Robin is in trouble with dog owners!

[Jan Woodhall]

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Hi, I'm not too sure what I have done/not done to enable this behaviour but I need to resolve it pronto, I am sure the dog owners will have me arrested for having a 'dangerous dog!'

Robin is socially starved! He has been cooped up because of Covid, then too excited to be let off the lead to play with others and area not suitable anyway. Then fears for his growth plates getting damaged because he is so exhuberant - blah, blah.

So I have ended up with a lovely well behaved (when it suits him!) pup that is very bouncy, and is constantly dragging me (or bouncing me!) up to other dogs - including those on the other side of the road and not looking before he crosses, despite knowing to look left and to look right (well at least sit at the kerb!) . I get dog owners turning round in their tracks when they see us approaching! Constantly! This is dreadful and I am heartbroken, but I truly don't blame them, he is a menace he will sit (sometimes and for a short while ) but often he just drops down in "puppy, I want to play" mode and then springs full force at the dog, puppy, owner, whatever! He literally pulls me off my feet and there is not a jack diddly squat thing I can do about it, he is food oriented ONLY when there is nothing else exciting to do.

I have a harness on him and wonder if that is the right thing for him? How on earth can I stop this normal puppy behaviour from being so dam dangerous for everyone.

Thanks.

 

[Hemlock]

First of all get a harness with a lead attachment at the chest and another by the neck. Use two leads or a double-ended lead, so one on each attachment. Then hold the lead the way horse riders hold their reins - your thumb towards you, back of your hand uppermost. This gives you an amazing amount of strength, far more than if you hold the lead palm up.

Then pick your exercise routes so that you are unlikely to meet other dogs. You are taller and can see further. If you see a dog approaching, don't wait for your pup to kick off - leave! It is perfectly okay to hide between parked vehicles, to leave a footpath for a short distance, to turn around and move away with confident strides.

Do scent-trailing games at home. Hire a well-fenced field every now and then, put up some small obstacles, nothing fancy, and guide him around and through them. Cardboard boxes are amazingly versatile.

Others will be along with more help - JudyN has had so much practice when Jas was young and flighty, and she can add to this, and we have a few more members who have been there and done that. Chin up - it does get better.

 

[JacksDad]

So I have ended up with a lovely well behaved (when it suits him!) pup that is very bouncy, and is constantly dragging me (or bouncing me!) up to other dogs - including those on the other side of the road and not looking before he crosses, despite knowing to look left and to look right (well at least sit at the kerb!) . ...... He literally pulls me off my feet and there is not a jack diddly squat thing I can do about it, he is food oriented ONLY when there is nothing else exciting to do.

Actually there is.

Step 1 - Do not put you self and your dog into situations he will behave this way. EVERY TIME he practices it, he gets better at it. He repeats the behavior because it is has been reinforced. take him places where there is least likely to be other dogs until he has some skills in place.

Step 2 - Train an alternate behavior that is SUPER EASY. Start in zero distraction places. make sure you can get a reliable performance of what you are training. Then add in distraction. start with least likely to be distracting, then increase the distraction level a little at a time as your dog's skills improve.

Step 3 - be generous. There is actually no rule that says your dog only gets one treat for performing whatever you just asked of them. There are many ways to reinforce. one sit gets 5 treats. performing X for 30 seconds gets 1 treat every 5 seconds until 30 is reached and so on. there are entire text books on this.

I tend to keep it simple and use 1 behavior earns 5 treats given one at a time fairly fast, when I need something more.

Step 4 - use really, really, really good food treats. do not skimp. pay with "platinum" not "lead". think of most store bought treats to most dogs as "lead" and the real chicken, steak, cheese is "platinum". However, bottom line is your dog controls what is reinforcing. I have on occasion had dogs turn down hot dog for something I would have thought was a lessor treat.

Step 5 - control distance and duration when you are ready to start training "against" other dogs. The further you are, the more likely you dog can be successful. As your dogs skills improve, reduce the distance. you can also control duration. how long your dog is out in an area other dogs are close.

Your dog isn't responding because you are likely over estimating his level of training for the level of distraction. And his distraction is more reinforcing that you have been to date. Change this and you have a fighting chance.

Train an alternate behavior that is super easy, thus super easy to get reinforced for doing, and the reinforcement is REALLY good and REALLY generous.

This is how I got a Jindo not to hunt the neighborhood cats this last summer, and my latest project...an American bulldog mix to not chase squirrels thus pulling his owner off their feet.

 

[Jan Woodhall]

Actually there is.

Step 1 - Do not put you self and your dog into situations he will behave this way. EVERY TIME he practices it, he gets better at it. He repeats the behavior because it is has been reinforced. take him places where there is least likely to be other dogs until he has some skills in place.

Step 2 - Train an alternate behavior that is SUPER EASY. Start in zero distraction places. make sure you can get a reliable performance of what you are training. Then add in distraction. start with least likely to be distracting, then increase the distraction level a little at a time as your dog's skills improve.

Step 3 - be generous. There is actually no rule that says your dog only gets one treat for performing whatever you just asked of them. There are many ways to reinforce. one sit gets 5 treats. performing X for 30 seconds gets 1 treat every 5 seconds until 30 is reached and so on. there are entire text books on this.

I tend to keep it simple and use 1 behavior earns 5 treats given one at a time fairly fast, when I need something more.

Step 4 - use really, really, really good food treats. do not skimp. pay with "platinum" not "lead". think of most store bought treats to most dogs as "lead" and the real chicken, steak, cheese is "platinum". However, bottom line is your dog controls what is reinforcing. I have on occasion had dogs turn down hot dog for something I would have thought was a lessor treat.

Step 5 - control distance and duration when you are ready to start training "against" other dogs. The further you are, the more likely you dog can be successful. As your dogs skills improve, reduce the distance. you can also control duration. how long your dog is out in an area other dogs are close.

Your dog isn't responding because you are likely over estimating his level of training for the level of distraction. And his distraction is more reinforcing that you have been to date. Change this and you have a fighting chance.

Train an alternate behavior that is super easy, thus super easy to get reinforced for doing, and the reinforcement is REALLY good and REALLY generous.

This is how I got a Jindo not to hunt the neighborhood cats this last summer, and my latest project...an American bulldog mix to not chase squirrels thus pulling his owner off their feet.

 

[Jan Woodhall]

Thanks Jacksdad and Hemlock. I am trying so hard to be a good dog guardian, but sometimes cannot see the wood for the trees.

I am clearly putting too much pressure on him to behave. He is desperate for interaction with other dogs, he has had none since he came to me for various reasons, lock down, not being able to source a dog who would not get squashed by his paw, or who would not cause damage to my pup.

There are NO places I can go that I will not meet another dog other than at a field I have to drive to. We have managed three times to get out, and he had a fantastic time I could see him smiling! BUT he has since decided that going in the car is NOT a good thing again, so am currently working on this, getting his confidence up again and then we can go various places.

He has the best treats he loves, and we are now settled on fresh cooked chicken breast and sausages. BUT again, these only work when he has his attention on me anyway!

So the answer for me then, go back to stage ONE! REPEAT. REPEAT, REPEAT until it becomes second nature. SL~OWLY introduce other dogs into equation, and wear a bouncy suit to protect me when it goes wrong! LOL

Thanks for the support, and actually glad that I was not TOO far off the mark with knowing what I should do!

 

[Tinytom]

Whereabouts in the country are you Jan ...

 

[JudyN]

It might be worth you signing up to Facebook and looking for local dog walking groups - I often see people asking if anyone has a dog who could be compatible with theirs and would like to walk together. But if you did find someone, though Robin might get the companion he craves, it also means he'll have an opportunity to practise his wild behaviour... So I'm not sure if this is the best route.

I can't remember if I've mentioned the books Walking Ollie and Along Came Dylan by Stephen Foster. They are about salukis, but their behaviour was similar, and the books are hilarious. They might give you some comfort that you're not the only one, and also a good laugh. Just don't regard them as 'how to' books

I had the advantage with Jasper that he wasn't a puller - his meltdowns were normally directed at me, and even if he spotted someone who he knew handed out treats, I could stand still and hang on to him. I just couldn't walk towards the treat fairy and stay in control, as then he had momentum on his side. I used to think I must be very strong till my friend's tiny terrier nearly pulled me over

By the way - you mention Robin sitting at the kerb - be aware that for some sighthounds, sitting is an uncomfortable position, and it doesn't come naturally. It's just possible that this could increase Robin's arousal levels, so that when you then ask him to cross the road, he's more likely to launch himself like a missile.

 

[JoanneF]

There are NO places I can go that I will not meet another dog

What about changing your walking time?

 

[Ari_RR]

If there are no places nearby where you are not likely to encounter other dogs - perhaps try walking at different time?
Waking up and getting out before sunrise, for example, could be a pain - but having a great walk without drama may be worthwhile.

 

[Hemlock]

And.....this isn't for ever! Sometimes a particular training hiccup gets us so fraught that we think it will always be like that. But pups have to grow up in their own time, and when you have your chilled-out adult dog that you have put hours and hours of work into....people will tell you how LUCKY you are to have such a well-behaved dog.

I've said this on other posts but it is worth repeating. When you want to move your dog away from a potential hazard, PUSH don't PULL. Get the dog on the opposite side of the hazard by stepping in front of him, then push with your leg so he goes away from it. Pulling leaves him "all alone" in front of the hazard. Pushing blocks his view and doesn't leave you with a lunging dog. Dogs push each other all the time, so it's a contact they understand and it's much safer for both of you.

 

[Jan Woodhall]

Whereabouts in the country are you Jan ...

 

[Jan Woodhall]

Mid Cornwall, Tinytom.

 

[Tinytom]

Aw a bit too far from us ...have a look on Facebook for walkers near you who may have a similar high energy dog ...

 

[Jan Woodhall]

It might be worth you signing up to Facebook and looking for local dog walking groups - I often see people asking if anyone has a dog who could be compatible with theirs and would like to walk together. But if you did find someone, though Robin might get the companion he craves, it also means he'll have an opportunity to practise his wild behaviour... So I'm not sure if this is the best route.

I can't remember if I've mentioned the books Walking Ollie and Along Came Dylan by Stephen Foster. They are about salukis, but their behaviour was similar, and the books are hilarious. They might give you some comfort that you're not the only one, and also a good laugh. Just don't regard them as 'how to' books

I had the advantage with Jasper that he wasn't a puller - his meltdowns were normally directed at me, and even if he spotted someone who he knew handed out treats, I could stand still and hang on to him. I just couldn't walk towards the treat fairy and stay in control, as then he had momentum on his side. I used to think I must be very strong till my friend's tiny terrier nearly pulled me over

By the way - you mention Robin sitting at the kerb - be aware that for some sighthounds, sitting is an uncomfortable position, and it doesn't come naturally. It's just possible that this could increase Robin's arousal levels, so that when you then ask him to cross the road, he's more likely to launch himself like a missile.

 

[Jan Woodhall]

Great points again JudyN, and no I do not recall the books will have a deco! I did wonder about the sit for Robin, I was getting the strong sensations that he did not enjoy sitting at all! I am trying to find a walking companion, strangely enough, no one can 'find' the time! LOL

There is a field ( well two actually) that hire out for dogs but, again, have to drive there! So quite pointless for me as I have a perfectly good field for the horses, and plenty of space for Robin ONCE he will go back in the car AGAIN!

Oh, well, again great advise from everyone and honestly, it is so needed and helps me feel emotionally stronger knowing there is support for us. So many times I have nearly taken him back, but we have a good relationship and I love him so much it would be awful!

 

[Jan Woodhall]

And.....this isn't for ever! Sometimes a particular training hiccup gets us so fraught that we think it will always be like that. But pups have to grow up in their own time, and when you have your chilled-out adult dog that you have put hours and hours of work into....people will tell you how LUCKY you are to have such a well-behaved dog.

I've said this on other posts but it is worth repeating. When you want to move your dog away from a potential hazard, PUSH don't PULL. Get the dog on the opposite side of the hazard by stepping in front of him, then push with your leg so he goes away from it. Pulling leaves him "all alone" in front of the hazard. Pushing blocks his view and doesn't leave you with a lunging dog. Dogs push each other all the time, so it's a contact they understand and it's much safer for both of you.

 

[Jan Woodhall]

Ooohhhhh! Didn't know that! THANK YOU! will defo give that one a try for sure!

 

[Jan Woodhall]

Just an addage to all this - he IS getting sooooo much better in so many OTHER ways. Did I tell you all that I walked in the cemetry yesterday OFF LEAD! He regularly checked in with me and made sure I was visable to him, so I think that is a good start. He did take off when another dog appeared, but I was able to go to him (he did not want to come obviously!) and put him quietly back on his lead - before getting a mouthfull from the dogs' owner for letting him loose in the Cemetry! LOL - fair dos, bit disrespectful in some folks eyes (Rogin LOVED it!) - ps. been again today

 

[JudyN]

Just an addage to all this - he IS getting sooooo much better in so many OTHER ways. Did I tell you all that I walked in the cemetry yesterday OFF LEAD! He regularly checked in with me and made sure I was visable to him, so I think that is a good start. He did take off when another dog appeared, but I was able to go to him (he did not want to come obviously!) and put him quietly back on his lead

Just as long as he doesn't come back to you with any bones

That's brilliant, and just shows how much progress you've made. And if waiting for you to come to him works better than a recall, then definitely focus on that in your training (as well as the recall). It's not the first time I've heard of a sighthound who won't recall but will stop when asked. If I ask Jasper to wait, he doesn't usually stop straight away, but he does slow down so I can catch up, or wander a few feet more to find something interesting to smell till I get to him.

How's the car training going? Are you at the 'walking up to the door and then walking away again' stage, or 'getting in the car but not going anywhere stage', or so on?

 

[JacksDad]

Thanks Jacksdad and Hemlock. I am trying so hard to be a good dog guardian ...

Clearly, that isn't in question. someone not concerned wouldn't be struggling with what you shared.

but sometimes cannot see the wood for the trees.

Happens to all of us from time to time. when it's our "issue" we are often too close to see the path forward.

He is desperate for interaction with other dogs

Just some food for thought.....

I have met dogs that are truly SO dog social that they literally have a poor quality of life if they can't socially interact with another dog. There are these dogs. BUT I have only met a rare couple.

Many dogs like other dogs, especially young dogs. BUT.... if that is the only outlet, then that is all they know. So they see another dog and "think" play time... boy do I hate claiming to know what a dog is thinking, but I am not sure how else to describe the observation right now.

For these dogs if we show them another way, something else to do, they are just fine. And if we make it fun enough to play with us, and reinforcing enough to play with us, work with us, they often start choosing us over the other dog. we are easier because we are right there.

Not having met your dog, not having evaluated your dog I can't for sure which category your dog falls into. But given how many of those truly need dogs to play with or quality of life goes down dogs I have met (enough to still have fingers on my right hand to count with...so not many) it is worth exploring alternate mental and physical outlets for your pup.

There are NO places I can go that I will not meet another dog other than at a field I have to drive to. We have managed three times to get out, and he had a fantastic time I could see him smiling! BUT he has since decided that going in the car is NOT a good thing again, so am currently working on this, getting his confidence up again and then we can go various places.

He has the best treats he loves, and we are now settled on fresh cooked chicken breast and sausages. BUT again, these only work when he has his attention on me anyway!

You always have other options (Yahoo ) . Distance. if you can't go some place you won't see other dogs, then can you go places that have enough distance that your dog is able to respond to you? Non typical times. Are you able to be flexible in what time your take your pup out for a walk. we humans tend to live similar enough schedules that we "all" seem to walk our dogs at similar time. Mix it up. go at time others are less likely to be walking their dog.

On the treats and responses. how generous are you being? your dog sees another dog, looks at you, you give how many treats? one? then leave your dog with nothing?

Me, in these early stages, I would be my dog looks at another dog and then back to me, Treat, treat, treat, treat, treat. 5 one after the other. Or I might just keep going with small treats while that other dog is still "there". if the other dog doesn't start leaving...I would then move away with my dog and get distance and take a break.

We are NOT stuck with just giving one treat. There are many, many ways to use the food treats to our advantage. what I described is leveraging Matching Law. you making a "lower" value reinforcer easier to get, thus raising it's value to your dog. it is MUCH easier to be next to you, looking at you, getting bit of chicken after chicken after chicken than it is to figure a way out of the leash, run over to the other dog, go through the social rituals etc, etc,.

All this depends though on you being willing to keep the distance your dog needs AND be willing to trust the process and not worry about being "stuck" giving all those treats. done right, you won't.