Stud Dogs

[wild whippies]

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I've recently bought a copy of The Dog and it's Genome as some light reading for Tony. This book has been written by those individuals who have been involved in reearching the DNA map of the dog (i.e. esteemed geneticists, molecular biologists, veterinary clinicians along with a mass of canine organisations, breed clubs, universities and research centres)

It's been damning to read in parts as it gives a lot of explanation as to why so many pedigree Kennel Club registered dogs are so compromised and why disease and disorders are prevelant within so many breeds and also that this will increase as time progresses and gene pools become smaller.

One comment that I think is of great relevance to non-pedigree whippet racing,

Genetic Diversity

Problems with genetic diversity occur due to the selection of breeding stock, with the popular sire effect being the major factor affecting diversity in dog breeds. If a popular stud dog contributes a disproportionate nuumber of genes to the gene pool, it skews trhe gene pool in his direction. This can increase deleterious (harmful) geens due to the founders effect. It also limits breed diversity because other unrelated quality males are displaced from breeding to the popular sire. (Bell 2003)

Currently, we get much of our genetic diveristy through the use of greyhounds (a breed which has one of the highest amounts of genetic diversibility) and also because in times past, we weren't ameniable to using a particular stud dog that was say at the other end of the country. This large pool of genetic material has enabled us to produce dogs that are generally disease free and of good sound stock.

However, I can't help but notice that many will pick the popular stud dog on the basis of what it's currently sired or it's racing ability without any consideration of the long term detrimental effect this could have to non-ped whippet racing if everyone chooses to use it.

I also note the efforts of individuals like Vicky who is going out her way to try and promote dogs that have been overlooked or long forgotten as suitable stud dogs for the future, as we have seen yet again, this individual indeed practices what she preaches. :thumbsup:

As such, I would like to appeal to all those who own a non-ped whippet, if you have a dog that you would be ameniable to use at stud, please promote it. While you may not feel your dog may be chosen over the latest craze, you may be pleasantly surprised by those individuals who use a lot of forethought in their breeding. For one your dog will introduce more genetic diversity than there would be if you don't promote it, which will eventually effect us all.

I do think those fortunate to have an esteemed stud dog should be careful and selective in it's use, in fact if those who retained a pup from their studs use would probably carry a higher regard with other racers....

For those with a bitch, put some thought into it, it's far too easy to jump on the bandwagon but how refreshing it would be if others just looked a little further afield.

I have to say, my own view on the likes of the Top stud and Top brood are of poor opinion, mainly for the reason that scoring is deemed on quantity not quality. I do not wish to be derogatory to these dogs as I do consider many to be fine sound dogs, but I'm sure you all can appreciate how this sways and skews the gene pool in these a particular dogs favour.

Praise be to the whippet organisations, for if they had placed in standards and restriction into the appearance of these dogs, we would be in as dire a situation as the pedigree dogs. Whilst the current requirement being ''of whippet-like appearance'', it enables the floodgates to remain wide open for dogs of such genetic diversity, it would be wise of us all to use this diversity as much as possible. :thumbsup:

Apologies for a lengthy post, but if I've inspired even just one individual to use a different stud or even a potential dog owner to put their dog to stud then I think this will have been well worth posting.

Jac

 

[rob67]

Interesting reading jac that makes a lot of sense. Wonder what percentage of the total number of non-ped dogs available are used as stud dogs? and how that might be compared with the percentage of grews that are used. Think it does encourage us to think about using different dogs, maybe this might dilute some of the genetic difficulties, like the myostatin 'bully' gene.?

chris

 

[Karen-Coral]

Quote.....

I have to say, my own view on the likes of the Top stud and Top brood are of poor opinion, mainly for the reason that scoring is deemed on quantity not quality. I do not wish to be derogatory to these dogs as I do consider many to be fine sound dogs, but I'm sure you all can appreciate how this sways and skews the gene pool in these a particular dogs favour.

:thumbsup:

 

[debbie]

having two stud dogs myself, i totally agree with you on these points, , if either oscar or buster are over used, then they would be alot less choice for their offspring, without interbreeding :thumbsup:

 

[Vicky]

Cracking post Jac :thumbsup:

What worries me about the decline in the non ped gene pool and it is understandable i suppose, years ago and it's been said on here a few time, dogs like Good as Gold, Tyrone & Marillion were highly used but what alarms me more about our current situation is that there is not the variety of bitches being used. Whereas years back a lot of club bitches were mated to what was thought a sire that would improve on the qualities she lacked, nowadays it's rare for a non open class bitch to be lined, hence closing the gene pool further, it's something i only recently gave much thought to, not only should we be encouraging a variety of studs but also a greater variety of bitches.

ETA. I don't think i was very clear in the last few sentences. What i'm trying to say is that years ago you could perhaps "get away with" using a handful of stud dogs as there was always different bitch lines to give variety in the gene pool, so now it's not just a case of "it's the way it's always been" because it hasn't.

 

[Vicky]

With regards to the stud & brood bitch comp's, i've said it on here time & time again, it's quite a farce. It would prove much more if dogs had a percentage score. The fact a dog has 40 pups scoring for it with 10 of those being champs does nothing for me, whereas a dog with only 3 champs from 5 pups says it all.

 

[wild whippies]

Think it does encourage us to think about using different dogs, maybe this might dilute some of the genetic difficulties, like the myostatin 'bully' gene.?
chris

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​

While the bully gene can be evident within close inbreeding, it's incidence is likelier due to the fact it requires 2 recessive genes to occur from both sire and dam to repoduce the double-muscling mutation. As has been demonstrated by the research in this area, the dogs possessing one of the recessive genes will generally be faster so it's perfectly possible for this anamoly to occur in even a wide gene pool and probably much more likelier to occur if stocky built fast dogs and bitches are bred together (i.e. breeding fastest to the fastest especially in those dogs that physically look like they possess the 1 mutated gene) if you see what I mean?

There's also the variables within how the anamoly presents that makes me wonder if there's a need for further research (i.e. not all dogs are overshot and some are not overtly compromised in muscle mass either)

I have approached the genome project to see if their research on the myostatin mutation has ceased and if not would they be interested in more DNA samples because I can't help but think they looked in the wrong place when they was collecting samples of whippet DNA for this particular research. The fact they found no cases within pedigree whippets within the UK meerly confirms this.

If they are interested, I'll be approaching you all with the hope of obtaining DNA samples, something I imagine everyone would be co-operative with, not only for the benefit of whippet racing but also for the use this research might have to those humans who have been afflicted with a similar condition. :thumbsup:

What's my bigger concern is basically the future and the changes that have occured that I think could start problems. Like I've said previously, the greyhound is enabling a wider gene pool but what if restriction of it's use was emposed? ( a genuine possibility with situations of late) :unsure:

 

[wild whippies]

I should also add that when certain genetic traits have been attempted to be bred out there has been some drastic counter effects. One such case where a relatively minor defect that was relatively rare in it's occurance was radically bred out of a particular pedigree breed and consequently replaced with a devastating genetic defect that has rendered breeders with an inability to breed out. (due to the smaller gene pool produced)

The main focus should be to maintain as a wide a pool as possible not constrain, especially with such a condition that has no real detrimental effect to the dogs health.

 

[fallenangel]

Well with having mostly bitches here the stud og post is of real intersted. I allso as most of my dogs have the same cracket it or crazy craker in there breading as allthough they are excalt dogs it importants to me to breed away from the domint lines in the breeding. allthough Helish (Ruby) will be a year or 2 yet before she has a litter I am watching with a keen eye on dogs on offer and allso looking at dogs from a few years back that maybe I didnt see run but have qulitys Ruby doesnt have.

