Rspca- Know Your Rights

[Blue wrecking it]

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Basic legal advice for pet owners. 

You get a knock at the door; you open it.

 It’s the R.S.P.C.A. The “officer” may or may not be in uniform but, crucially, the police are not in attendance. 

What should you do?

Do not panic and do not let the uniform or the attitude intimidate you. There is a good chance that you will be cautioned using the words “You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not now mention something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence”.

All this means is that the R.S.P.C.A. officer can now give evidence in court as to what you say. At this time the R.S.P.C.A. have no powers to arrest you, all they can do is report you for summons. 

We recommend that you ask “Am I under arrest?” Note their response.

.It is very important that you do not allow them entry into your premises. 

They have no rights to be on your property.  They have no special legal powers.

  They cannot demand entry to look at your animals. 

 They cannot demand that you answer questions. 

 You may feel that you are being helpful to let them in and have a look round and you may feel that you have nothing to hide but do not let yourself be lulled into a false sense of security.

Many innocent animal keepers have lost their animals in this way.  If you allow them in you are opening yourself up to problems  which could lead to you losing your animals even if you are a good and conscientious keeper. 

 Be firm, but polite, and do not let them into your house, or other premises.Say “I have been advised not to answer any questions put by, or in the presence of, R.S.P.C.A. officials without a solicitor present. If you wish to question me I must insist that you arrange, and pay for, the police duty solicitor to be present”.

Ask them to leave saying “Unless you have lawful authorisation to enter my premises I want you to leave now”. If they refuse to leave you are entitled to use reasonable force to eject them, as you would any other common trespasser.

Do not think that this is the end of the matter – they will probably be back, perhaps with the police.

Telephone one of the  emergency helpline numbers – we will do our best to put you in touch with people who can help.  We can also advise on how you should now proceed.

Our basic advice would be that you need to photograph you animals and your enclosures, invite a trusted friend to look over your stock and conditions or, preferably, get someone whose testimony would carry more weight to look over your animals/pets.

It would certainly be a good idea to have a specialist vet check and write you a report. We can put you in touch with expert witnesses and veterinarians and we can also seek legal advice on your behalf.

What do you do if the police attend your premises with the R.S.P.C.A.?

Ask “Do you have a search warrant, or other lawful authority, to enter my premises? Insist on a yes or no answer.

If the answer is no they have no right to demand access don’t let them in and proceed as you would if the R.S.P.C.A. attend on their own.Many people feel intimidated when faced with “mob-handed” visits but the law is on your side.

No matter what the R.S.P.C.A. may say to you, do not be tempted to let them in without proper authority. 

No legal seizure of your animals can take place unless entry to your premises has taken place with proper authority.If in any doubt, or you simply want some back-up, call the either of the helpline numbers or get someone to call on your behalf.

 If they do have a search warrant ask “May I see and read the search warrant?” Ensure that you read the warrant before they try to enter unless they state it is urgent.

It is very important that you don’t to anything to obstruct the police officer(s).Check to see who is authorised to enter by the warrant. Only allow the persons authorised in the warrant onto your property and insist that any others leave. Ask for a witness to be allowed in. Get a friend to come over as soon as possible.

Call the Emergency Helpline 0844 700 66 90 as soon as you are able and we will try to locate an expert witness in your area to attend. We can also get legal advice for you. The sooner we know you have a problem the sooner we can start acting on your behalf. Once you animals have been seized it can be quite difficult to get them back and we would always try to prevent seizures being carried out.Ensure that you record the time that any search is initiated and also the time at which it is finished.

Record the details of anyone who enters and insist that you see ID cards for anyone in plain clothes.Remember that anyone not specifically named on the warrant can be told to leave. If they do not leave they are guilty of trespass.Don’t be bullied, be firm but polite at all times. If you feel the situation is getting out of hand, or you want advice, call us. 

With reference to your property (whether it be your animals or any documentation), only the police have the authority to remove items.

The R.S.P.C.A. (or any other charity) have absolutely no authority to remove your property (and this includes your animals) without your consent.If the police want to take things away seek further advice from us immediately. Insist that you are given a full receipt that lists everything in detail (e.g. 75 sheets of paper, 2 notebooks, etc.) do not accept receipts for, for example, “a quantity of correspondence” make sure it is listed in full.Should your animals be removed by the police you are entitled to inspect them wherever they may have been placed and you are entitled to an independent veterinary inspection, which the R.S.P.C.A. are obliged to pay for. If you are arrested insist that you speak only to the police and do not answer questions with the R.S.P.C.A. present. Insist that you wish to speak to the duty solicitor and do not make a written statement until you have spoken to the duty solicitor.

 The police may have some other authority to enter your premises which means they can go in without a search warrant. They can, for example, enter to arrest you for various offences without your consent. If they use this authority it does not enable anyone else to enter so you can insist that all other persons leave your premises, unless they can give a lawful authority for their being present. If you are unfortunate enough to be the subject of a raid you may well find yourself overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of people that end up on your doorstep. With police officers, R.S.P.C.A. personnel and members of other charities brought in as consultants or handlers, last and not least film crews,  you may well be facing a dozen or more people. Thus intimidated, even though you know your rights, you could find yourself pressured into allowing admittance to your house or other premises.

Most keepers are law abiding citizens who have been accustomed to cooperating with authority figures and this is what makes you vulnerable.Perfectly healthy-looking animals have also been removed “for further examination”, never to be returned. Do not be persuaded to sign away your animals, for examination off your premises, or for any other purpose – you will probably not have them returned.        

 

[banana]

Thanks - very helpful!

 

[lurcherman]

yeah very helpfull. thing is why would they be coming to somebodys door lets say mine when i know ive done nothing and i mean nothing wrong, lets look at my facts ive got two lurchers, and at present they dont work as getting older, i dont break the law and never been in trouble with the law in 47 years of my life so why would they knock on my innocent door, what possible proof do they have to take my dog???

 

[lurcherman]

blue im not against you by the way i just need to understand, cus if thats what going on then A its wrong and B against the law and my law.

 

[Strix]

all it takes is for a new neighbour to take a dislike to you (because he doesn't like your trees shedding leaves on his garden, or doesn't like how your gate squeaks, you know the kind of thing), and your dogs can become the target, so it is best for us all to at least have an appreciation of this information, even if we don't memorise it chapter and verse

 

[TTT]

Quite right - does no harm to know this at all - especially as Strix says, if you have narky neighbours :thumbsup: .......just to add....ALWAYS be seen to pick up your dog's turds.......don't give the neighbours any excuse to dislike you or your dog.

 

[Strix]

I've been threatened with the rspca myself. I was training Brude to sit and wait outside a local shop. He was distracted, and I got hold of his chin and spoke firmly to him. A woman went mad at me, telling me she has two beagles, and I should put him on a lead

Oh well, if she has twice as many beagles as I do, she obviously knows best

It turned out that a bitch in a nearby shop was in season. I'm amazed my hound was so well behaved given the circumstances!

I've met the dual beagle owner since. She can only let one of hers off a lead... sometimes

Nuff sed

 

[Blue wrecking it]

Yes. Like has been said lurcherman. Only takes somebody to report you for you dogs being skinny and that gives them reason to knock.

Once you let them im as you have nothing to hide then they maybe see a rabbit skin dummy. A chest freezer. A lamp. Ferrets. Ferreting kit. A knife. A lure machine. Etc

They then try to look into it further. Put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5.

Chest freezer- used to keep poached deers in.

Rabbit skin- caught without permission

Lure machine- used to train vicious dogs for bloodsports.

Ferrets- used to bolt rabbits to catch and use as 'droppers'.

Knife- used to harm innocent animals.

And last but not leastly THE LAMP! a poachers weapon of choice!

This is how they think. Then they come back with police, take your dogs for 'further analysis' and before you know it all of the above stuff is gone and never to be returned.

Ive got lots of reports of this exact thing happening. Not just to dog owners either.

Be aware and be wise when it comes to dealing with them.

 

[Blue wrecking it]

I was at glamis countryside festival and a woman said my dogs were too skinny....'you need to feed them she said'....'oh i need to feed them do i?, have you ever seen a fat runner?....'NO' she replied.... thas why ive got 2 skinny (conditioned) dogs and a fat lab...now go away'....

Another time i was at the 'love pets' show with the ferret club and the rspca were there blabbing about lurchers being a poachers dog...cruelty of blah blah.

.....

I was asked to sign a petition to stop lurchers being in a public place without a muzzle.......i went fcuking mad and gave them a piece of my mind. Security asked me to leave before i chinned the cheeky baastard for telling my wife i shouldnt take the dogs out hunting!

I wouldnt give them the time of day.

I have lots of stories about the rspca/sspca taking animals without right for further examination. Would help somebody get theire dogs bsck if need be.

 

[lurcherman]

blue when i read i always see the good points and i always read the rspca reports so thanks, im with you on the your dogs are skinny lol had it so many times lol i see your point of letting them in if you have stuff lying around, at moment they not find anythink bad in my house as i scaled down the hunting but do still love mooching, its just me i get defensive. anyway happy hunting bud :thumbsup:

 

[Blue wrecking it]

The rspca report what they want the public to see. All the stuff thats good for publicity (saving drowning kittens, shutting puppy farms etc)

What they dont show you is how they pts a perfectly healthy dog for no reason other than to make kennel space, or how they refuse to come out to abandoned dogs, or how they are spending millions of your donations trying to frame people for hunting acts just because it makes good publicity!

Nothing better than a good 'we stopped a badger baiting ring' or a 'rspca rescues lurchers from coursing gang' story to drum up support.

The issue is they try to pull a conviction from anywhere and everywhere and innocent people have their dogs taken by force never to be returned again.

