Hello,
I admit, I'm a bit of an oldtimer. Here a picture of Ch Maid of Barnsley, born in England.
I admit, I'm a bit of an oldtimer. Here a picture of Ch Maid of Barnsley, born in England.
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Rough Coated Whippets
- Thread starter broom
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Another picture of Ch Mucki Wildfang...
I put pictures on "the whippet archives" :Ch Mucki Wildfang, Ch Roderich von Sachsenwald; Primus sagitta, Ch Bahnfrei von der Friedrich Alfred Hütte, Bosko Bielaja.
Rough coated whippets still exist or are they all considered as lurchers?
I put pictures on "the whippet archives" :Ch Mucki Wildfang, Ch Roderich von Sachsenwald; Primus sagitta, Ch Bahnfrei von der Friedrich Alfred Hütte, Bosko Bielaja.
Rough coated whippets still exist or are they all considered as lurchers?
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Mucki Wildfang was sired by Oakroyd Prince who was exported to Germany where he produced at least six litters that I have in my records. I found Oakroyd Prince in the registration records of the Kennel Club when I was there so he was undoubtedly considered purebred at the time of registration, albeit out of racing lines, but his ancestry back beyond his parents who were recorded with his registration is unknown to me as I could not trace the record backwards in the KC records at Clarges Street. I suspect they were unregistered racing stock, though almost certainly purebred.broom said:
Having followed several of his lines forward I see that Oakroyd Prince is directly linked to at least one great German kennel still in operation - vom Kleinen Berg and I find progeny in my pedigree program that shows him directly linked as a multiple generation backwards grandsire of that program right into present days, including a female bred from a vom Kleinen Berg bitch who was bred to one of our Avalonia whippets (Germ.Pol.Ch. Avalonia Jesta Rogue) and produced a litter in Sept. 2002.
In examining the dogs carried forward from Oakroyd Prince in that particular line there is no question that at least in that line bred forward there was no crossing to lurcher type dogs and no question and no suggestion of rough coat in the generations of dogs descended from him along that line. It may have transpired elsewhere as a number of the matings of Oakroyd Prince end fairly quickly in dead ends. Some of those dead ends end with dogs born in early 1939, before the outbreak of the second world war, so it is entirely possible that these were purebred whippets who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the line was lost because of the war. It is also possible some of these lines were cross bred because of war to produce lurcher type hounds. Perhaps we shall never know unless there is someone out there who has photos of dogs from these lines that demonstrate whether or not some of the lines became described as rough.
Lanny Morry
Lanny Morry
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Hi back. I think you have some of your records wrong. Mucki Wildfang was born and registered in Germany on 26 June 1924. The German Whippet Club, was, if nothing, absolutely catholic about registering dogs, and so I believe this record which shows her date of birth and her parentage as Oakroyd Prince x Maid of Barnsley is completely accurate. I can find no evidence that the dam, Maid of Barnsley was rough coated, and photos of her suggest she was not. She may have been bred from unregistered racing lines and pedigree lines with the Kennel Club but looking at her photos I see nothing rough about her. As I mentioned in my earlier note, I do believe dogs bred FORWARD from Oakroyd Prince may have been cross bred in some, but not all the lines.broom said:
I spent a considerable amount of time going through KC records for the period 1890 to 1924 and I am confident that anything I found in those records that lists a purebred whippet that was deemed registerable with the KC was, in fact, at that point, a purebred whippet.
I still think that any rough coating happened after this time, and may have been coincident with the second world war and the difficulty anyone hoping to breed dogs in that time period would have experienced finding an alive, purebred whippet to breed to. I suspect breed vigor has been retained, over the decades, simply by the fact that at least in the UK and Europe, it has not been a sin to outcross to something in the hound line and then come back in, whereas here in North America this breeding for type and vigour would have been scored, frowned on, and reduced to the description of the resultant litters being mongrels. Rough dogs, lurchers, are neither recognized nor prized over here, as good as they may be seen to have been in maintain a certain health and vigor in the 'lurcher type/whippet type'' dogs that resulted. Here a lurcher would be a designer type dog and not a purebreed, and not therefore prized though I know in England lurchers are highly valued and prized and cherished.
Lanny
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[Hi Lanny (and everybody else reading this),
I am impressed by the knowledge still present about the breed in those early years, and I mean it.
As a newcomer i don't want to know everything better, in fact I know nothing about it.
But the black bitch , and it's true, on an old picture of a black dog it's difficult to see the structure of the hair (certainly when the coat is realy hard and rough and not wooly, as it is on the fawn one) was roughair champion in 1924. Doesn't that prove that she was roughaired?
Mucki was roughaired, no discussion possible, so it must come from somewhere...?
I am impressed by the knowledge still present about the breed in those early years, and I mean it.
As a newcomer i don't want to know everything better, in fact I know nothing about it.
But the black bitch , and it's true, on an old picture of a black dog it's difficult to see the structure of the hair (certainly when the coat is realy hard and rough and not wooly, as it is on the fawn one) was roughair champion in 1924. Doesn't that prove that she was roughaired?
Mucki was roughaired, no discussion possible, so it must come from somewhere...?
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broom said:
Hi back. I cannot see that in the photo though I have downloaded and tried to blow it up to see it, but despite that I think there is another possibility to explain the coat and it is this.
The difference in conditions in which whippets were kept back in the 1920s versus today is stark. Today whippets are housepets, living in close keeping with their owners in centrally heated homes with comforts unheard of for the early dogs.
In the early days dogs were routinely kept outdoors year round, and their housing was usually some sort of small unheated sheds with straw if they were lucky for bedding. While that is liveable and comfortable during the warmer months, the situation is starkly different where a dog goes through months of cold, sometimes bitter cold winter weather in those circumstances. Then the body's protective instincts kick in and the dog grows more coat for warmth to take them through that cold. Uncertain or poor nutrition can also have an impact on coat.
Within the past decade I actually saw a dog exported to the USA from Europe whom I willl not name, but who originated from top English bloodlines, who was raised on the continent in outdoor kennels in an area where winters are severe with significant snow and prolonged cold. When he arrived at his new home he had the worse coat anyone had ever seen. It was both long and dull looking and completely untypical of any whippet coat. He could certainly have been called rough-coated at that point.
Within six months of moving to America and becoming a house and bed dog with his owner, his coat transformed astoundingly. When I saw him the following year I knew it was the same dog but I could not believe the difference love and attention and warmth made in his coat (to say nothing of his spunk, spirit and personality). It was a short, typical, glistening whippet coat and everything we expect to see today in a well cared for whippet.
Perhaps that, rather than crossing out to something else, is a more likely alternative explanation for the rough appearance that you see in the coat of the dog in the photo.
Lanny
Absolutely right, we can not discuss if the picture is not clear. But fact stays that the "Maid of Barnsley", mother of "Mucki Wildfang" was maid "rauhaar champion" in Germany in 1924!
Here two other pictures of roughhaired descendants of "Oakroyd Prince". See the pedigrees on "The whippet Archives".
Here you're absolutely right : it is no proof that he carried the roughair-factor!
The darker "Crischa von der Friedrich Albert Hütte" (see also the picrure of her brother "Bahnfrei" on TWA and in the next post ...the almost white "Bosko Bielaja".
Here two other pictures of roughhaired descendants of "Oakroyd Prince". See the pedigrees on "The whippet Archives".
Here you're absolutely right : it is no proof that he carried the roughair-factor!
The darker "Crischa von der Friedrich Albert Hütte" (see also the picrure of her brother "Bahnfrei" on TWA and in the next post ...the almost white "Bosko Bielaja".
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Those ones definitely look cross bred don't they? I agree with you there.
Are they actually recorded in any legitimate breed registry as registered whippets or are they unregistered dogs?
Lanny
Are they actually recorded in any legitimate breed registry as registered whippets or are they unregistered dogs?
Lanny
broom said:
Joining this discussion a bit late but am interested to know what the English name of Oakroyd Prince was before he was exported to Germany - presumably you know, Lanny if you researched him at the Kennel Club? Also, what was the English name of Maid of Barnsley (no KC registered bitchof that name)?Avalonia said:
If these dogs were indeed registered in England, I can trace every known ancestor for you as my db includes every registration from 1890. However, Lanny, it is wrong to suppose they were necessarily pure bred - even in the 1960s the KC were registering dogs of unknown parentage.
I doubt that the UK Whippet Club would have accepted registration of rough coated whippets since the club was formed to "promote true type" which broken coats certainly are not and someone would have certainly raised an objection.
Gay
www.moonlake.co.uk
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Hi Gay, glad you stepped in as I know you have a program that provides information on everything KC registered all the way back. My pedigree program which has 30,800 entries, was built from the ground up using the Mormon Church Genaeology program for people, which I adapted and converted to dogs after an older pedigree program could no longer be used because it was based on ancient versions of windows and proved to be completely inadaptable. As such it is flexible to the degree I can trace descendants or ancestors, but for whatever reason I cannot do some logical sorting functions -- such as sorting the entries for dogs as for instance by year of birth, or by notes I have transcribed into a note section on various dogs. I also regret the fact that this program cannot be adapted to give me coi -- which my old pedigree program could -- but I can do relationship calculations that can tell me the first 100 common relatives between any two dogs that have been bred and produced a litter. And that shows me that even those who champion breeding as diversely as possible cannot avoid having, at a minimum, 100 relations in common over a 20 or 30 year period.
Virtually all of the information I have inputted has come from first hand collecting pedigrees from every possible source from show catalogues and handwritten pedigree files from old time breeders and collectors of this information in Britain, Canada, the US and Germany, and from perusing breed records, as I did at the Kennel Club . Unfortunately my visit to the KC where I managed to read and hand transcribe all the records in the KC Journals from 1890 through to 1923 was pre laptop and pre digital camera when it would have been so easy to record all information in a permanent form for inclusion in my program thereafter. As a result I made decisions about what information I would transcribe for my records, and included all dogs I considered could be clearly linked directly to dogs I believed were show lines and as such part of a continuing bloodline that produced lines that carried on through the years, and decades and down to the present.
I did not transcribe records of dogs I thought were racing lines, many of whom had parents with racing names whose names had not occurred in my examination of records from years previous to the birth of their pups. As a consequence I left out dogs of unknown or uncertain pedigree based on my inability to find their parents in the records I had transcribed. I am afraid this arbitrary judgement was a mistake and left off names I should have recorded but did not.
My route back to the Oakroyd dogs in my program comes via taking German lines backwards from the present looking to see when those dogs make the leap from England to the continent. The records of the German whippet club have been excellently presented most recently on the Whippet Archives, and it is possible to take a significant number of German whippets back to the earliest times of the breed with parentage and dates of birth of all provided. While the Whippet Archives does contain mistakes -- and I have found myself correcting records of dogs in a number of instances where I have paper (such as a Whippet Club catalogue or whatever) that sets out the correct information -- it is a very useful resource for adding to the information on the evolution of the whippet world wide.
So I honestly cannot connect the Oakroyd dogs bck to a dog originally listed with a different name in KC records, that was thereafter sold abroad. Perhaps you can?
Interestingly, in the course of my commenting on this current thread, I remembered seeing some of the photos somewhere else that have been used to demonstrate the rough coated whippet and then I realized where. If you follow the link set out below you will see that the photos of some of these dogs is an important part of the rationalization being used by the long-haired whippet people in the US to promote their case, not just for long-haired dogs with a certain body type similar to the whippet (but bigger), and to create other designer breeds too, including, in this particular case, something called the Appalachian Greyhound.
Read on:
http://www.longhairedwhippet.com/appalachi...y_claybrook.htm
On a final note Gay, can you tell me, satisfy my curiosity -- is your pedigree program based solely or primarily only on KC registrations or is it world wide? And how big is your data base? It sounds like the most valuable of all possible resources and I am so envious!
Lanny
Virtually all of the information I have inputted has come from first hand collecting pedigrees from every possible source from show catalogues and handwritten pedigree files from old time breeders and collectors of this information in Britain, Canada, the US and Germany, and from perusing breed records, as I did at the Kennel Club . Unfortunately my visit to the KC where I managed to read and hand transcribe all the records in the KC Journals from 1890 through to 1923 was pre laptop and pre digital camera when it would have been so easy to record all information in a permanent form for inclusion in my program thereafter. As a result I made decisions about what information I would transcribe for my records, and included all dogs I considered could be clearly linked directly to dogs I believed were show lines and as such part of a continuing bloodline that produced lines that carried on through the years, and decades and down to the present.
I did not transcribe records of dogs I thought were racing lines, many of whom had parents with racing names whose names had not occurred in my examination of records from years previous to the birth of their pups. As a consequence I left out dogs of unknown or uncertain pedigree based on my inability to find their parents in the records I had transcribed. I am afraid this arbitrary judgement was a mistake and left off names I should have recorded but did not.
My route back to the Oakroyd dogs in my program comes via taking German lines backwards from the present looking to see when those dogs make the leap from England to the continent. The records of the German whippet club have been excellently presented most recently on the Whippet Archives, and it is possible to take a significant number of German whippets back to the earliest times of the breed with parentage and dates of birth of all provided. While the Whippet Archives does contain mistakes -- and I have found myself correcting records of dogs in a number of instances where I have paper (such as a Whippet Club catalogue or whatever) that sets out the correct information -- it is a very useful resource for adding to the information on the evolution of the whippet world wide.
So I honestly cannot connect the Oakroyd dogs bck to a dog originally listed with a different name in KC records, that was thereafter sold abroad. Perhaps you can?
Interestingly, in the course of my commenting on this current thread, I remembered seeing some of the photos somewhere else that have been used to demonstrate the rough coated whippet and then I realized where. If you follow the link set out below you will see that the photos of some of these dogs is an important part of the rationalization being used by the long-haired whippet people in the US to promote their case, not just for long-haired dogs with a certain body type similar to the whippet (but bigger), and to create other designer breeds too, including, in this particular case, something called the Appalachian Greyhound.
Read on:
http://www.longhairedwhippet.com/appalachi...y_claybrook.htm
On a final note Gay, can you tell me, satisfy my curiosity -- is your pedigree program based solely or primarily only on KC registrations or is it world wide? And how big is your data base? It sounds like the most valuable of all possible resources and I am so envious!
Lanny
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Unfortunately I do not know who they are; this was in German Windhund magazine.
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Hi LannyAvalonia said:
My db is fundamentally all the registrations published in the Kennel Gazette from when they first started registering whippets (with some research to sort out the multiple Nells, Toms, et al). This goes up to December 1965 and also includes some American dogs that are of personal interest to me because they are behind some of my dogs. This is just under 50k dogs, all hand entered.
Then I have the whippets that the KC put on their computer records when they started them in 1982 and made available to buy on disk until a couple of years ago when the people doing it walked away from their contract. These include some pre 1982 but are not always accurate - many typos so they don't link up properly - plus more pre 1982 dogs that I have entered out of personal interest, usually because they are behind my lines or are UK champions or I have been asked to research a particular dog for someone (I have all the KC paper records except 1999 which I only have on disk). Since January 2005, I have been entering all current registrations individually, manually which has slowed the 1960s entries considerably (current brs for July - September is 948 new dogs) plus stud book numbers etc on old dogs. This means that I have a few more foreign ones now the UK barriers are coming down but I am not researching back more than 5 generations for them due to lack of time. Current count is 89,440 dogs - haven't started on new brs yet.
Obviously, there are no Oakroyds as this seems to be a German prefix and there is no Maid of Barnsley so probably not registered. Crossing the channel seems very liberating to people importing dogs - you'd be amazed at how many American imports became UK Chs en route :- "
Going back to the broken coats - they were regularly advertised in Our Dogs and Dog World as whippets but mostly for hunting or racing. Many racing whippets subsequently became show dogs and were registered but it has always been possible to register dogs of unknown breeding with our Kennel Club. The Mastiff people are currently taking the Kennel Club to court for doing just that in 1999!
Gay
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