Reward Based Training - are there pitfalls?

[DixD]

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I ask this because one of the most important aspects can be timing, eg., watching out for micro signals and.making sure you reward the wanted behaviour. You really want to reward your dog for NOT barking at the dog passing by, not for barking and then shutting up, which I see quite a lot of. How easy do you think it is for owners, who perhaps know little about the theory, to carry out successfully? It is a questionthat has always intrigued me...

The other thing that I sort of wonder about is, if the owner/handler controls access to food, toys and other rewards, important to dogs, is that not a form of benevolent dominance?

 

[JoanneF]

Good question. I think you are right, that timing is key, and as another fan of the clicker I recommend to people that they practise their timing by watching a tv show and clicking every time a certain word is used. I also think it's a good idea to occasionally have sessions with a professional trainer (on the assumption that the trainer is a good one), or to record on video, to identify timing errors etc.

And - to add into the mix - I think people sometimes confuse reward with bribe. Or maybe there are just a lot of dogs around here called biscuit.

And, language specifics. Down to me means lie down but Mr F uses it for get down (grrr). And there are other examples.

But I also think dogs are pretty good at differentiating between handlers. Although Mr F can be a bit sloppy, I can get decent responses because Timber knows my expectations. I don't know if that answers anything you have asked, it was a stream of consciousness ...

 

[DixD]

@JoanneF. I had to laugh, when I read your post. The big black lab I have trouble with in the park that’s always trying to dominate Hugo appeared today. Its owner evidently decided he’d better try and get it back because I’ve said I’ll report it for being out of control, so, as well as waggling his stick, he yelled “Biscuit!” He didn’t get his own dog straight away, but Hugo rushed up and sat at his feet. I think he was very surprised!

I think you’re right about dogs being able to differentiate. They’re a lot smarter than we give them credit for!

 

[JudyN]

I tend to focus on the emotion behind the behaviour, rather than the behaviour itself, and then getting your timing wrong and rewarding the wrong thing isn't such an issue. So when Jasper barked and lunged at other dogs, I'd give him a treat whenever we saw another dog, regardless of how he was behaving. Eventually, his response was 'Mum, look, there's a dog - do I get a treat?' Even if he saw the dog, barked, and looked at me for the treat I'd take that, because it isn't a bark caused by not liking the other dog.

Having said that, it's amazing the number of people who have trained him to pester them. The ones where even after they've said 'All gone' and he throws a paw at them, give him another treat. Fortunately he doesn't generalise, and he knows exactly how much pester power he can use on each person. I don't worry about it any more - I have pointed out to them why he's persisting but they don't change... because 'Oh, but he has such lovely eyes...'

For reasons mentioned in another thread, I steer clear of the term 'dominance'. I prefer 'team leader' and yes, being the one able to open the packet of dog food helps there. But it's just not that simple - me being in control of the food doesn't equate to control of the sofa, toys, or whatever... and certainly doesn't equate to control of the food once I've actually given it to him.

 

[JoanneF]

and certainly doesn't equate to control of the food once I've actually given it to him.

Indeed. A walker I bump into was telling me he has gone right off Monty Don after reading his autobiography where he says he takes his dog's bowl away while the dog is eating to show he is the ”leader”. Leaders don't steal your dinner money, it's bullies who do that!

 

[DixD]

I wondered about the “benevolent dominance” thing more from the dog’s point of view. Although a bit of it appears to be superstition, ie., if I’m not in a certain place I might not get my dinner”, my little dog gets very worried at feeding time, and goes into his crate and lies down. When you call him, he comes out very carefully and won’t take his food, until I say “take it”. I’ve never taken his food away, but he’s evidently worried and deferential. He’s does like his food, he’s not a fussy eater, or anything. Hugo, on the other hand, hangs around the kitchen door. As he doesn’t cause a problem, I let him, because I’m a big softy...

 

[JoanneF]

won’t take his food, until I say “take it”

Have you had him since a pup or was he a rescue? But I think there is comfort in the predictability of habit. We have a game that has to be played in the morning before our first walk.

 

[DixD]

Came as a tiny wee puppy, but he’s the one who picked up the idea that he got treated for rushing off to widdle on trees, and then going round them, than being treated solely for rushing back, and looks for trees to widdle on now, no matter the distance!

 

[JoanneF]

At least he runs to his crate and not somewhere more inconvenient!

 

[DixD]

Was giving further thought to this last night, and I was thinking, should we not train depending on the dog we have. Because there seems to be a choice of two methods, do we need to use either. Every dog is different. For example, both dogs I have at the moment are very treat and other reward based dogs, so it’s easy. The little lurcher I had before was very high prey drive to the extent that, if she was on the lead and saw something, she froze as if in a trance. I couldn’t get through to her, even to the extent I couldn’t move her head at all, completely rigid. If I dropped my keys, preferably on a hard surface, the movement/noise cut through the trance, and you could see her virtually shake herself out of it, and return to the here and now. I got expelled by a trainer for shouting “No!!”, as she headed straight off the dog walk after a rabbit, which shot out from nowhere. It could easily have headed for the main road. I did find out later though that getting the heaveho by this particular trainer was basically a badge of honour.

Either of these control methods would have been enough to end up being berated by R+ purists, but it’s what stopped her hunting head taking over. As a companion and agility dog, she was fantastic, well behaved (unless she saw a tail disappearing into a tunnel or over a dog walk, and would join in somebody else’s run), and loads of fun! And I think we do our dogs a disservice if we don’t tailor our interactions with them to their individual needs.

 

[JoanneF]

I agree completely - we work with the dog we have, and it's actually the dog that determines what, for him, is reward and "punishment" (speaking in operant conditioning language. And we actually advocate P- regularly - your puppy nips so you remove (-) yourself (as the source of his fun) for a few moments by walking out of the room, to teach that teeth on skin equals end of fun.

The one I struggle with in terms of dogs is R-. For a child, it's easy - study hard and get a good grade and as a reward we will remove your household chore duties for a week (R-). The only examples I see in dog training are around the use of things like choke collars - stop pulling and the you will be rewarded by the discomfort being removed. I can't bring myself to see that as a good example.

I think people who understand the model are moving away from the term positive training - because as well as being inaccurate (see my P- example above), P+ is positive too anyway. I see more people using the term "force free" and I think that's a fairer description.

 

[DixD]

Force free sounds a good description, and more what goes on in the animal world. If you watch mares eating bundles of hay, out in the field, for example, there is usually one that has the choicest bunch. I hesitate to use the phrase “lead mare”, and, by invisible body language to us basically, she’ll allow another mare or mares to join her. If another mare attempts it, and she’s not happy, a look is often enough, and she’ll eventually ramp it up to chasing it, if she’s not happy. Funnily enough, maybe it’s got to do with potential nurturing of foals, mares seem to work this bit out fairly quickly, and get down to the serious business of eating, whereas a field of geldings are forever playing ritualised status games. It is quite intriguing. The only time you see real force and power come into play is with stallions at breeding time.

Force free sounds good to me.

 

[Finsky]

For some reason I've not had much success with treat based training, just because my dogs have been very limited with their eager to please for a treat, they've generally not been that food orientated...kind of take it or leave it. So I've forced to use treats more as distraction when the situation calls for it..well, distraction is 'what ever the method' has worked best with my terriers and they've soon learned to read me when I am pleased or not.
'Forced free' in general does sound very good description. I don't think there is description good enough that if really picked and given certain examples, we could not find reason to debate with it.

 

[DixD]

It’s kind of how I got into agility, Finsky. Though, she liked treats, the high reward for my little lurcher was running and chasing, nothing else had a look in, so we made her more of a town dog, ie., walked where there was no real wildlife about, and gave her the stimulation she needed running agility courses. She never got above a Grade 5, unlike our other sighthound, as she used the A-frame as a launch pad, and you needed 2 agility class wins to progress further, but was great in jumping only classes, and we both had lots of fun. I imagine terriers are pretty focussed dogs too, like sighthounds. I think it was the terrier in this dog that made per particularly intense. We thought she was a whirrier, ie., whippet/terrier. Loved her, whatever she was! <3

 

[JudyN]

Yelling 'No!' can work in specific situations with specific dogs. It can also cause sensitive dogs to panic, shut down, and so on. Some salukis & crosses can get upset if you so much as raise an eyebrow at them. This is a problem when owners often can't even tell the difference between a shut-down anxious dog and a dog who is just being stubborn and bloody minded. Hence, when training people to train their dogs, it can be a lot safer to focus on the reward-based 'Don't tell your dog what not to do, but tell it what to do and then reward for doing it' approach.

How dogs will respond to 'No', 'Oi', etc. can also change over time as their relationship with their owners develops - just as I can have a barney with OH and we know it's just a temporary disagreement and within minutes we'll be back to normal.

 

[JoanneF]

I've not had much success with treat based training

Just to be nit-picky, reward doesn't have to be treats. It can be the reward of praise, release to chase, a game of tug, a ball - it's like I said, the dog is the one who determines what is rewarding and what is aversive.

And - I wrote the following paragraph and re-reading it makes it look like I am having a go at you @Finsky, I promise that isn't the case, it's just a commentary on training methods in general

I've said before but in my view, getting your dog to do something you want involves convincing him that doing what you ask is really, really worthwhile for him. In old fashioned, punitive training (in the true sense rather than the Operant Conditioning sense) might have meant the dog does what we say to avoid being smacked, shocked, jerked or whatever (certain tv personalities come to mind). But I would far rather have a dog who complied because he was glad to, not because of fearing the consequences of failing to comply. @JudyN has a lovely video example of a shut down collie, scared to do anything for fear of doing the wrong thing. Does it work in terms of compliance? Well, yes, short term at least. But a lot of dogs will push through the pain, and the punishment has to become more and more severe, whereas reward based training has continuing benefits.

 

[DixD]

@JudyN. Yes, agree, my poor wee Toy dog would be quite worried about me yelling “No!”. Maybe, it’s because he’s bred to be a companion dog, he’s always listening our for his name. It seems enough to check him, ie., a sort of “heads up, command coming”, followed by a command like “come”. Mind you, to my knowledge, he’s never run off after deer baying like a pack of bloodthirsty hounds!

 

[JudyN]

@JudyN has a lovely video example of a shut down collie, scared to do anything for fear of doing the wrong thing. Does it work in terms of compliance? Well, yes, short term at least. But a lot of dogs will push through the pain, and the punishment has to become more and more severe, whereas reward based training has continuing benefits.

Here you go:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154814833717001

This is quite an extreme example - how can anyone think the shut-down collie is something to be aspired to? But sadly, some do.

 

[DixD]

Now, here’s an interesting thing, for me anyway. I find myself explaining or putting in “inverted” commas things I think might not be politically correct in the dog training world. I put “lead mare” in inverted commas, as “lead anything” seems frowned upon, I edited my post to clarify what “check” I meant with regard to name, as I could hear a wee R+ voice going “you shouldn’t use your dog’s name in a negative way”. I also didn’t feel comfortable mentioning the key dropping. So, for me personally, but I’m not a dog, real R+ devotees can be quite intimidating.

 

[JudyN]

So, for me personally, but I’m not a dog, real R+ devotees can be quite intimidating.

I'm quite possibly guilty as charged I do tend to be a bit evangelical, just because with my particular dog, reward-based training was the key to everything. And this was a dog who, when he was still young enough to not be meant to go upstairs, would sometimes get in my face and threaten me if I just put my pen down while working, as he thought I might be about to go upstairs for a wee. So a dog who could easily be seen as 'trying to be alpha', thought he was above me in the pecking order, and so on. It's highly likely that if I'd followed Cesar Milan's methods, Jasper would have ended up on a one-way trip to the vet. And with your example of using an interrupter when your dog was fixated on a deer, I've never found an interrupter that works with J - I tend to wait him out until his brain eventually realises I'm not going to let him off and gets bored just standing there.

So... yeah. It was very stressful when he was young and I'm probably suffering from post-traumatic dog disorder