I look at whippet breeding the ame way we did when we breed and showed cats we looked for the qulitys or girl didnt have in her mate and fingers cross some of the litter would have good pints from both. you can take the best dog and bitch in the world and get nothing speacila then again you can take 2 ok club dogs and if the mixs is right get fantastic dogs. so we will be looking for differnt things for each stud dog we use with each of our girls. a dog that would compliment Ruby would be no good for picaninny (ninny) and neather might be a good match for the top stud dogs. Tittles or not top stud or not its more important there a good match with each other

 

[rodders]

Jac both you and Vicky never fail to amaze me on your interest in whippet racing.Unlike the majority of us that have been concerned with owning hopefully a champ now,both you and Vicky show obvious concern of whippet racing in the future :thumbsup: It is people such as yourselves that take the time to express your views,and in turn make the rest of us folk think about the future of the sport. :thumbsup: Will be happy for my dogs to take part in any tests :thumbsup:

 

[Fleesh]

Two bitches here both of whose breeding seems different from the current "norm" and I have used three studs, all different from the "norm" at their time of being used.

However back down the lines there's no doubt dogs/bitches in their lines that are related to many of the great great grandparents of current dogs/bitches with similar dam/sire and littermates.

It would be interesting to see what effect their great great grandparents had in giving their gene pool similarities to "modern" gene pools and if there is any significant difference between theirs and their offsprings genes compared to the most common "modern" lines or whether it's too late to produce outcrosses even from them .

 

[wild whippies]

It would be interesting to see what effect their great great grandparents had in giving their gene pool similarities to "modern" gene pools and if there is any significant difference between theirs and their offsprings genes compared to the most common "modern" lines or whether it's too late to produce outcrosses even from them  .

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​

From what I understand, Tony states that whenever you have a mating within the creation of each pup, 50% of the dam and 50% of the sires genetic material is lost and it's lost forever within the creation of that particular pup.

This is why dogs within the Kennel Club are (in my eyes) seriously screwed up. There is no new genetic material coming in, 50% is cast away each time a pup is created and then breeders exascerbate the problem by using popular stud dogs.

What's saving us is the outcrossing and our lack of standardising the breed what's saving pedigree whippets is the currently reasonably large genetic pool they have at the moment which is enabling some genetic diversity however, I strongly believe it's meerly a matter of time before they encounter their own genetic defects.

There's an individual I know within Pedigree whippets who had aspirations of using an american racing whippet within her breeding and was told outright this was a no go and that registration would be refused of that dog and any of it's offspring. This is deplorable and contributes to the detriment of the breed. The American Kennel Club have at least recognised their problems and made vested efforts to rectify situations (for example breeders went to Congo to get new blood in the Basenji and rectify their problems)

As far as I can see if the Kennel Club don't start opening up their closed stud dog books this country, probably over all others is going to have the worst quality of pedigree dogs over all others.

And when the damage is done and nothing can be recovered, whose door do you think they will come knocking upon? :- "

If we don't make the effort to maintain diversity now, while we're free from genetic disorders and diseases, then we will pay the price later.

 

[tanglewood]

I have read this and previous posts about abnormalities and genetic problems with dogs in previous threads and must say I agree in part with Vicki and what she says about bitches who have not quite made the grade not being used any longer as people want to buy only pups who have came from proved ability (ie champions) I only keep bitches and I would have loved to have bred Soprano (Alabama X Spellbound) but knew I would have had diffuculty selling these pups as she was only an open winner although I KNOW she could have been champ material if she had not had a tibia injury as a pup.

On the other hand it makes me scared that we are now thinking along the lines of breeding out all genetic or inherited disabilities ie the bully gene yes it is true these dogs may never race but for anyone who has owned one they are a loving loyal true pet.

I wou;d like to think that by trying to do what is right for our racing we are not saying that we should breed only something that WE class as PERFECT. This in my opinion would lead to problems in itself.

Genetic and inherited problems affect the best in every breed be it animal or man and to try and FIX or breed out these problems goes way beyond what we whippet racers are capable of.

 

[LVernon]

Think it does encourage us to think about using different dogs, maybe this might dilute some of the genetic difficulties, like the myostatin 'bully' gene.?chris

The test is available to detect whether the dog carries the myostatin mutation. If you never breed carrier to carrier, you should never get a bully. No throwing the baby out with the bathwater and no bullies.

Louanne

 

[Tony Taylor]

Think it does encourage us to think about using different dogs, maybe this might dilute some of the genetic difficulties, like the myostatin 'bully' gene.?chris

The test is available to detect whether the dog carries the myostatin mutation. If you never breed carrier to carrier, you should never get a bully. No throwing the baby out with the bathwater and no bullies.

Louanne

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It's still throwing the baby out ut with the bath water though as that's too simplistic an approach since you ignore all the other positive attributes the parents may have and the "bully" type doesn't seem to follow simple Mendelsonian genetics in practice.

 

[Fleesh]

Bloody genetics go hand in hand with whippet racing, all the hard work and choices you make - and it still boils down to chance

P.S Go to bed Tony what on earth are you doing up at 2:45 in the morning

 

[LVernon]

It's still throwing the baby out ut with the bath water though as that's too simplistic an approach since you ignore all the other positive attributes the parents may have and the "bully"  type doesn't seem to follow simple Mendelsonian genetics in practice.

My understanding is it really is a pretty simple solution. Test and then breed carriers to non-carriers. There's generally non-carriers available out of litters with carriers, so I'm not sure how it would affect the depth of the gene pool.

My experience is with North American race breds though, which may be where we're talking at cross purposes.

Louanne

 

[wild whippies]

Carriers of the single mutation lined to non-carriers can still produce offspring with the single mutation. In fact as it's linked to a faster dog, possession of the single mutation alone could be seen as desirable.

No-one (to my knowledge) would line a bully whippet because

1. Generally, the dogs increased muscle mass equates to a heavier weight and dogs end up 'out classed' in our weight racing handicaps.

2. In order for a bully whippet to come about, it has to possess the recessive genes on both sides, if this was lined to a non-ped (that had the single mutation) then offspring would have a high likelihood of being bully.

The difference within non-ped racing and pedigree whippet racing is we are not trying to conform to a standard, we have one agenda which is to breed robust, fast dogs with a sound character and good health. ( or at least that's what we should be doing by breeding so diversly)

Bully whippets do not have any detrimental health issues apart from a pre-disposition to cramping which can occur to any muscular dog who is not conditioned well by it's owners.

As most of the samples obtained for the myostatin study were submitted by UK KC registered pedigree whippets and american pedigree whippets, we do not know how many non-ped whippets carry the single recessive gene. As the gene itself is recessive, it may well be very high in it's prevelance.

I believe the Portugese Water Dog was a breed that tried to erradicate a defective gene causing Gangliosidosis, it succesfully phased out the defective gene and in it's process of doing so gained a new one that occured at a much higher frequency (late onset prcd-PRA)

A common statement in non-ped racing is ''if it isn't broke, don't fix it'' I think this is one of the rare times where I agree with such a comment.

 

[Paws123]

 

 

No-one (to my knowledge) would line a bully whippet because

1. Generally, the dogs increased muscle mass equates to a heavier weight and dogs end up 'out classed' in our weight racing handicaps.

2. In order for a bully whippet to come about, it has to possess the recessive genes on both sides, if this was lined to a non-ped (that had the single mutation) then offspring would have a high likelihood of being bully.

I know a none ped bully that was breed a few years go Marjo ( Another so x mad return) x Scruffy (ice princess x Maddison) litter produced no bully's

List of Saplings

ROLO

ROSEANNA .

Think the rest went to pet homes...

As for abnormalities and genetic problems in breeding of any kind of breed i am sure the percentage of problems are more in one breed from another ...so if we are introducing a high percentage of greyhound blood then surly our whippets would be inheriting the abnormalities and genetic problems that they may carry.

I know several if not more greyhound lines that are proving to carry increased chances of Heart Disease's also bone abnormality's.

 

[jade scott]

Spiders lady is 'Bully', when mated to 2 become one produced 5 pups non bully.

2 of Which are now Champs Vanilla Sky and Stella Lady

:thumbsup: