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Question to you lurcher people, is it true the smithfeild/norfolk lurchers are the best all round lurchers? i know in C/W you can pick up lurchers ten a penny but but which are the decent breeds?
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Smithfeild/norfolk
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Good question..though so subjective! Look forward to reading the responses. :cheers:
Hi Paul
I have never heard of the smithfield/norfolk lurchers, but then Im no expert. I guess its all down to personal preference at the end of the day and depends what you want your lurcher for. I have a bedlington whippet cross who I put to an irish terrier greyhound and have one of her sons. He then fathered a litter to a pure greyhound and when I advertised them in C/W i had so many replies that I could have sold 3 litters. All of the people who came to see the pups bought one and said they were pretty damned near perfect, but as I said before, I guess its just down to personal choice. I was told to name my price for the stud dog, not that I would EVER sell him, but he seems to be an ok sort of dog!
I have never heard of the smithfield/norfolk lurchers, but then Im no expert. I guess its all down to personal preference at the end of the day and depends what you want your lurcher for. I have a bedlington whippet cross who I put to an irish terrier greyhound and have one of her sons. He then fathered a litter to a pure greyhound and when I advertised them in C/W i had so many replies that I could have sold 3 litters. All of the people who came to see the pups bought one and said they were pretty damned near perfect, but as I said before, I guess its just down to personal choice. I was told to name my price for the stud dog, not that I would EVER sell him, but he seems to be an ok sort of dog!
Hi PAUL,
YES, quite a subject for debate, and remember, "there has never been a pancake fried so thin that it didnt have more than one side to it". As all lurcherfolk view there dogs with partisan eyes, some will argue for one type, some for another, and there will be those who will bemoan the idea of there being such a thing as an all-round lurcher, the latter however, are usually the unfortunate people who have never had the privilage to own or see an example. I will always argue in favour for there being such a diverse lurcher, as I have seen many, and owned some, but I would not argue that a Smithfield/Norfolk lurcher is best. A lot of composites will perform a miriad of working/hunting disciplines, but there are few that will don the acolade of good all-rounders, even less of great all-rounders. The best example I have witnessed were from lurcher x lurcher matings, with various breeds in their genotype as deerhound, beardie collie and Bedlington. I think a lot also has to do with the location where the dogs live and hunt, no one can expect a lurcher to be an all-rounder if there is not the available quarry there for to hunt. There are so many factors that go into the creation of an all-round lurcher, so stereoing one or two particlular crosses as being the best would be a sweeping statement, and one which will be proved wrong time and time again. It will be interesting to see what other crosses come up in healthy debate to your answer....
YES, quite a subject for debate, and remember, "there has never been a pancake fried so thin that it didnt have more than one side to it". As all lurcherfolk view there dogs with partisan eyes, some will argue for one type, some for another, and there will be those who will bemoan the idea of there being such a thing as an all-round lurcher, the latter however, are usually the unfortunate people who have never had the privilage to own or see an example. I will always argue in favour for there being such a diverse lurcher, as I have seen many, and owned some, but I would not argue that a Smithfield/Norfolk lurcher is best. A lot of composites will perform a miriad of working/hunting disciplines, but there are few that will don the acolade of good all-rounders, even less of great all-rounders. The best example I have witnessed were from lurcher x lurcher matings, with various breeds in their genotype as deerhound, beardie collie and Bedlington. I think a lot also has to do with the location where the dogs live and hunt, no one can expect a lurcher to be an all-rounder if there is not the available quarry there for to hunt. There are so many factors that go into the creation of an all-round lurcher, so stereoing one or two particlular crosses as being the best would be a sweeping statement, and one which will be proved wrong time and time again. It will be interesting to see what other crosses come up in healthy debate to your answer....
What exactly is a Smithfield/Norfolk lurcher?
this lurcher fits the description of a Norfolk, correct colour, size, coat but is as much a Norfolk as me....I bred her, she is a third generation line bred cross, originating from deerhound crosses on her mothers side, and Gypsie bred bob tailed collie crosses on her fathers side, and bred down to the size I wanted for all round work. She was a fair example of an all-rounder.
this lurcher fits the description of a Norfolk, correct colour, size, coat but is as much a Norfolk as me....I bred her, she is a third generation line bred cross, originating from deerhound crosses on her mothers side, and Gypsie bred bob tailed collie crosses on her fathers side, and bred down to the size I wanted for all round work. She was a fair example of an all-rounder.
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Hi all just had alook at afew past articles where it is argued that lurchers sold under the term "norfolk" automaticaly meens there a smithfield ( as in the originals lurchers from norfolk that where bred from smithfield collies) where most of them are not , i suppose Norfolk / East Anglian dogs always have a good reputation because the hares over there are plenytfull & supposed to be the best( as in strength & speed ) & breed lines of dogs that are brought up on hares are better , i think that our freinds from that area could possibly define this discusion a bit better, but it is a bit mind boggling to a pure bred whippet owner like me who might one day opt to buy a lurcher for a change
Hi Paul,
when talking about all-round lurchers, there are more to these dogs "bows" than just walking up on a squatting hare, no matter which part of the country it comes from, if its a hare courser you think you might require one day, get a saluki cross, but you wont have an all-rounder....Dont forget temperament, you would require nothing less than the excellent temperaments you have at the moment with your whippets, something articles by hunters tend not to highlight.
when talking about all-round lurchers, there are more to these dogs "bows" than just walking up on a squatting hare, no matter which part of the country it comes from, if its a hare courser you think you might require one day, get a saluki cross, but you wont have an all-rounder....Dont forget temperament, you would require nothing less than the excellent temperaments you have at the moment with your whippets, something articles by hunters tend not to highlight.
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Perhaps not the right time to ask - as it will only add to debate (then again, why not 
), but why has the "bull cross" type become so seemingly popular?
), but why has the "bull cross" type become so seemingly popular?Hi Babs,
the bull cross has become popular, because some people believe it adds extra guts, fire and determination into the lurcher, especially when used for work on fox or deer. It isnt a new concept, I remember see-ing my first bull x greyhound in the early eighties, resembling a greyhound with a bull terriers head,
:thumbsup:
Healthy debate is what we like to see, Im sure someone will send in thinking lurchers possessing bull terrier in their breeding are the best
the bull cross has become popular, because some people believe it adds extra guts, fire and determination into the lurcher, especially when used for work on fox or deer. It isnt a new concept, I remember see-ing my first bull x greyhound in the early eighties, resembling a greyhound with a bull terriers head,
:thumbsup:
Healthy debate is what we like to see, Im sure someone will send in thinking lurchers possessing bull terrier in their breeding are the best
What I am going to explain now, I ask you to run past your own Judge (i.e. Commonsense) and discard any prejudices you have acquired from reading too many comic books on lurchers. If it does not make sense then dismiss me as just another "charlatan", but please if it makes sense but had never occurred to you before give me some credit for knowing what I'm talking about.DOXHOPE said:
To catch a rabbit, you'll agree, the dog needs to be quick into its stride, early paced, quick off the mark- call it what you like. It also needs to be exceedingly agile and have a sharp mouth. This is especially so in small paddocks with thick hedges and bramble bushes everywhere; what I call " one strike and your out territory".
However, to catch a hare, on say the fens for example, now you need high speed ground covering cruising speed, rather than just blistering early pace. You can afford to wait your opportunity to strike - and the rash dog that fails to grasp his hare is in for a real gruelling if he persists in running in the style you would a rabbit in a small field.
Now for the bit that perhaps hasn't occurred to you before, whilst a dog is sailing through the air in long ground covering strides; can he accelerate (i.e. increase speed) or change direction? My contention is that he can only increase speed by exerting pressure to the ground and the same applies to changing direction, so he can do neither in mid flight. So logically the more often the foot touches the ground - the more agile and early paced the dog.
The old genuine Norfolk stamp lurcher was a specialist rabbitting dog built with a long muscular back and relatively shortish quick striding legs -touching the ground often (as per famous photo of warrener Reeves). It was not a ground covering, hare coursing type, in its original form. (REMEMBER THIS WHEN "CHARLATANS" CALL BEARDIExGREYHOUNDS "NORFOLK-TYPE").
However, the Smithfield drovers dog created by an import of Belgian cattle dog (a cousin of the Bouvoir De Flanders) was a tall leggy breed as was required to look across the backs of huge flocks of sheep to see where they were needed and the leg it round to be in the right place in time. (A Beardy is too short for such work).
Incidentally, our lurchers today will often stand on their back legs in the lane like circus dogs for several minutes to get a view of what game is afoot the other side of a low hedge or stone wall. I put this inherited trait down to their Smithfield drover ancestors.
So, when about 180 years ago the old timers out crossed their short-legged rabbitting dogs to the leggy Smithfield drovers dog as well as increasing the pastoral brain they were after they inadvertently adapted the anatomy from pure rabbitter to more versatile - capable of catching fen hares as well. So, it was the Smithfield type lurcher that brought the reputation for hare catching, being more up on the leg and the term Norfolk type should only apply to the pure rabbiting stamp with relatively shorter legs.
The Tumbler was a smaller much lighter, exceedingly agile, early paced rabbitting stamp developed for use in small paddocks of the one strike and your out variety as opposed to the more spacious open sandy heath and soft soil fens where the massive Norfolk-type operated.
With minimum but judicious use of sighthound blood, by blending these (Norfolk, Smithfield and Tumbler) and a few other distinctive old strains that unfortunately never boasted a distinctive name (particularly the old harsh coated black&tan strains and the flat red coated (derived from the old Welsh Hillman Shepherd/Drover dogs) strains our relatives adapted the best qualities of these old-fashioned (horses for courses) bloodlines into a more versatile strain capable of catching any game on any ground. They did this at a time when others were allowing them to die out, or breeding them into pure sighthounds by excessive outcrossing.
It is too complex to explain here exactly how they achieved this so you'll have to wait for my book, if I ever get it finished. But, briefly they focused on brain, stealth, agility and striking ability and feet that could run over flintstone/chalk, believing these qualities could help conserve the athleticism necessary. In other words they bred catch dogs to fill the cooking-pot when everybody else was breeding sporting dogs.
A traveller, who loved his sporting hare coursing with a passion and was one of the best raconteurs I've ever encountered would describe with such enthusiasm a heroic, gigantic course where the hare takes the dog for a six minute tour of the countryside - describing every twist and turn, ditch, gate, hedge, and fence only to finish with the immortal words -it got away into the game crop, but oh what a course, did everything bar kill it. At which point I would interject, " but I CAN'T EAT THAT". For some reason he took to ripping his shirt off and wanting to fight whenever he saw me coming. I did recommend friends to buy pups from some breeding he did, when they where going into match dogs, but advised them to choose for striking ability. I even used a descendant as an outcross since it killed over 50 hares before it was 16months old.
Bollocks....lol
The most influential crosses on the lurcher scene today are the saluki, bull, and collie what more could anyone want from a lurcher you have the brains, the stamina and the do or die attitude....although its not always the case...
These smithfield/norfolks, who owns them?....I'd personally like to see them excel at anything, probably rabbiting is there best attribute...its easy to comment on breeds, but how many have actually owned what there commenting on..???
The most influential crosses on the lurcher scene today are the saluki, bull, and collie what more could anyone want from a lurcher you have the brains, the stamina and the do or die attitude....although its not always the case...
These smithfield/norfolks, who owns them?....I'd personally like to see them excel at anything, probably rabbiting is there best attribute...its easy to comment on breeds, but how many have actually owned what there commenting on..???
Hi Paul, Ask a hundred people the same question and you'll get 100 different answers, As has been said in the past, good allrounders are made not bred. Admittedly the basic ingredients must be there in the first place but it's what you do with them that counts. If you're looking for a lurcher,look long and hard at what you require the dog to do. Don't be misled by tales of super lurchers(even though some lurchers are even brighter than their owners) Having had lurchers and whippets over the years I can recommend both. I've yet to see one that wasn't good at something. Can David Beckham ride a bike? make your own mind up and enjoy. Cheers.Growler said:
the reply i put was an extract that i found on the net, not through my own experiance or knowlege of the breeds. what persentage of the saluki, bull, collie would you have in a dog? i think a 1/4 of each to 3/4 greyhound is easily enough, any more than that and ya bound to get problems but thats just my opinion.Growler said:
Bes the best all-rond lurcher Ive owned, or seen. Bred from a deerhound greyhound first cross to a lurcher x lurcher that had collie in her. I ran this bitch until she was thirteen years old, she was the smallest of the litter when born, and was only 23 and a half inches, I cried like a baby when she went. Wrote this poem when she died.
A BLACK SLEEK SHEENE
WITH EARS PRICKED AND EYES BIG AND WIDE
THE FIRST OF MANY, SHE WAS MY PRIDE
A HEART WAS BROKEN, AND TEARS WERE SHED
THE DAY SHE DIED, A GARDEN HER BED
CONVERSATIONS WE HAD WHEN WE WERE ALONE
IN THE DEAD OF THE NIGHT, BEHIND A SCOTTISH WALL OF DRYSTONE
HER BEGGING FACE STARES AT ME WITH A SMILE
FOR A RUB OF HERE EAR, A PAT ON THE HEAD
THIS IS ALL THAT SHE WANTED, SHE NEW SHE WAS MINE
I KEPT HER, I FED HER, I PROTECTED HER
ONLY ONE THING WAS IMPOSSIBLE AT THE END
BUT YOU WILL UNDERSTAND, WONT YOU BES
A BLACK SLEEK SHEENE
WITH EARS PRICKED AND EYES BIG AND WIDE
THE FIRST OF MANY, SHE WAS MY PRIDE
A HEART WAS BROKEN, AND TEARS WERE SHED
THE DAY SHE DIED, A GARDEN HER BED
CONVERSATIONS WE HAD WHEN WE WERE ALONE
IN THE DEAD OF THE NIGHT, BEHIND A SCOTTISH WALL OF DRYSTONE
HER BEGGING FACE STARES AT ME WITH A SMILE
FOR A RUB OF HERE EAR, A PAT ON THE HEAD
THIS IS ALL THAT SHE WANTED, SHE NEW SHE WAS MINE
I KEPT HER, I FED HER, I PROTECTED HER
ONLY ONE THING WAS IMPOSSIBLE AT THE END
BUT YOU WILL UNDERSTAND, WONT YOU BES
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Doxhope...you made me cry! However, it is a lovely poem, about clearly an exeptional bitch :wub: :wub: :wub: , and I forgive you as in balance most of your posts are either informative and knowledgeable or make me laugh.
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Was expecting to find tumbleweed blowing through this thread :- " :- " :- " ...it was taking so long for you all to get fired up about this.
Its brilliant well done, some of the quotes have been inspired...yes, I know the main subject is the working ability of type but its the character coming through in the writing that I am particularly enjoying.
Favourite so far has to be harryjay's about some lurchers being more intelligent than their owners, though I think that may be something of an understatement.
How important in a working lurcher would general temperament be? I accept a lot of working dogs do not live in the house, but some do have to fit into family environments, and most will come into contact with other dogs. I wondered, say in the bull crosses, is there a danger of a nasty or suspicious nature, leading to an agressive dog? Or is the high % of greyhound in most crosses enough to ensure an even balance? Is it nurture or nature which forms the character of a working lurcher? :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
Its brilliant well done, some of the quotes have been inspired...yes, I know the main subject is the working ability of type but its the character coming through in the writing that I am particularly enjoying.
Favourite so far has to be harryjay's about some lurchers being more intelligent than their owners, though I think that may be something of an understatement.
How important in a working lurcher would general temperament be? I accept a lot of working dogs do not live in the house, but some do have to fit into family environments, and most will come into contact with other dogs. I wondered, say in the bull crosses, is there a danger of a nasty or suspicious nature, leading to an agressive dog? Or is the high % of greyhound in most crosses enough to ensure an even balance? Is it nurture or nature which forms the character of a working lurcher? :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
See Bappit, you never know do you, it will further suprise you that I have wrote a lot of poetry, some of which has been published..
All jokes aside, I am a great believer in good temperament being a virtue, and a must in a lurcher, whether a working dog or not, this hypothesis at times has caused many arguments with other lurcher folk and myself. That is why I use deerhounds in all my lurcher breeding, I get what I want in a dog as a worker, and have the added satisfaction knowing my dogs are safe with my kids, my cats etc. To some, a lurcher killing a cat or biting the next door neighbours bairn is something to brag about, but never a cloak I have worn. Lurchers should not be social misfits, or physical or psychological nightmares, apart from their hunting virtues they should be sound, have good structure and temperament and be a joy to own.....
All jokes aside, I am a great believer in good temperament being a virtue, and a must in a lurcher, whether a working dog or not, this hypothesis at times has caused many arguments with other lurcher folk and myself. That is why I use deerhounds in all my lurcher breeding, I get what I want in a dog as a worker, and have the added satisfaction knowing my dogs are safe with my kids, my cats etc. To some, a lurcher killing a cat or biting the next door neighbours bairn is something to brag about, but never a cloak I have worn. Lurchers should not be social misfits, or physical or psychological nightmares, apart from their hunting virtues they should be sound, have good structure and temperament and be a joy to own.....
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