Scratch Class For Peds?

[Victoria Woolhead]

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Hi to all clubs and members.

My KC ped is too big and heavy to race at open level, which I find really disappointing, as Sam can run and will never really get the chance to prove himself, other than at clubs such as the longdogs. There are a lot of us with big peds that would love to run, and it seems madness to turn people away from the sport for the sake of an extra class. It works very well in non ped racing!

Anyone reading this... please take it back to your clubs and propose an extra scratch class for us biguns.. :thumbsup: :luck:

 

[IanGerman]

Hi Victoria - I sympathise, but it is a problem area.

How do you differentiate between your dogs and others, possible more race bred that are just faster? If you want a scratch race or races for slow big dogs, where do you define the line be drawn between what is deemed to be slow and/or fast? It's a subjective viewpoint and no doubt there would be many a debate as to who's dogs should be allowed into this exclusive class.

I, along with many others in racing, started out with slow, heavy boned show dogs, but I was fortunate in that the club I joined - East Anglia - ran a club handicap system, which was results based and attempted to even out the speed differences between members dogs. Obviously it was a BIG advantage to people like myself, but a disadvantage to the owners of speedy, race bred whippets. The argument from owners of fast dogs was that their dog was penalised just for being quick, the counter argument was that quick dogs can compete in Opens, that the show dogs have NO chance in. Just for the record, I took the view that if I took advantage of handicap racing, where my dogs DID have a chance, it was only fair to run them in weight classes where they didn't. (winners need losers in order to have won) This philosophy often didn't extend to owners of fast dogs though, who frequently complained of the yardage they were giving away, and sometimes elected to "trial" instead of entering the racing.

When I became a fast dog owner myself, I kept the same philosophy, but seemed to be in a minority at times. My club is now Harvel, who abandoned handicap racing completely some 3-4 years ago - the handicapper is on a hiding to nothing to be fair, castigated if he doesn't give enough to the slower dogs, and berated by others if he does!

There IS a case to be made for a separate class if a strong willed race manager identifies and names the "slow" dogs and frames a series of racing just for them. I can also see how some owners may feel insulted to think that their dog has been officially labelled "slow"!!!!

I'll mention it at my club when I'm wearing my hard-hat

 

[Mark Roberts]

The problem is some breeders especialy well known working lines! are delibratly breeding bigger whippets upto 24" and advetising the fact openly that their dogs will make 24" bitch's 22", yet still advertising them as "show/race/work/pet" which obviously is not accurate advertising.

This issue was descussed last yeat at the WCRA talk in and voted by a massive majority NOT to increase hieght limits ect.

I for 1 wouldn't want to see the limits increased otherwise this will again encourage people to delibratly set out to breed even bigger whippets.

at the Lancashire we did try putting on races for over sized dogs but most fail to attened on a regular basis when they find out they can't race with the correct sized whippets so we dropped them, then like Ian has already said serious racers then moan the day is being dragged out by oversized dogs running ect ect.

 

[Cloke]

Surely one of the problems with pedigree whippet racing is that it is in decline and we need to encourage a many people as possible to come and enjoy running their pedigree whippets at our clubs. At South Cotswolds we try to accomodate everybody. We regularly put on racing and competitions for oversize dogs. Are we not in danger of creating a separate breed, ( the "racing" whippet ), and limiting ourselves exclusively just to them.?

 

[Mark Roberts]

putting casual oversized runs is 1 thing but by adding a bigger group? i think your just encouraging pwople to breed bigger and the whippet isnt meant to look like a whippet/greyhound

 

[Victoria Woolhead]

Hi Victoria - I sympathise, but it is a problem area.How do you differentiate between your dogs and others, possible more race bred that are just faster? If you want a scratch race or races for slow big dogs, where do you define the line be drawn between what is deemed to be slow and/or fast? It's a subjective viewpoint and no doubt there would be many a debate as to who's dogs should be allowed into this exclusive class.

