you use him over your girls later down the track, is he likely to pass on retained testicles to his pups even if he has both but his litter mates had either 1 or both retained?

Im not sure about the genetics with passing it on, beraring in mind this pup has 2 testicles. Does anyone here have experience with this issue?

 

[memyselfNi]

At what age are you saying they are retained? They may still not have fully descended if only 12-14wks.

 

[Avalonia]

If you have 4 male pups in a litter, 2 of those have retained testicles, you obviously run on one of the males with both testicles - if you use him over your girls later down the track, is he likely to pass on retained testicles to his pups even if he has both but his litter mates had either 1 or both retained?Im not sure about the genetics with passing it on, beraring in mind this pup has 2 testicles. Does anyone here have experience with this issue?

Hello from Canada. Visit this website and digest the information contained in it because it is the clearest most detailed explanation of retrained testicles and genetic inheritance I know of:

http://www.pet-informed-veterinary-advice-...torchidism.html

After you read that you may well realize how futile it is to continue with any dogs or bitches from a litter with this inheritable problem. If it were my litter I would sell all the pups in the litter and place the on non-breeding terms. What you need to do is to find dogs from litters where every dog is entire and use dogs from those lines. Some may still be carriers, as you will see from the inheritance models provided in this article, but you stand a substantially clearer possiblity of avoiding problems since you do need both parents to be carriers.

For the record we have only had 3 retained testicles in three dozen litters over the past two and a half decades. Every single dog ever sired by our two most used sires in the past decade and a half -- Cdn.Ch. Avlaonia Wotta Jesta and Cdn.Ch. Nevedith Local Lancer -- were entire. We have used two sons of Lancer since he died and all their males were entire too. The three pups with an undescended testicle came from an imported American male from a major American kennel, and an imported male who was half our line and half a California bloodline we knew might have (and it turns out did carry a testicle problem when we acquired him though the litter he came from himself was entire (there was just himself and a litter brother so not a lot of dogs to judge by). The Am.Ch. male we used once and when he delivered two dogs with undescended testicles he became a much loved pet. The second male (the one half our bloodline) had three litters for us and it was only in his third litter that a pup had testicles that did not descend -- they were visible right above the canal, but were short chorded and never descended so the dog was neutered by the person who owns him (and was sold on that basis). As wonderful as thedog's pedigree is we elected not to use him ever again.

The only way to beat this huge problem in the breed is to do your level best to breed away from the strong disposition in the breed world wide, know your genetics, and make hard decisions about what you will use as breeding stock and what you will not.

Lanny Morry

www.avaloniawhippets.com

 

[GotWhippet?]

I know of retained testicles from English lines including the line you have there in Canada. I know of American lines with retained testicles. Also Europe/Scandinavian lines that have the trait. I can't offer any advice as to getting a line that is totally free of this inherited trait because I don't know any that is 100% guaranteed free.

My bitch had 4 boys in her last litter and all where entire but I am not foolish to believe that the lines I have are free from this trait and I know that the chances of a retained testicle croping up in the future is relatively high.

 

[stonegrace]

Thanks Lanny for the great information, i will download the article and info you have given a link to. Thanks for your advice.

At what age are you saying they are retained?

They are 4 months old now so they should well and truely have 2 by now. 2 out of 4 boys have 1 testicle retained. Its not normally an issue in these lines, however the mating that produced these pups was a complete outcross sire. I am not sure if there is a problem in the sires lines or not, i doubt it as he is from a world renowned breeder. I agree with GotWhippet - the problem of retained testicles seems to rear its ugly head regardless of whether its been commonly seen in that breeders lines or not.

 

[Avalonia]

I know of retained testicles from English lines including the line you have there in Canada. I know of American lines with retained testicles. Also Europe/Scandinavian lines that have the trait. I can't offer any advice as to getting a line that is totally free of this inherited trait because I don't know any that is 100% guaranteed free.My bitch had 4 boys in her last litter and all where entire but I am not foolish to believe that the lines I have are free from this trait and I know that the chances of a retained testicle croping up in the future is relatively high.

