Reward Based Training - are there pitfalls?

[Finsky]

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Just to be nit-picky, reward doesn't have to be treats. It can be the reward of praise, release to chase, a game of tug, a ball - it's like I said, the dog is the one who determines what is rewarding and what is aversive.

And - I wrote the following paragraph and re-reading it makes it look like I am having a go at you @Finsky, I promise that isn't the case, it's just a commentary on training methods in general

I've said before but in my view, getting your dog to do something you want involves convincing him that doing what you ask is really, really worthwhile for him. In old fashioned, punitive training (in the true sense rather than the Operant Conditioning sense) might have meant the dog does what we say to avoid being smacked, shocked, jerked or whatever (certain tv personalities come to mind). But I would far rather have a dog who complied because he was glad to, not because of fearing the consequences of failing to comply. @JudyN has a lovely video example of a shut down collie, scared to do anything for fear of doing the wrong thing. Does it work in terms of compliance? Well, yes, short term at least. But a lot of dogs will push through the pain, and the punishment has to become more and more severe, whereas reward based training has continuing benefits.

Oh don't worry....I didn't notice any hint or even thought you were 'having a go' at me...not at all. I do like to have good natter over things

 

[DixD]

I wasn’t meaning you, JudyN. I’ve just seen REAL evangelicals (good word) in action, and I am astounded how tribal they can be. I watched a group of them basically verbally abuse a young girl off a forum for mentioning Cesar Milan, no mercy shown to the poster at all. I did inform the moderator, I think it was an agility forum. I also had a run in with another group, for asking a simple question that wasn’t liked. That was another torrent of abuse, and the moderator refused to intervene, so I assume was one of the bunch. I deleted all my posts, but someone dug them out of a cache somewhere, posted them up, and off they went on a verbally abusive binge again. I just couldn’t figure out their inability to see how abusive they were towards fellow human beings. It’s left me with a real antipathy towards R+ zealots, and it is good to hear from JoanneF that “force free training” is now the description. Perhaps, it won’t be so divisive.

I think the issue with the name reward based training is tgat it suggests that any other form of training is not reward based, which is not the case, but suggests it is so.

 

[Finsky]

@JudyN. Yes, agree, my poor wee Toy dog would be quite worried about me yelling “No!”. Maybe, it’s because he’s bred to be a companion dog, he’s always listening our for his name. It seems enough to check him, ie., a sort of “heads up, command coming”, followed by a command like “come”. Mind you, to my knowledge, he’s never run off after deer baying like a pack of bloodthirsty hounds!

It is so interesting to read how different our dogs are in character and how they comprehend with our ways of sending messages.
I've saved loud 'NO' for very desperate moments when nothing else does get through my girls hard heads and cloth ears They don't fear me or the command...but have learned that if I have to result using that, I am not pleased. It will stop them doing what ever they were up to that moment for long enough to take appropriate action to correct their behaviour or situation by other means. If nothing else follow that 'NO'..they basically look at me with 'what was that all about?' and carry on like nothing never happened.
Sensitivity is not something terriers tend to suffer with unless they've been really treated badly.

 

[JoanneF]

I think some of it is even just the language. Positive implies something good (and it isn't necessarily) and punishment carries a meaning that it needn't have.

But I have seen some hideous footage of Cesar Milan that didn't make the tv shows.

 

[DixD]

What is worrying is there appears to be no regulation in dog training, anyone can set up, and may not understand what they actually think they are training. Best option is to inform yourself the best you can, it seems to me, I think it’s much the same for dog behaviourists, basically anyone can advertise. The only behaviourist I’d go to is one with an animal behaviour degree, and I think they are few and far between,

 

[JoanneF]

Absolutely. My 92 year old neighbour, who has never owned a dog in her life, could set up as either a behaviours or trainer and it's quite hard for new owners I think - when someone says they know what they are doing, they have seldom got the experience to challenge it. It definitely needs more stringent control.