Dont listen to a word they say. I applaud animal charities but the rspca is hated by the others and people have left because their policies sre disgusting.

I have a direct debit set up to the dogs trust. Great charity and does exactly what its meant to - saves and rehomes dogs.

Unlike the rspca who stick their noses in business they know nothing about.

 

[Tigernidster]

I see you live in Midlothian so presumably any dealings you have have had have been with the SSPCA? Do all your previous comments relate to them as well as to the RSPCA or to both in general?

 

[Blue wrecking it]

I see you live in Midlothian so presumably any dealings you have have had have been with the SSPCA? Do all your previous comments relate to them as well as to the RSPCA or to both in general?

Both in general although i have lived in scotland for 7 years im originally from england.

The rspca is the main one with the sspca following them like a lost puppy.

The sspca are worse in some ways, better in others.

Just give them both a wide berth and dont let them intimidate you.

 

[chelynnah]

yeah very helpfull. thing is why would they be coming to somebodys door lets say mine when i know ive done nothing and i mean nothing wrong, lets look at my facts ive got two lurchers, and at present they dont work as getting older, i dont break the law and never been in trouble with the law in 47 years of my life so why would they knock on my innocent door, what possible proof do they have to take my dog???

A friend of mine had a Saluki several years ago. If you've ever seen a Saluki you know how thin they are, and you know they can definitely appear malnourished to the untrained eye. The Saluki was actually very healthy - I had seen it first hand about a week before all this went down. The neighbours reported her to the local Animal Warden who came round, saw the dogs through the door, decided they were too thin (she also had an American Golden Retriever she had brought with her when she moved here from there - and it was taller and thinner than those you see over here - body type more like a flatcoat) and cautioned her on the spot. She refused to let him in. He said he would be back in 48 hours. She got a letter from her vet stating that the dogs were healthy and there was nothing wrong. The officer accepted that for the Golden, but not for the Saluki. He was convinced because he could see hips that it was malnourished. She fed raw, so he decided that it definitely wasn't being fed correctly. She tried to show him books on the breed and on raw feeding and he wasn't interested. He gave her another 48 hours.

Now to his credit, in those 48 hours he went away, read up on raw feeding, read up on Salukis, and educated himself. He came back, cap in hand (honestly) and apologised. Was prepared to close the file on the complaint and asked her to tell him more about Salukis and sighthounds so that if the issue ever came up again he would be better placed to understand. She spent about an hour with him, showed him her 'dog freezer' with all the meat there, and not only shared with him about Salukis and sighthounds, but also about raw/natural feeding. He was very grateful for her assistance, and in this case it turned out to be something good in the end, even though at the beginning it was very scary for her. THIS is the type of person you want in this kind of situation, one who is willing to be wrong. It could have gone very badly if he hadn't swallowed his pride, and been willing to learn (and at the beginning it looked bad).

So while you can be doing everything right and caring for your animals properly, if someone else thinks you aren't you could very easily be visited and accused of all sorts, and how it turns out can depend on so much more than just being 'right'.

 

[Dizzyjenni]

Really interesting thread!!!

It's terrifying how easily it is for someone to be accused of something appalling - and then have to actually fight to prove your innocence.

 

[lurcherman]

its been a good thread, take on board whats been said, for me the magic word is innocence, so id say show me the proof?

 

[Blue wrecking it]

Your not getting the point of this whole thread. Innocence means nothing. If they suspect you have done something your dogs will be took (or they can try) and only months later in a court of law you will be proven innocent.

Only then will you get your dogs back after being seperated for months and going through the torture of the whole situation.

This is here to help prevent the dogs being taken in the first place.

 

[lurcherman]

i do get it and it wouldnt be nice, to have a reason you have got to be doing somethink a bit risky, if i hit my dogs in public theres a risk if my dogs are not under control theres a risk so on and so on, like i said at present im not doing nothing wrong and nothing to hide, look i do understand but im not letting them stop me from being free to walk my dogs unworried, my dogs are not in my name and if need be they could be away, i believe in me doing the right thing, sorry buts its how i feel im not crawling under a rock from them, a few years back i could be saying different,

 

[Blue wrecking it]

Im not implying that you shouldnt go about your business freely. Gosh, i go about mine daily. Its only a heads up. Your getting the wrong end of the stick.

Do what you want, go about your business as you wish.

This is a guide should they knock on the door and what to do to keep them away and not them pull the wool with what they can do legally.

If you have nothing to hide or if you have something to hide then its still the same routine and policy.

I have my dogs out everyday and work them and have nothing to hide. But if a van should drive past and see the dogs and decides to do a 'check' then i know what to do.

This is a guideline for everybodyy innocent or guilty.

Take from it what you wish. The last thing i am saying to do is crawl awat from them. Be proud of what you do and show your dogs off like a proud father. I do. But should the worst happen you know what to do.

 

[lurcherman]

ok, i will try and be safer and more alert :thumbsup: , apart from what i always do thats keep my eyes wide open i will take on board more, many thanx.