You are positively right that there is no guarantee, but the first step to clearing a problem, and I am not so naive to believe anyone but a handful of yes really care enough to actively try to rid our lines of the genetic trait, as it is so easy to place whippet pups well since the majority of dogs are sold as pets anyway and will be spayed or neutered, is to eliminate any dog and bitch that throws a monorchid or cryptorchild from the breeding program. Show them, love them, just don't breed from them.

I think a lot of our success came from breeding within the dogs we own and not rushing out to breed to every top winning dog about whom you know positively nothing, from a genetic point of view. Some of the top winning dogs that were shown over here, over there and in Europe turn out to be what I call genetic cesspools for this kind of problem. The more outcrosses there are in a line, the less you know about even the parents or god forbid the grandparents of the chosen sire (AND dam as both dog and bitch lines have to be considered since both have to be carriers to create the problem) the greater are your chances of discovering inherited traits you certainly didn't want to bring in.

We have a considerable kennel of dogs (all our dogs are entire and we have over twenty, only one of whom is a complete outcross whom I will mention in a second) so we have the luxury of choice that I recognize others do not. Unfortunately it is impossible to know everyone's lines, but as an example, the last dog we brought in, in partnership with an American friend whose lines contain ours and our English line, was selected ONLY after our partner travelled a thousand miles to the kennel where he was bred in the USA and examined each and every male in the litter (there were four and they were all entire). His sire had also produced a previous litter and she asked for and received information on the dogs in that litter, and spoke with the individuals who had purchased the dogs, and all the dogs in that litter were entire too. So we purchased him on that basis. He has had one litter so far for our partner and it was entire and we will use him sometime soon ourselves.

A problem such as this has no quick cure and as I say, it is likely it will never be fixed because it is pretty low on the agenda of most people who get into the breed since no health problems result from this predisposition and therefore people don't consider it a cause for worry. Many simply accept it as the cost of raising whippets. But for those of us for whom this matters it all comes down to knowing the male and female dogs you bring in, which means you must know the status of their siblings AND of the parents of those dogs and whether they came from litters where the dogs were entire as well. A couple of generations of entire dogs on both sides of a pedigree will greatly increase the chance that subsequent litters are entire.

Lanny

 

[jok]

Thank you Lanny for that very good link. It should be easy enough to understand for the majority of people.

What's particularly of note is you so often hear people say, "that problem has come from the dogs side", for example, when in fact if it shows up, it has come from BOTH sides.

 

[Avalonia]

Thank you Lanny for that very good link. It should be easy enough to understand for the majority of people.
What's particularly of note is you so often hear people say, "that problem has come from the dogs side", for example, when in fact if it shows up, it has come from BOTH sides.

Thanks. For those who don't want to read the entire link and the medical details including photos about surgery for retained testicles etc. the information on inheritance of the genes for cryptorchidism is section 10. Scroll down the page to that section and all you ever need to know about genetic inheritance for this problem is there. And as the section makes clear, both dog and bitch carry the genes that produce these dogs so finding dogs that have produced a number of litters where every dog is entire, is particularly important to clear the breed of this problem. But one must also address the dam, and thus bitches who are used in breeding programs should come from litters where, at a minimum if you cannot trace history back past the current generation, all the males in the litter are entire.

In the cases we had, and we have had so few as I noted because of our obsession with this problem in the breed, all the dogs, in cluding the sire and dam, and the pups in the litters in question were spayed and neutered and therefore never used again.

My recomendation for those starting out is to consider when you are looking at pups, only acquiring one of those pups - male or female - from a litter where all the males are visibly entire. And ask questions about Dad's past litters, and Mom's too if they have been bred before so you can determine whether you have dogs that are carriers though it did not manifest in the current litter.

Enough said.

Now I am going to prowl the internet and see if I can find some South Yorkshire results. I was planning to come over for Driffield and South Yorkshire this year, but due to the sudden death of my Mom and matters related to her death, I have had to postpone till either later this year, or perhaps I shall come back from Crufts next year instead.

Lanny

Lanny

 

[moonlake]

Thank you Lanny for that very good link. It should be easy enough to understand for the majority of people.
What's particularly of note is you so often hear people say, "that problem has come from the dogs side", for example, when in fact if it shows up, it has come from BOTH sides.