 

[JudyN]

I’ve just seen REAL evangelicals (good word) in action, and I am astounded how tribal they can be.

I've seen similar with evangelical raw dog feeders in a FB group. All kibbles are carcinogens, there's no such thing as a 'better quality' kibble, and the only reason vets recommend kibble (and vaccines) is that they actively want our dogs to get ill so they can charge us to treat them. One poor newbie asked if when she fed eggs they should be raw or cooked and the response was pretty much 'Which bit of "raw" don't you understand?' I didn't stay long...

 

[DixD]

Absolutely. My 92 year old neighbour, who has never owned a dog in her life, could set up as either a behaviours or trainer and it's quite hard for new owners I think - when someone says they know what they are doing, they have seldom got the experience to challenge it. It definitely needs more stringent control.

yes, I’m amazed. I know two people who’ve had “trainers/behaviourists” in, who charged a lot of money. I know that one of them basically charged a fair amount (plus mileage) for the exact advice that I’d given for free. It was hardly a challenging problem. But, maybe people take more notice if they pay for it. As a matter of nosiness, I looked up the behaviourist, who had completed level one of a training programme emanating from California, which was pretty basic.

The other trainer I’m not sure what happened but the wee dog seems pretty much the same.

 

[DixD]

@JudyN. I know... it can be nasty out there!

 

[JudyN]

Thinking about the original question, it's also possible to accidentally train the required behaviour, then get the required behaviour at the wrong time. So I have a dog who will helpfully bring me socks, hats, gloves, hankies, etc. when they were exactly where they were meant to be in the first place. And a dog who hangs around in the kitchen just because he wants to be asked to leave so he'll get a reward. He accidentally left the kitchen today not realising I was about to cook, and once I'd shut the stairgate he just stood there looking over it at me, refusing to go and settle down, till I'd rewarded him for telepathically leaving the kitchen when I wanted him to.

Oh, and I can't do a knee exercise that involves doing a lunge forward and extending my arm/hand, because he keeps doing a palm touch with his nose and expecting his reward!

 

[JoanneF]

Oh yes - T will stop 100m behind me and not move until I whistle, so he can recall and be rewarded.

Who is training whom?

 

[Finsky]

Thinking about the original question, it's also possible to accidentally train the required behaviour, then get the required behaviour at the wrong time. So I have a dog who will helpfully bring me socks, hats, gloves, hankies, etc. when they were exactly where they were meant to be in the first place. And a dog who hangs around in the kitchen just because he wants to be asked to leave so he'll get a reward. He accidentally left the kitchen today not realising I was about to cook, and once I'd shut the stairgate he just stood there looking over it at me, refusing to go and settle down, till I'd rewarded him for telepathically leaving the kitchen when I wanted him to.

Oh, and I can't do a knee exercise that involves doing a lunge forward and extending my arm/hand, because he keeps doing a palm touch with his nose and expecting his reward!

I have recently discovered that I have trained my pup to do a trick!?
When asking her to give me the tennis ball...she comes to me with the ball in its mouth, but instead of placing it on my waiting palm, she touches the palm with her nose and then places her left paw on it..and she keeps standing like that unless I try to take the ball off. And she is consistent with her 'trick', it has become her 'norm' now..or what ever that behaviour is ..

 

[Finsky]

I have recently discovered that I have trained my pup to do a trick!?
When asking her to give me the tennis ball...she comes to me with the ball in its mouth, but instead of placing it on my waiting palm, she touches the palm with her nose and then places her left paw on it..and she keeps standing like that unless I try to take the ball off. And she is consistent with her 'trick', it has become her 'norm' now..or what ever that behaviour is ..

Hmm...actually...thinking about it, I'm starting to feel little guilty now taking credit for 'teaching' her something when it is quite likely that pup has used her own brain and come up with it all by herself. After all I do encourage my girls to figure things out in their own time and terriers are known being independent thinkers.
What ever...it is a 'achievement' and I am now one very proud 'mum' because of her little party trick