I, along with many others in racing, started out with slow, heavy boned show dogs, but I was fortunate in that the club I joined - East Anglia - ran a club handicap system, which was results based and attempted to even out the speed differences between members dogs. Obviously it was a BIG advantage to people like myself, but a disadvantage to the owners of speedy, race bred whippets. The argument from owners of fast dogs was that their dog was penalised just for being quick, the counter argument was that quick dogs can compete in Opens, that the show dogs have NO chance in. Just for the record, I took the view that if I took advantage of handicap racing, where my dogs DID have a chance, it was only fair to run them in weight classes where they didn't. (winners need losers in order to have won) This philosophy often didn't extend to owners of fast dogs though, who frequently complained of the yardage they were giving away, and sometimes elected to "trial" instead of entering the racing.

When I became a fast dog owner myself, I kept the same philosophy, but seemed to be in a minority at times. My club is now Harvel, who abandoned handicap racing completely some 3-4 years ago - the handicapper is on a hiding to nothing to be fair, castigated if he doesn't give enough to the slower dogs, and berated by others if he does!

There IS a case to be made for a separate class if a strong willed race manager identifies and names the "slow" dogs and frames a series of racing just for them. I can also see how some owners may feel insulted to think that their dog has been officially labelled "slow"!!!!

I'll mention it at my club when I'm wearing my hard-hat

I wasn't commenting on fast or slow dogs?? I think Sam is very fast and has proven that he can hold his own with any of the racing whippets. Also given them yardage??

I bet sam's not the only fast big dog out there, and by big I mean his half inch too tall to race. There must be lots like him, it wouldn't matter to those of you who already race, I can't see a good reason not to have a scratch class. :wacko:

Thanks anyway for trying :thumbsup:

 

[Victoria Woolhead]

putting casual oversized runs is 1 thing but by adding a bigger group? i think your just encouraging pwople to breed bigger and the whippet isnt meant to look like a whippet/greyhound

I can see your point if this was non peds... but how can you get greyhound size whippets if they're KC REG?? That surely would keep the breeding under tabs, the fact they are KC! And what would it matter to all the other classes if there was a class for big whippets... you wouldn't be running in them unless you had a bigger Whippet?

in most dogs that I know that Im talking about it's between 1/2 and 1 inch....

 

[Mark Roberts]

putting casual oversized runs is 1 thing but by adding a bigger group? i think your just encouraging pwople to breed bigger and the whippet isnt meant to look like a whippet/greyhound

I can see your point if this was non peds... but how can you get greyhound size whippets if they're KC REG?? That surely would keep the breeding under tabs, the fact they are KC! And what would it matter to all the other classes if there was a class for big whippets... you wouldn't be running in them unless you had a bigger Whippet?

in most dogs that I know that Im talking about it's between 1/2 and 1 inch....

So I take it your boy is say 1/2" over?.

so lets say we put a scratch group on for any dog over the limit, and lets say that a dog is very very fast?, what will then happen is people will use that dog at stud thus producing yet more over sized dogs.

 

[Louise_Simon]

Havent they already upped the height to 21"for dogs and 20" for bitches to allow for bigger show whippets, when the breed standard says 19-20" for dogs and 17 1/2 - 18 1/2 for bitches just stop breeding taller show whippets. Just my opinion

 

[~Annie~]

Surely one of the problems with pedigree whippet racing is that it is in decline and we need to encourage a many people as possible to come and enjoy running their pedigree whippets at our clubs. At South Cotswolds we try to accomodate everybody. We regularly put on racing and competitions for oversize dogs. Are we not in danger of creating a separate breed, ( the "racing" whippet ), and limiting ourselves exclusively just to them.?

I do sympathise with the OP, and the comments made about big whippets. Finn is on the borderline, he just goes under the measure, but he is still too big to be competitive against the smaller racing bred whippets. I agree that ever bigger whippets are not the way to go, but some of the KC racing whippets are an inch or two under the breed standard and there are arguments for breeding ever smaller being a bad thing too. Don't know what the answer is, hoping wiser heads can come up with that, just making the observation, but aren't many racing whippets already effectively a breed within a breed?

 

[Mark Roberts]

The easy answer to that annie is that whippets realy have split into 3 distinct types racing (probably the closest to the original whippet of many moons ago) show and working.

show/working lines on the whole are constantly being bred bigger the working side to take bigger quarry the show lines i belive as a bigger dog has more presence in the ring than a smaller one?.

but we should strive to keep racing whippets to the correct size.

as ive said before if you start increasing limits or making exceptions where do you stop as theres always going to be 1 just over the limit.

 

[peppermint lady]

The easy answer to that annie is that whippets realy have split into 3 distinct types racing (probably the closest to the original whippet of many moons ago) show and working.
show/working lines on the whole are constantly being bred bigger the working side to take bigger quarry the show lines i belive as a bigger dog has more presence in the ring than a smaller one?.

but we should strive to keep racing whippets to the correct size.

as ive said before if you start increasing limits or making exceptions where do you stop as theres always going to be 1 just over the limit.

good reply Mark :thumbsup:

 

[June Jonigk]

The easy answer to that annie is that whippets realy have split into 3 distinct types racing (probably the closest to the original whippet of many moons ago) show and working.
show/working lines on the whole are constantly being bred bigger the working side to take bigger quarry the show lines i belive as a bigger dog has more presence in the ring than a smaller one?.

but we should strive to keep racing whippets to the correct size.

as ive said before if you start increasing limits or making exceptions where do you stop as theres always going to be 1 just over the limit.

Spot on :thumbsup: Just because a whippet is KC registered, it doesn't mean it isn't starting to look more like a greyhound. We all have our preferences in what type of whippet we prefer, and I do have great sympathy for anyone who has a whippet that is just half an inch oversize - but unless there is a limit that is stuck to, like Mark says people will use dogs likely to produce large tall whippet, just becase they are fast. The racing height limit as Lou says is already over the breed standard, and the weight limit has also been raised.

There are many clubs who will let you run your whippet, Gloucester welcomes people with whippets of all sizes, they can have a run behind the lure, they just can't compete - come along and join us sometime :thumbsup:

 

[Victoria Woolhead]

The easy answer to that annie is that whippets realy have split into 3 distinct types racing (probably the closest to the original whippet of many moons ago) show and working.
show/working lines on the whole are constantly being bred bigger the working side to take bigger quarry the show lines i belive as a bigger dog has more presence in the ring than a smaller one?.

but we should strive to keep racing whippets to the correct size.

as ive said before if you start increasing limits or making exceptions where do you stop as theres always going to be 1 just over the limit.

Well it works very well with the non peds! The non ped scratch also has its limits..

I haven't seen one good answer on here of why you shouldn't have a class for working/ show types to race.

All seems very snobby to me. In fact I met a lady recently that had come to the non ped club Im a member of. The lady has also a big whippet and went to one of the ped whippet clubs. After, talking to one of the members on the phone. When she got there.. everyone avoided her like the plague. There's nothing wrong with the lady...very nice..

There you go... you all seem very set in your ways;

"whippets realy have split into 3 distinct types racing (probably the closest to the original whippet of many moons ago) show and working."

" but we should strive to keep racing whippets to the correct size."

The BNP whippet clubs.... (w00t) (w00t) (w00t)

Well thankyou all for enlightening me!!

 

[Mark Roberts]

Well it works very well with the non peds! The non ped scratch also has its limits..

there you go then race at the non ped clubs sorted.

 

[~Annie~]

... but we should strive to keep racing whippets to the correct size ...

I take it you mean to the KC breed standard and not the higher limits set within racing?

I have seen a few very small racing whippets ... is that a trend that is also on the increase in just the same way as working/show breds are apparently getting bigger?

Should add I'm not suggesting that there aren't still plenty of correctly sized whippets in all disciplines (my boys, for reference, are 21", 20 1/4", and Taran is probably about 19 but won't stand still long enough for us to measure him properly ) ).

 

[peppermint lady]

"I haven't seen one good answer on here of why you shouldn't have a class for working/ show types to race."

maybe that because "whippet racing" is aimed at "racing whippets" (w00t)

i have lots of whippets, and all race bred, amongst them i have some very fast dogs and some very slow one's :wacko: but i enter them for the racing all the same, i don't expect extra groups to be laid on for my slower racers

I don't know what club your friend went to, but i know at both my local clubs all members and new racers are made very welcome, so i think it's unfair to tar all clubs/racers with the same brush

 

[IanGerman]

"... but how can you get greyhound size whippets if they're KC REG?? That surely would keep the breeding under tabs, the fact they are KC!"

Unfortunately Victoria, the Kennel Club don't dis-allow registration for anything that doesn't comply with that breeds standard. Therefore if you could produce a whippet that was 3 foot high at the shoulder but was from KC registered parents, it would still be a pedigree whippet and would have KC papers to prove it.

And although the whippet breed states recommended sizes for dogs and bitches, they are recommended only, not compulsory, and therefore, for reasons another poster has already stated different sports breed for different characteristics. This may be unfortunate, as it encourages a wide degree of variance within what is meant to be the one breed. But that's just the way it is.

And newcomers to Harvel are also made very welcome, we also advise them as soon as possible what they can and can't do in regard to any dogs they may have brought along. Being a pedigree club, we unfortunately don't run non-ped classes - mainly because there isn't enough of them, but ANY dog can chase the lure during trialling - with or without running companions.

And I agree with others, that having raised the limit once relatively recently, it should remain as it is now.

 

[Victoria Woolhead]

Well it works very well with the non peds! The non ped scratch also has its limits..

there you go then race at the non ped clubs sorted.

God... more clever answers.

 

[wild whippies]

Hi Victoria,

The problem is the racing pedigree whippet is a different entity to the show bred, the working bred and of course the non-ped.

The Kennel Club closed it's stud books and those choosing to race KC whippets went on to breed for speed, the working ped bred for stamina and the show bred for whatever appearance suits - all doing so under the umbrella of the KC breed standard. It does seem a little farsical that a breed standard diligent on maintaining type produces dogs or varied appearance but in fairness if the breed wasn't so diverse, defects would of raised their head a lot faster than they're doing now.

It has to be acknowledged that there is a potential safety issue of a slower heavier set whippet coming crashing in to the dogs that are already on the lure and it's why in certain handicaps, the large dogs withdraw from the run off (because it's the yardage that favours the little dog and gives a greater likelihood of the big dog being the last over the line). There's also the matter that if racing in weight handicaps were the lightweight dog has the advantage, time and time again the big dog at the back is going to see the little dog get what it wants, not a good moral booster regardless of how impeccable the whippets character may be.

In a perfect world, every whippet would race in a time handicap and with a good handicapper every dog has a chance to win. The problem is that timing all those dogs on the day of a race would take an eternity and there's those who would corrupt their dogs time in that trial. Hence the greyhound flapping tracks operating a red light system which isn't perfect either.

Your frustration (and it would be mine too) is that whilst your peddy is big, they're blooming fast too. The way they powered down the straight at wessy and won was very impressive. :thumbsup:

However, Mark's comment does have some merit. (w00t)

There are several events in non-ped whippet racing now that hold classes for pedigree whippets. They have come about because of all those peddys that were either too slow /too big /too tall / couldn't be registered to run with the KC affiliated clubs and ended up running at non-ped clubs. These dogs are well respected in non-ped racing because without them there'd be a lot of non-ped owners struggling to school their dogs. Peds entering these events will be known as training dogs from non ped clubs and most events operate on a time handicap basis to ensure fairplay.

Events are as follows:

English Derby

Scottish Derby

Valentine / Sailaway Open

BWRA Bend Bonanza

George Hartley Memorial

East Ayrshire weekend

few others I think Newton Aycliffe and Blidworth have peddy races but your best bet is to keep an eye on the non-ped forum. :thumbsup:

My peds (6yrs old now) have accumulated their fair share of trophies / prize winnings and velvet jackets. Their faces have been in whippet news on several occasions and they've even graced televison twice now but they're biggest recognition is for training all the North West non-peds. Their owners shower these dogs with affection every time they come to the club and I know their names will be fondly remembered.

Ok they don't have the red writing on a piece of paper but seeing as though obtaining KC registration isn't foolproof and the ped racing world is thwarted with rumours of non-ped blood in their breeding then rating such accolades isn't without it's doubts anyway. :wacko: