Showing Questionaire

[mikadene]

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I thought it may be a good idea whilst there are a few of us looking at results to see what we consider to be the most important points when judging or showing Whippets.
I would like you all to just put your chosen numbers first at the top of your post.  You can of course justify any placings underneath.

The questions is.  Place in order of importance to you personally what you look for in an adult Whippet when judging or showing

1, Breed type

2, Head shape, ears, feet and tails

3, Movement

4, Temperament (visable not assumed, shy, aggresive in public etc)

5, Conformation

6, Presentation (Turn out and handling)

7, Colour.

The above list is not in any particular order at the moment

I know some of you will want to put, 'Oh I judge the dog as a whole' most of us know that but if you had to list an order for YOU what would it be.

REMEMBER NUMBERS FIRST AT THE TOP OF YOUR POST.  Thanks

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1, ( Should this not read Breed standard )

5, If it is built right it will move right.

3, The end result of conformation.

2, This is also taken care of in the Breed standard.

4 , It has to have that true Whippet Temperament

6 , I have always been keen on Presentation.

7 Colour is only a coat of paint in any launguage.

My main pet hate is seeing exhibiters in the ring in jeans and tee shirts, and chewing Gum. They cannot have any respect for the judge their dogs or themselves. One also sees exhibiters in shorts and Jogging shirts. They belong on a race track. This is a beauty contest when all's said and done. I put 1 first with a provisor for breed standard. I think we should all try and breed to the standard and not what effect a dog will have on our breeding program. My other pet hate is a dog that looks like a Greyhound, One sees many dogs with straight backs, Greyhounds in minature.

 

[Grumpy]

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I've never judged dogs so this is purely hypothetical, but being invoved in native ponies where you are looking at pure breeds, I think type is crucial as it does give you the overall picture of what you're looking for.

Although I think temperament is really  the most important thing in a dog, I'm not sure how accurately it can be assessed in the ring.

Correct conformation should give good movement, and I would have thought that head, feet etc. are part of conformation - but maybe they are always considered seperately.

It's good manners for dog and handler to be well turned out - I ve been quite surprised at how scruffy some people are (not necessarily in whippets ).

These are just my views as a newbie, will be fascinated to see other opinions.

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If you have never judged dogs 'fable' - you're spot on with your list !!

Questions? for those lists not beginning with Breed type......

We have all seen 'mongrels' or 'lurchers' with lovely 'conformation'

and sound movement.

Should any of this come before......'BREED TYPE'......?

So what makes one breed different to another...???

 

[Seraphina]

[
My main pet hate is seeing exhibiters in the ring in jeans and tee shirts, and chewing Gum.  They cannot have any respect for the judge their dogs or themselves. One also sees exhibiters in shorts and Jogging shirts. They belong on a race track. This is a beauty contest when all's said and done.

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Yes but that is your personal feeling. I also do not like slobs, but dogs in conformation classes should not be penalized for their handlers' bad taste. (w00t)

In any case I think it is more suitable to wear shorts than evening gowns, which i heard is happening in the USA. After all showing of dogs is a sport, you need to race around the ring. (Well, we race faster than you do ) And our clothes should reflect that.

 

[Seraphina]

If you have never judged dogs 'fable' - you're spot on with your list !!Questions? for those lists not beginning with Breed type......

We have all seen 'mongrels' or 'lurchers' with lovely 'conformation'

and sound movement.

Should any of this come before......'BREED TYPE'......?

So what makes one breed different to another...???

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What do you think makes 'BREED TYPE'.??? Surely it is the conformation. The correct Whippet is made by the shape and size of his bones, and the muscles which hold it all together. The topline is determined by shape of his spine etc. And sorry, but I do disagree with the statement that dogs can have good conformation and not be sound. Some faults of conformation may not be immediately apparent when dog is still, and even less if he is skillfully set up, but that is why we move our dogs to reveal these conformation faults.

 

[parnew]

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What a great thread.

In all cases we must look at breed function, running down rabbits and other small game. So movement is the most important, if they can't run ( or move ) then their conformation is not right. If they are over angulated behind then their hocks will not stand the hard running required to catch game. ( we raced greyhounds before owning whippets )

If you don't have breed type then there is no comformation. As for presentation, I feel that both dog and handler should go hand in hand to look there best.

Temperment...... well if you can't touch them how can you judge them...

 

[mikadene]

Yes but that is your personal feeling.  I also do not like slobs, but dogs in conformation classes should not be penalized for their handlers' bad  taste.  (w00t) In any case I think it is more suitable to wear shorts than evening gowns, which i heard is happening in the USA.  After all showing of dogs is a sport, you need to race around the ring.  (Well, we race faster than you do   )  And our clothes should reflect that.

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I don't think I do bad moving round the ring considering my condition lol. Some are worse off than I. When I read Movement in this list and so many have placed it near to the top of their lists, I have to think to myself why so much emphacis on Gaiting. A Whippet is not a trotting dog and no Whippet can catch a rabbit gaiting. The true gaiting dogs like the herding dogs can be evaluated correctly when they trot or gait. To Evaluate a Whippet one must see it run or gallop which equals speed. Maybe a speed test is more revealing about how the dog is put together than a trot around the ring. One may think this is twaddle but one needs to think about it carefully befor casting this thought out of the window. I have judged a true trotting dog for the last 35 years and know what to look for when seeing a dog gait. Just my personal Thoughts

:cheers:

 

[urchin]

Wow - so much technical stuff! You know, i've tried to read and understand the breed standard - but it seems that, unless you already know what they're talking about it doesn't make a lot of sense...this from the kennel club:

Head and Skull

Long and lean, flat on top, tapering to muzzle with slight stop, rather wide between the eyes, jaws powerful and clean-cut, nose black, in blues a bluish colour permitted, in livers a nose of the same colour, in whites or parti-colour a butterfly nose permissible.

Forequarters

Shoulders oblique and muscular, blades carried up to top of spine, where they are clearly defined. Forelegs straight and upright, front not too wide, pasterns strong with slight spring, elbows set well under body.

Body

A very deep with plenty of heart room, brisket deep, well defined, broad back, firm, somewhat long, showing definite arch over loin but not humped. Loin giving impression of strength and power, ribs well sprung, muscled on back.

Hindquarters

Strong, broad across thighs, stifles well bent, hocks well let down, well developed second thighs, dog able to stand over a lot of ground and show great driving power.

There seems to be a lot of 'well' this and 'slight' that! none of which gives an insight to someone who doesn't already know roughly what they're looking for!

Is there anywhere with diagrams? particularly with comparisons so those not in the know can see the difference between a 'somewhat long' back and one that is presumably 'overly long' or 'underly long'

This is a very interesting thread though... i've always wondered what gets priority as clearly very few dogs would score perfect on all counts

 

[stephen mason]

Wow - so much technical stuff! You know, i've tried to read and understand the breed standard - but it seems that, unless you already know what they're talking about it doesn't make a lot of sense...this from the kennel club:
Head and Skull

Long and lean, flat on top, tapering to muzzle with slight stop, rather wide between the eyes, jaws powerful and clean-cut, nose black, in blues a bluish colour permitted, in livers a nose of the same colour, in whites or parti-colour a butterfly nose permissible.

Forequarters

Shoulders oblique and muscular, blades carried up to top of spine, where they are clearly defined. Forelegs straight and upright, front not too wide, pasterns strong with slight spring, elbows set well under body.

Body

A very deep with plenty of heart room, brisket deep, well defined, broad back, firm, somewhat long, showing definite arch over loin but not humped. Loin giving impression of strength and power, ribs well sprung, muscled on back.

Hindquarters

Strong, broad across thighs, stifles well bent, hocks well let down, well developed second thighs, dog able to stand over a lot of ground and show great driving power.

There seems to be a lot of 'well' this and 'slight' that! none of which gives an insight to someone who doesn't already know roughly what they're looking for!

Is there anywhere with diagrams? particularly with comparisons so those not in the know can see the difference between a 'somewhat long' back and one that is presumably 'overly long' or 'underly long'

This is a very interesting thread though... i've always wondered what gets priority as clearly very few dogs would score perfect on all counts

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. A bit late but here goes:1;5;3;4;2;6:7 Regards, Stephen

 

[posh totty]

what a brilliant thread, very interesting and informative :thumbsup:

 

[Karen]

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I've never judged dogs so this is purely hypothetical, but being invoved in native ponies where you are looking at pure breeds, I think type is crucial as it does give you the overall picture of what you're looking for.

Although I think temperament is really  the most important thing in a dog, I'm not sure how accurately it can be assessed in the ring.

Correct conformation should give good movement, and I would have thought that head, feet etc. are part of conformation - but maybe they are always considered seperately.

It's good manners for dog and handler to be well turned out - I ve been quite surprised at how scruffy some people are (not necessarily in whippets ).

These are just my views as a newbie, will be fascinated to see other opinions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

If you have never judged dogs 'fable' - you're spot on with your list !!

Questions? for those lists not beginning with Breed type......

We have all seen 'mongrels' or 'lurchers' with lovely 'conformation'

and sound movement.

Should any of this come before......'BREED TYPE'......?

So what makes one breed different to another...???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

​

Remember Grumpy Fable is spot on with her list in your opinion :thumbsup:

 

[dawn]

Wow - so much technical stuff! You know, i've tried to read and understand the breed standard - but it seems that, unless you already know what they're talking about it doesn't make a lot of sense...this from the kennel club:
[SIZE=14pt]Head and Skull[/SIZE]

Long and lean, flat on top, tapering to muzzle with slight stop, rather wide between the eyes, jaws powerful and clean-cut, nose black, in blues a bluish colour permitted, in livers a nose of the same colour, in whites or parti-colour a butterfly nose permissible.

 

Forequarters

Shoulders oblique and muscular, blades carried up to top of spine, where they are clearly defined. Forelegs straight and upright, front not too wide, pasterns strong with slight spring, elbows set well under body.

 

Body

A very deep with plenty of heart room, brisket deep, well defined, broad back, firm, somewhat long, showing definite arch over loin but not humped. Loin giving impression of strength and power, ribs well sprung, muscled on back.

 

Hindquarters

Strong, broad across thighs, stifles well bent, hocks well let down, well developed second thighs, dog able to stand over a lot of ground and show great driving power.

+

There is a Illustrated Breed Standard produce by the (UK) Breed Council which 'does what it says on the tin'

BTW

The 'new' whippet breed standard will be published in July (I have heard) - I don't know what the differences are - we will have to wait and see exactly what the KC have accepted as the changes.

 

[05whippet]

Urchin,some of the better Whippet books do also have drawings of how a Whippet should and should not look too,but these are obviously in the eyes of the authors.

"The Whippet" by Bo Bengston is a very good informative book and shows good diagrams in the Showing and Judging chapter as well as influential kennels,so too does "Whippets Today" by Patsy Gilmour.

 

[Seraphina]

[When I read Movement in this list and so many have placed it near to the top of their lists, I have to think to myself why so much emphacis on Gaiting.  A Whippet is not a trotting dog and no Whippet can catch a rabbit gaiting. The true gaiting dogs like the herding dogs can be evaluated correctly when they trot or gait. To Evaluate a Whippet one must see it run or gallop which equals speed. Maybe a speed test is more revealing about how the dog is put together than a trot around the ring. One may think this is twaddle but one needs to think about it carefully befor casting this thought out of the window.  I have judged a true trotting dog for the last 35 years and know what to look for when seeing a dog gait.  Just my personal Thoughts:cheers:

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I agree totally that Whippet's natural movement is full gallop. I can just see us all trying to show our whippets in gallop (w00t) . I think the French have it right when they require a dog to pass some sort of speed test before his championship title is ratified.

We should not expect Whippet to trott like GSD, but trotting still shows some problems

 

[Seraphina]

[
This is an interesting take on dog showing, and slightly different from the stated goal of dog showing in Norway (perhaps even Scandinavia?). Here, you are supposed to judge the breeding result - i.e. it is not assumed that a good show dog is necessarily a good producer, although it is perhaps an indication that his sire and/or dam are (at least when it comes to conformation).

Also, there are many things that cannot be assessed in a show ring (especially with regards to health and temperament), so I would not take show ring success as a definite proof of a dog's worth as a producer.

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Hmmm....... I think we are still talking pretty much about the same thing = quality of the dog should be paramount. Such things as too long nails, which are not inherited, are of no importance. By the way, some people would probably say that my dogs' nails are too long. But I realised that if cut them "properly" my dogs would slip and fall when running, as they use them to get grip. Look at these photos

 

[mikadene]

[

I agree totally that Whippet's natural movement is full gallop. I can just see us all trying to show our whippets in gallop (w00t) . I think the French have it right when they require a dog to pass some sort of speed test before his championship title is ratified.

We should not expect Whippet to trott like GSD, but trotting still shows some problems

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well would this idea of gaining some sort of racing test suit everyone, I think not. Mind you it is done in Gundogs so why not Whippets lol. Just kidding.There is room for the obligatory gait round the ring and yes it does show up faults in the construction of the dog and also problems the dog may have. Only at the last show one dog was lamn, and I spotted it straight away and so did the judge. The high lifting action of the front legs occassionally called hackneying is caused by the wrong angulation of the should with the upper arm. Strange though I have seen this action actually being applauded in another country. Elbows and hocks can be evaluated as being true and sound. Why though do Whippets have to move so fast. One can see just the same at a slower speed in fact more at times than running round the ring. ( That's why I can't run a GSD now lol) too fast for me to keep up lol. Someone mentioned a change in standard. Why change ? What will the Breed council change.?

This is a good debate many thanks some food for thought.

:cheers:

 

[firesprite]

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i have english pointers also and know that if the confirmation is naff the so also is its breed standard as the dog is unfit for its purpose. Might look pretty as a picture but if the shoulder angulation is incorrect your dog just cant do what it was bred for, ie run all day for pointers or run short and sweet for running dogs. The knock on from poor angulation affects the rest of the dogs movement, ie pointers that cant move properly and then you see those hackneyed specimens that seem IMO to be regularly placed where i wouldnt give them space in the line up if i was judging! See those dogs a few years down the line and notice the deterioration of movement due to bone wear, or of course, those with kennel blindness you can see it carried on for furture generations in poor breeding.

Rant over. <grin>

 

[doris]

what a great thread, especially for know-not-much's like me! :wacko:

for what it's worth (not much, I know!), I think that it has to be built like, look like, and move like a whippet to be a whippet! if it ain't got all three, then it ain't a show whippet. I think that those 3 points are streets ahead of what the handler is wearing or if the dog looks like it just left the pooch parlour :blink:

As long as it doesn't run away or bite you then I would assume that its ok, cos from all the showing I've seen, whippets aren't the most expressive of breeds - not like the happy, huggy dogs we have at home :huggles:

and as for colour, well of course it doesnt count! even though I really want a nice little dark faced brindle show dog one day :- "

sorry the list isn't in numbers but I can't remember which one was which (w00t)

 

[dessie]

Why though do Whippets have to move so fast. One can see just the same at a slower speed in fact more at times than running round the ring.

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Don't know about others but I show mine at the appropriate pace for each dog. I have two long striding, forward going ones (1 dog, 1 bitch) who will pace if I do not go at their natural speed, which is an extended trot that I cannot keep up with by walking, so it would be pointless me strolling round the ring with them. IMO you should go at the speed that suits your particular dog and there is nothing worse than seeing a dog that wants to go faster being throttled to the point that it cannot swallow by its handler who thinks that the best way to control it is by creeping round the ring with the dog strung up on a fine chain!

 

[Karen]

Why though do Whippets have to move so fast. One can see just the same at a slower speed in fact more at times than running round the ring.

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Don't know about others but I show mine at the appropriate pace for each dog. I have two long striding, forward going ones (1 dog, 1 bitch) who will pace if I do not go at their natural speed, which is an extended trot that I cannot keep up with by walking, so it would be pointless me strolling round the ring with them. IMO you should go at the speed that suits your particular dog and there is nothing worse than seeing a dog that wants to go faster being throttled to the point that it cannot swallow by its handler who thinks that the best way to control it is by creeping round the ring with the dog strung up on a fine chain!

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Yes agree with Dessie here. I cannot keep up with my dogs walking they need to be gaited in the ring in a way that is comfortable for them. If I had a dog that looked better at a slower speed then I would adjust my speed for that dog. Frodo wants to throw his legs forward and cover the ground front and rear. Many a good dog IMO has been spoiled by tugging them back and making them clop along. Which is why I put presentation in the list.

 

[mikadene]

Why though do Whippets have to move so fast. One can see just the same at a slower speed in fact more at times than running round the ring.

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Don't know about others but I show mine at the appropriate pace for each dog. I have two long striding, forward going ones (1 dog, 1 bitch) who will pace if I do not go at their natural speed, which is an extended trot that I cannot keep up with by walking, so it would be pointless me strolling round the ring with them. IMO you should go at the speed that suits your particular dog and there is nothing worse than seeing a dog that wants to go faster being throttled to the point that it cannot swallow by its handler who thinks that the best way to control it is by creeping round the ring with the dog strung up on a fine chain!

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Yes agree with Dessie here. I cannot keep up with my dogs walking they need to be gaited in the ring in a way that is comfortable for them. If I had a dog that looked better at a slower speed then I would adjust my speed for that dog. Frodo wants to throw his legs forward and cover the ground front and rear. Many a good dog IMO has been spoiled by tugging them back and making them clop along. Which is why I put presentation in the list.

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That I can agree with to some degree, but how many times have you seen dogs moving far too fast for a comfortable gait for the dog. They are not natural gaiters and when the ring goes round most handlers seem to think they have to keep up with the one in front or they will be penalised. This does happen in some judges minds from conversations I have had with them. For a dog not to keep up with the crowd means it can't cut the chase so to speak. It happens in all breeds not just whippets. When Judging I ask my handlers to slow down for at least one round so I can see natural movement. Then off they race again . The best time for me to observe movement is when a dog first enters the ring. Whilst the handler is sorting themselves out, this is where one see natuaral movement of a dog. Skilfull handlers can hide a multitude of problems but not when they are putting their ring numbers on lol. I don't think speed dictates how far a dog throws it's front legs fwd. It's the angulation that dictates this. Also at speed a dog can seem to throw it's legs fwd but when looking closer it is moving the shoulder fwd and not the upper arm. My usual method of evaluation is to take a video of my dog moving at differing speeds and then making my mind up how to show them. Video is such a wonderful tool. When my son and daughter were growing up and entering in Junior handling classes it was the video I took of them handling that became a great tool in the teaching process. One is 32 and the other is 28 and both can handle better than I now lol.

:cheers: