Rough Coated Whippets

[moonlake]

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Hi,On The whippet Archives, I find "Hollings Old Danny" as the sire and "Robinson's Nell" as the dam of Oakroyd Prince.

These names tell you domething?

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No - as I said, I only have KC registered whippets for that period and there is no Hollings, no Old Danny and of the 28 Nells, none belong to Robinson.

Whatever the antecedents, those names are definitely not registered in the UK. I can only help if you give me an English name for Oakroyd Prince. Sorry.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[Avalonia]

Hi Lanny

My db is fundamentally all the registrations published in the Kennel Gazette from when they first started registering whippets (with some research to sort out the multiple Nells, Toms, et al). This goes up to December 1965 and also includes some American dogs that are of personal interest to me because they are behind some of my dogs. This is just under 50k dogs, all hand entered.

Then I have the whippets that the KC put on their computer records when they started them in 1982 and made available to buy on disk until a couple of years ago when the people doing it walked away from their contract. These include some pre 1982 but are not always accurate - many typos so they don't link up properly - plus more pre 1982 dogs that I have entered out of personal interest, usually because they are behind my lines or are UK champions or I have been asked to research a particular dog for someone (I have all the KC paper records except 1999 which I only have on disk). Since January 2005, I have been entering all current registrations individually, manually which has slowed the 1960s entries considerably (current brs for July - September is 948 new dogs) plus stud book numbers etc on old dogs. This means that I have a few more foreign ones now the UK barriers are coming down but I am not researching back more than 5 generations for them due to lack of time. Current count is 89,440 dogs - haven't started on new brs yet.

Gay

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Ohmigosh! What an incredible data base! Am I assuming right from how you have described it that the vast majority of entries there are English whippets (many of whom must not have been bred on from I would think) with a mix of American lines that have relevance to you? Or have you expanded it to include other nations as well now?

When I began my data base my intention was to limit it entirely to whippets in England because that was my focus, and so for a long long time I entered only those dogs I could find in English records. I also entered any of our dogs bred out of those English lines (as indeed all our dogs still are) but at a certain point it seemed reasonable for me to expand the data base to cover exported English whippets and their descendants in Canada, then the USA, and then I just threw up my hands and decided to heck with it, I would put in every pedigree of a whippet from anywhere that was registered in the official records of any country.

It was in the course of tracing back whippet lines in Germany that contain a modern Avalonia (and therefore English element) parent, from a series of dogs we exported to Germany in the past two decades, that I became obsessed with seeing how far back in the German lines I had to go to find dogs that were -- again -- closely related to English lines -- having parents exported from the UK. It became clear as I went backwards that a huge number of German whippets through the period from the very earliest days of whippets in England, had no close English connection -- probably because relations were strained through two world wars,a and so the German lines, up until in many cases the 1950s and 60s were all descended from those venerable decades of German lines. That is how I found Oakroyd Prince and two other Oakroyd dogs, said to be born in England. But I have never seen the name Oakroyd either in English records and hence there is a dead end. Perhaps the parents were unregistered dogs purchased and exported and so the line stops there. I doubt we shall ever know unless there is someone in the German whippet club who has access to the oldest records of the German Kennel Club and there is information there that answers that question.

With winter here in Canada now upon me I have returned from the garden where my son and I operate a daylily business, and am indoors and looking to keep myself active doing something moderately interesting, so winter is the time when I input a serious number of pedigrees. Right now I am working from old Whippet Club show catalogues gifted to me by Canadians Stuart and Aileen Harvey, who attended many many shows over nearly four decades going back to the mid 60s. There are a surprising number of dogs in those catalogues who are not in my program, largely I believe because they were never bred down from. Keeps me busy, anyway.

Next time I go to England, hopefully sometime in 2009, I hope to photograph all the pages of the Kennel Club Gazette covering whippet entries that a good friend has been collecting since the late 1960s. That ought to give me a good project for the following winter!

Lanny

 

[tinne]

  That is how I found Oakroyd Prince and two other Oakroyd dogs, said to be born in England.  But I have never seen the name Oakroyd either in English records and hence there is a dead end.  Perhaps the parents were unregistered dogs purchased and exported and so the line stops there.  I doubt we shall ever know unless there is someone in the German whippet club who has access to the oldest records of the German Kennel Club and there is information there that answers that question.


Lanny

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Hello Lanny, Gay and Kurt,

I also have something here. We have a database that has a start on Oakroyd Prince. We do have notes of a mating with Ch. Rodingard Von Einzelberg. Out of that mating came Achill Sagitta. He was mated to Elka Von der Schrote and they had a Champion Orloff Von der Schrote. He on his turn was mated to Annemie van Rozenlust. Her Father was Ch. Castellor on Top (Does that say anything ??) In 1932 this same Annemie van Rozenlust was mated to Dutch Ch. Tiptree Bounds King. here is my first English link in this regard. But again there is a death end around 1931 (it ends in Holland).

I guess it will be hard to find more on them.

 

[broom]

Hi ,

I have here 130 pictures with names of German whippets 1920-1930. I will put them all on The Whippet Archives in the coming weeks.

Now already put some dogs "du zwaenhoek", from mme Beernaerts, the wife of a very famous Barsoi-breeder. They lived only 4km from where I live and the family is still very well-known, that's why I got interested.

Here a picture of Mme Beernaerts .

 

[broom]

Sorry, forgot this: "du zwaenhoek"(difficult to translate, but : du=from, zwaen=swan, hoek=corner) is (like me) from Belgium.

You can find them on The Whippet Archives.

 

[broom]

IA friend of mine who breeds high quality roughaired teckels has litters with lots of variety. Some pups have the right coat (their profile must be almost the same as a smoothaired!), too short (they have only a bit of broaken coat on the tail and the back and the not whished long, too soft and wooly coat. It would be normal if there were dogs like these in the same litter as for example"mucki".

 

[moonlake]

  That is how I found Oakroyd Prince and two other Oakroyd dogs, said to be born in England.  But I have never seen the name Oakroyd either in English records and hence there is a dead end.  Perhaps the parents were unregistered dogs purchased and exported and so the line stops there.  I doubt we shall ever know unless there is someone in the German whippet club who has access to the oldest records of the German Kennel Club and there is information there that answers that question.


Lanny

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Hello Lanny, Gay and Kurt,

I also have something here. We have a database that has a start on Oakroyd Prince. We do have notes of a mating with Ch. Rodingard Von Einzelberg. Out of that mating came Achill Sagitta. He was mated to Elka Von der Schrote and they had a Champion Orloff Von der Schrote. He on his turn was mated to Annemie van Rozenlust. Her Father was Ch. Castellor on Top (Does that say anything ??) In 1932 this same Annemie van Rozenlust was mated to Dutch Ch. Tiptree Bounds King. here is my first English link in this regard. But again there is a death end around 1931 (it ends in Holland).

----870 7740).

I guess it will be hard to find more on them.

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Hi Tinne

If you want to extend the Tiptree connection, here is his pedigree:

Pedigree Of TIPTREE BOUND'S KING KG8/31

Sex: Dog

D.o.B: 28/01/1931

+-- BETTER LUCK KG12/13, 19/02/1913, ,

+-- WATFORD 11/19 BON KG1/17, 22/03/1916, ,

| +-- Ch KEMMEL KG2/15, 01/08/1914, ,

+-- JERRY KG4/20, 08/02/1919, ,

| | +-- STUDENT KG2/12, 04/06/1909, ,

| +-- REGAN MAID KG9/18, 17/05/1917, ,

| +-- SEQUENCE KG1/18, 01/02/1914, ,

+-- DANESTON KG2/26, 21/05/1925, ,

| | +-- PENTAMAR STOPPER KG6/14, 10/04/1913, ,

| | +-- STOPWHEEL KG7/20, , ,

| | | +-- FLY WHEEL KG4/13 REREG KG5/21, , ,

| +-- FREEWHEEL MAY KG8/21, 27/07/1920, ,

| | +-- FALSIDE FRED KG2/12, 07/02/1911, ,

| +-- MISS MAY KG3/21&5/21, 19/05/1914, ,

| +-- LITTLE SILVERLEAF UNR., , ,

+-- TIPTREE JINK KG10/33 AKA JINK UNR., 16/02/1929, ,

| | +-- Ch MANORLEY MAORI 1/04 AKA SHIRLEY TRAMP KG11/02, 25/04/1902, ,

| | +-- TOWYSIDE SMOKE KG8/13, 17/11/1912, ,

| | | +-- Ch GIRL SCOUT KG10/11, 17/01/1911, ,

| | +-- Ch TOWYSIDE TATTERS KG1/22, 28/05/1921, ,

| | | | +-- WATFORD MYSTIC KG11/16, 22/09/1914, ,

| | | +-- WATFORD MYRTH KG2/19, 23/03/1917, ,

| | | +-- Ch SCILLA KG10/10, 11/01/1910, ,

| +-- SILIANS QUEEN KG7/27, 27/08/1925, ,

| | +-- WILLESBEA KG4/20, 28/01/1919, ,

| | +-- CH WILLESBEAUX KG11/20, 22/03/1920, ,

| | | +-- WINSTAR KG2/16, 09/03/1915, ,

| +-- SUN-SHINE KG7/24, 22/04/1922, ,

| | +-- Ch SHIRLEY SUNSTAR KG7/11, 11/11/1909, ,

| +-- THREE STAR KG1/17, 16/03/1915, ,

| +-- ENID KG2/11, 21/06/1910, ,

+-- TIPTREE BOUND'S KING KG8/31, Dog, 28/01/1931, ,

| +--

| +--

| | +--

| +--

| | | +--

| | +--

| | +--

| +-- JIMMY UNR., , ,

| | | +--

| | | +--

| | | | +--

| | +--

| | | +--

| | +--

| | +--

+-- GOWERS REJECTED KG9/29, 28/02/1928, ,

| +-- SEARCHLIGHT KG5/19 AKA TREFF.POMMERN KG12/15, 16/02/1915, ,

| +-- WILLESBEA KG4/20, 28/01/1919, ,

| | +-- SPRAY KG7/13, 11/07/1911, ,

| +-- CH WILLESBEAUX KG11/20, 22/03/1920, ,

| | | +-- Ch SHIRLEY SUNSTAR KG7/11, 11/11/1909, ,

| | +-- WINSTAR KG2/16, 09/03/1915, ,

| | +-- IRENE 8/10 FALSIDE FASCINATION KG11/11, 02/03/1910, ,

+-- SUN-SHINE KG7/24, 22/04/1922, ,

| +-- PRINCE GEORGE KG12/02, 25/04/1902, ,

| +-- Ch SHIRLEY SUNSTAR KG7/11, 11/11/1909, ,

| | +-- SHIRLEY POPPIE KG7/09, 04/10/1908, ,

+-- THREE STAR KG1/17, 16/03/1915, ,

| +-- Ch SHIRLEY WHIRLWIND KG3/07, 13/06/1906, ,

+-- ENID KG2/11, 21/06/1910, ,

+-- WHITE CITY KG7/09, 27/07/1908, ,

I don't often speculate on whippet names but I wonder whether the bitch was called Gower's Rejected because the unregistered dog did not produce as hoped??

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

 

[Avalonia]

I don't often speculate on whippet names but I wonder whether the bitch was called Gower's Rejected because the unregistered dog did not produce as hoped??

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk

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Poor Jimmy! I bet you are right.

Thanks for posting the info with correct dates. I had all the pedigrees but I did not have birthdates for a handful of the pedigrees of the mid 1920s onwards dogs. Now I do and I appreciate the info.

Lanny

 

[broom]

Hello everybody,

Reading this, I remember having a picture with Tiptree Bounds King.

I put this on TWA.

I also added his daughter "Sunshine van Lomarwiljos".

Later he was married with his own daughter. That resulted in "Sunstar van Lomarwiljos" and Sunshine van Lomarwiljos". These too are added.

Here they are together:

Sinstar van Lomarwiljos, Winstar van Lomarwiljos, Sunshine van Lomarwiljos and Tiptree Bounds King!

 

[broom]

Sorry, "Sunstar"!!!, not "Sinstar"!

 

[Alba]

I wonder why the rough-coated whippets were bred out, we could have had two varieties. Also why the nonped whippet racing won't accept dogs which don't have smooth coats when otherwise they do not require any evidence of the dog's background, just that it looks like a whippet (most are whippet with a bit of greyhound mixed in, but I do believe from looking at the dogs that some have a bit of terrier in them -- or is that just the terrier crossed to whippets a century or so back, which would also have been the origin of the rough coats?)

 

[moonlake]

I wonder why the rough-coated whippets were bred out, we could have had two varieties. Also why the nonped whippet racing won't accept dogs which don't have smooth coats when otherwise they do not require any evidence of the dog's background, just that it looks like a whippet (most are whippet with a bit of greyhound mixed in, but I do believe from looking at the dogs that some have a bit of terrier in them -- or is that just the terrier crossed to whippets a century or so back, which would also have been the origin of the rough coats?)

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I think the rough coats were always a bit lurchery and they couldn't be shown because the Whippet Club was founded in 1899 to promote "true" whippets which in practice meant guaranteeing shows would not lose money if they scheduled whippet classes. They also promoted the judges they thought would do a good job and if a rough coat did manage to get registered and appeared in the ring, any judge would know that he would not be supported in the future if he rewarded it. I am not expert on this subject but have gleaned a "feel" for the scene from reading endless dog papers of the early 1900s.

By the time the BWRA was formed, it was taken for granted that whether registered or not, whippets were a smooth coated breed.

Gay

www.moonlake.co.uk