Thanks. For those who don't want to read the entire link and the medical details including photos about surgery for retained testicles etc. the information on inheritance of the genes for cryptorchidism is section 10. Scroll down the page to that section and all you ever need to know about genetic inheritance for this problem is there. And as the section makes clear, both dog and bitch carry the genes that produce these dogs so finding dogs that have produced a number of litters where every dog is entire, is particularly important to clear the breed of this problem. But one must also address the dam, and thus bitches who are used in breeding programs should come from litters where, at a minimum if you cannot trace history back past the current generation, all the males in the litter are entire.

In the cases we had, and we have had so few as I noted because of our obsession with this problem in the breed, all the dogs, in cluding the sire and dam, and the pups in the litters in question were spayed and neutered and therefore never used again.

My recomendation for those starting out is to consider when you are looking at pups, only acquiring one of those pups - male or female - from a litter where all the males are visibly entire. And ask questions about Dad's past litters, and Mom's too if they have been bred before so you can determine whether you have dogs that are carriers though it did not manifest in the current litter.

Enough said.

Now I am going to prowl the internet and see if I can find some South Yorkshire results. I was planning to come over for Driffield and South Yorkshire this year, but due to the sudden death of my Mom and matters related to her death, I have had to postpone till either later this year, or perhaps I shall come back from Crufts next year instead.

Lanny

Lanny

That is really good advice, Lanny. I am always surprised by people buying bitches who don't bother to ask if the siblings are entire,l et alone the breeding history of the parents. And I have also had difficulty getting a straight answer from someone who used one of my dogs, proving him but not telling me how the pups ended up. So that was a worthless proof for me.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[liza]

Thank you Lanny for that very good link. It should be easy enough to understand for the majority of people.
What's particularly of note is you so often hear people say, "that problem has come from the dogs side", for example, when in fact if it shows up, it has come from BOTH sides.

Thanks. For those who don't want to read the entire link and the medical details including photos about surgery for retained testicles etc. the information on inheritance of the genes for cryptorchidism is section 10. Scroll down the page to that section and all you ever need to know about genetic inheritance for this problem is there. And as the section makes clear, both dog and bitch carry the genes that produce these dogs so finding dogs that have produced a number of litters where every dog is entire, is particularly important to clear the breed of this problem. But one must also address the dam, and thus bitches who are used in breeding programs should come from litters where, at a minimum if you cannot trace history back past the current generation, all the males in the litter are entire.

In the cases we had, and we have had so few as I noted because of our obsession with this problem in the breed, all the dogs, in cluding the sire and dam, and the pups in the litters in question were spayed and neutered and therefore never used again.

My recomendation for those starting out is to consider when you are looking at pups, only acquiring one of those pups - male or female - from a litter where all the males are visibly entire. And ask questions about Dad's past litters, and Mom's too if they have been bred before so you can determine whether you have dogs that are carriers though it did not manifest in the current litter.

Enough said.

Now I am going to prowl the internet and see if I can find some South Yorkshire results. I was planning to come over for Driffield and South Yorkshire this year, but due to the sudden death of my Mom and matters related to her death, I have had to postpone till either later this year, or perhaps I shall come back from Crufts next year instead.

Lanny

Lanny

That is really good advice, Lanny. I am always surprised by people buying bitches who don't bother to ask if the siblings are entire,l et alone the breeding history of the parents. And I have also had difficulty getting a straight answer from someone who used one of my dogs, proving him but not telling me how the pups ended up. So that was a worthless proof for me.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

in my last litter i had 5 dog puppies line bred 4 of the dog puppies had their testicles by the time they were 8 weeks old except one dog pup i kept him back until he was 9 months still only one testicle so i found him a pet home and told them about he's testicle problem they had him about three months by this time he was a year old so they were going to have him casterated they took him to the vets and he had both testicles down but they still had him done as they only wanted him as a pet so in the future i wont be in no hurry to rehome a dog with just one testicle as in my exsperence they can drop

i have just had two litters with 6 boys in total all have testicles both matings were outcrosses