The Final Line Up

[Rachel]

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Hi all,

just perusing some show results and have a query... I always thought that the final line up could only consist of dogs with a 1st in their class, ie. unbeaten. If a dog who has come 2nd in their class is included in the line up is this because the judge has not been able to choose between them? and in theory they have both come 1st in their class? Puzzled!

Thanks in anticipation,

Rachel

 

[barb.jeff]

Hi all,
just perusing some show results and have a query... I always thought that the final line up could only consist of dogs with a 1st in their class, ie. unbeaten. If a dog who has come 2nd in their class is included in the line up is this because the judge has not been able to choose between them? and in theory they have both come 1st in their class? Puzzled!

Thanks in anticipation,

Rachel

When the CC has been awarded the judge can then if they choose bring in the dog who was second to the CC winner in for the challenge of RCC. This does happen quite a lot. Do I presume you are referring to the hound show?

 

[Rachel]

Hi, thank you for this info. - my experiences are mostly at Open Show level, and presumably this can't apply as no CCs on offer.

Given that you say it happens quite often, therefore at Champ level, do the 2nd placings usually hang about on the off chance they might be pulled out too?

BTW it was the Paignton Show I had looked at - which just goes to proves your point about it being quite common!

Thank you again,

Rachel

 

[T Hoare]

It can happen at open show level too. The same thing applies & yes any dog that has a second as long as it is not been beaten by anyother dog can be asked back into the ring by the judge to challenge the others for reserve of the award that has just been given.

Some exhibitors think this is an automatic procedure BUT it is not & is upto the judge ,to ask them to return back into the ring.

 

[barb.jeff]

Hi, thank you for this info. - my experiences are mostly at Open Show level, and presumably this can't apply as no CCs on offer.
Given that you say it happens quite often, therefore at Champ level, do the 2nd placings usually hang about on the off chance they might be pulled out too?

BTW it was the Paignton Show I had looked at - which just goes to proves your point about it being quite common!

Thank you again,

Rachel

Well it is funny you should ask that as this happened to us at the hound show on Saturday. We were 2nd in yearling dog and had not even imagined we could be called back in and were totally unprepared when the 1st in yearling won the ticket. We were chatting when we realised we had been called back in and the panick struck. We had started packing away so had to quickly fetch our boy. He then got the RCC so we learned a lesson too. It was a wonderful feeling though. Good luck with the showing

 

[Rachel]

Just checked out the Houndhsow results and - how wonderful Barb.Jeff on your win and hearty congratulations! What a great story to illustrate my query!

Despite being quite green re. showing I do know that to take a RCC (and a CC) from junior is very special. I'm enjoying watching (from my armchair) the rise of the Demerlays - York is my neck of the woods!

Congratulations also to the Ch Huntinghill Jazzalicious that I obliquely referred to in my original query, I have watched her consistently win from MPB to champion (from aforementioned armchair).

Thank you also, T.H, I think my confusion has come from my first showing of an old bitch (young then!) who I entered in four or five classes at the EAWC- she won all apart from one and could not go into the final line up. I entered her in several to give her the experience (and me) but am thankful she didn't get any further as mine and her nerves would not have endured!

It's good to be totally informed to prevent nerves - here's to my being in the enviable situation of the above dogs one day!

Rachel

 

[aslan]

Hi Rachel

Just to broaden your armchair experience and let you know what happens on the other side of the world ...

Only first placegetters are brought in for the initial CC line-up.

Beaten dogs may not contend in the initial line-up. This why Aussies rarely enter their dogs in more than one class, because if you win one and then get beaten in another you may not contest the CC.

It is a rule though, in Oz, that the second placegetter to the CC winner comes in after the CC is awarded to challenge for Res CC.

 

[Tiger Lily]

Yes this does also happen at Open Show level but not very often. Our Silver was awarded 2nd in Open class and was called back in after BOB was awarded, to challenge for RBOB, which she took. Not all open shows have a RBOB and very often the judge does not call in the 2nd place winner. This is the first time I have been called back in at an open show in 3 years! Just goes to show - Hang around long enough to see the BOB of your breed!

 

[T Hoare]

Yes this does also happen at Open Show level but not very often. Our Silver was awarded 2nd in Open class and was called back in after BOB was awarded, to challenge for RBOB, which she took. Not all open shows have a RBOB and very often the judge does not call in the 2nd place winner. This is the first time I have been called back in at an open show in 3 years! Just goes to show - Hang around long enough to see the BOB of your breed!

By open show level, I also mean breed open shows, which it can happen quite often :thumbsup:

 

[Rachel]

Hi Rachel
Just to broaden your armchair experience and let you know what happens on the other side of the world ...

Only first placegetters are brought in for the initial CC line-up.

Beaten dogs may not contend in the initial line-up. This why Aussies rarely enter their dogs in more than one class, because if you win one and then get beaten in another you may not contest the CC.

It is a rule though, in Oz, that the second placegetter to the CC winner comes in after the CC is awarded to challenge for Res CC.

Thanks for this Lana, it never occurred to me that other countries might do things differently! The things you learn from your armchair lol. Is this because your entries are larger?

I think I would favour this method if I was a judge, as I find the UK method where you mentally juggle the 'seen before' dogs in your head to judge against the unseen dogs confusing and it is also more time consuming, particularly when the judge chooses to move them all again!

I'd find honing my entry down to one class tricky though - how often have I entered a class which turns out to be the largest on the day, and not the one with only 3 or 4 dogs in it! lol

!

Just goes to show - Hang around long enough to see the BOB of your breed

The drawback to this Tiger Lily would be that my husband - he who drives car, would probably have exploded with boredom/whippetshow rage by this point! groan!

Rachel

 

[anniewhippet]

Sadly today many general Open Shows do not have RBOB's to award, or noted in the catalogue, with no rosettes available and again sadly they do not always offer BP rosettes which is a pity for the exhibitor and often the judge too as it feels very mean just to be able to present a BOB one.

That was a good lesson well learnt Barb, well done, and thanks for your lovely comments Rachel.

 

[JAX]

Hi Rachel
Just to broaden your armchair experience and let you know what happens on the other side of the world ...

Only first placegetters are brought in for the initial CC line-up.

Beaten dogs may not contend in the initial line-up. This why Aussies rarely enter their dogs in more than one class, because if you win one and then get beaten in another you may not contest the CC.

It is a rule though, in Oz, that the second placegetter to the CC winner comes in after the CC is awarded to challenge for Res CC.

Thanks for this Lana, it never occurred to me that other countries might do things differently! The things you learn from your armchair lol. Is this because your entries are larger?

I think I would favour this method if I was a judge, as I find the UK method where you mentally juggle the 'seen before' dogs in your head to judge against the unseen dogs confusing and it is also more time consuming, particularly when the judge chooses to move them all again!

I'd find honing my entry down to one class tricky though - how often have I entered a class which turns out to be the largest on the day, and not the one with only 3 or 4 dogs in it! lol

!

Just goes to show - Hang around long enough to see the BOB of your breed

The drawback to this Tiger Lily would be that my husband - he who drives car, would probably have exploded with boredom/whippetshow rage by this point! groan!

Rachel

Do what I do , and leave him at home , :thumbsup: then you can watch all the judging and learn loads about whippets , handling and showing :lol:

 

[nicky12]

thanks for putting this post up rachel .myself new to all this showing and the last show i went to an iggy got called back into the line up and i wasnt shure what was going on, its all very clear now ,it was a very interesting read thanks to all that have contributed :thumbsup:

 

[aslan]

Hi Rachel
Just to broaden your armchair experience and let you know what happens on the other side of the world ...

Only first placegetters are brought in for the initial CC line-up.

Beaten dogs may not contend in the initial line-up. This why Aussies rarely enter their dogs in more than one class, because if you win one and then get beaten in another you may not contest the CC.

It is a rule though, in Oz, that the second placegetter to the CC winner comes in after the CC is awarded to challenge for Res CC.

Thanks for this Lana, it never occurred to me that other countries might do things differently! The things you learn from your armchair lol. Is this because your entries are larger?

Rachel

No our breed entries are smaller than what you get over there - esp. at all breed champ shows. We can pull a couple of hundred whippets for a National Specialty but that's only every now and again.

But here I would say it's all about the CC and the points that come with it for your Championship title - and if you entered two classes and win one and don't win the other then you don't get to go in for the CC, so people generally don't risk it. You sometimes see newbies enter their dogs in more than one class - but this is often just for the practice - and when they missed out on a challenge line up a couple of times they soon start entering in one class only.

Also we don't have that many classes that a dog can easily move between - the usual classes are:

Baby 3-6 months (and not eligible for CC's)

Minor 6-9 months

Puppy 6 - 12 months

Junior 9 - 18 months

Intermediate 18 - 36 months

State Bred (not offered at all shows) - 6 months and over Bred in the State in which it's being exhibited

Australian Bred - 6 months and over bred in Aust

Open - 6 months and over bred anywhere.

So if you've got a minor it could, legally, go in Minor, Puppy, State, Aust and/or Open. But the latter three classes are usually where the older dogs go and you wouldn't normally put your young'un up against the older dogs for a class. You're better off competing against other pups its own age.

There are also three other classes available but I've rarely seen clubs anywhere use them:

Novice - 6 months and over that have not won a first place at any Champ or Open show

Graduate - 6 months and over that have not won a CC

Limit - 12 months and over that are not Champions.

 

[Rachel]

Thank you for the further info Lana!

Heck! a baby class! I wonder how popular these are? I can't see any merit to having these other than as practice for the pups as they change so dramatically between these ages. Are they more of a novelty class? It must be a very long day for a little one!

If I'm understanding this correctly does this mean that the final line-up in an average champ show has only four dogs x four opposite sex dogs? (excluding the pups)

In that your classes are consolidated into four, that must mean that the classes are larger than the UK, even given your smaller entries and therefore, if brain serves me well! it must be more difficult to win a CC in Aus than it is here ( not so many opps to get into final line up)?

Phew! all this armchair theorising is very tiring for ageing brain! must make reviving cup of tea!

Rachel

 

[aslan]

Nope! I think you're a little confused - perhaps I did not explain clearly enough.

Popular opinion is that it is much harder to win a CC in the UK than it is in Australia.

You get a couple of hundred whippets at your specialties (breed shows) yeah?

And usually at least one hundred or more whippets at your all breeds champs?

We had 262 for the 1st Aust National + World Congress in 2004 - I think that would have been our biggest entry ever.

Mike Howgate had 114 at the New South Wales Whippet Club held in Sydney earlier this year.

We only have four Whippet Specialty Clubs that are able to hold Breed Specialty Championship Shows. These are held once a year in the Capital city of the state. The Whippet Club of NSW (Sydney), The Whippet Association of Victoria (Melbourne), The Greyhound and Whippet Club of South Australia (Adelaide) and the Whippet Club of Queensland (Brisbane). Australia is a huge country and the spaces between these capital cities are vast so not everyone can get to all of them every year.

Most of us do most of our competing at All Breeds Champ Shows.

Size of entries at All Breed Champ Shows depends where you are in Australia. I'm guessing they would average about 30-40 at metropolitan shows in Sydney and Melbourne - someone will correct me if I'm wrong - and I know for sure they've had around 70-80 at some of the big shows in those cities. I live in regional Central Queensland and we average around 10-15 at our all breeds shows. On the odd occasion we can have up to 20 and once (when we had some Brisbane visitors with a few dogs in tow) I remember we had 33. So, generally speaking our classes are smaller than what you would usually face at a champ show in the UK, because the whole breed numbers are smaller.

Baby puppy is not what I'd call a "novelty" class, but we are not too hard on making the babies perfect show dogs at this stage. It's a learning phase but they are competing against other babies in their breed and at group and show level. Baby in Show is a highly coveted prize. And it's all about the whole "show experience" for babies as well. Whilst they cannot compete for challenge it's a great training ground for when they hit minor puppy and are eligible. They are more likely to know what it's all about by then and, whilst still not seasoned professionals, they do a better job of being a "show dog" in the CC line up.

You have to remember too - that not many of our shows are held in halls like yours are. More often than not we are outdoors and we can camp at the shows, and have large open spaces to take the dogs for walks. We can also have puppy play pens etc out in the open for the littlies, away from the ring at our campsites and they have quite a comfortable time of it all.

All first place winners in each of the classes: Minor, Puppy, Junior, Intermediate, State Bred, Aust Bred, & Open are eligible to compete for the CC. So, you would have, at the most, 7 dogs or 7 bitches in the CC line-up (6 if you're at a show where the State Bred Class is not offered.)

Our CC's earn points. A dog must get 100 points to qualify for the Aust Champion title. You cannot win more than 25 points at any one show - regardless of how many dogs are entered.

 

[JAX]

Also , Lana , correct me if I m wrong :wacko: but ALL your show wins etc go towards the title of Champion . whereas in the UK only Championship show wins count . Wins at open shows( even Best in Show wins ) count for nothing towards the title of Champion .

The UK champion title is thought to be the hardest title to attain the world over .

On the Continent .again if my memory serves me right , you can get a title just from winning best of sex at one show !

 

[aslan]

Sorry Jax but you are wrong

CC's here (and therefore points) can only be won at Champ Shows.

Open Shows are training grounds for trainee judges and points are not awarded. Same here as in the UK - Even BIS at an OS does not count towards the Championship Title.

Open shows are still judged in the same manner with the same classes and 1st placegetters going through etc but there is no CC hence the line-up/award is called the "Best Dog/Bitch" line-up not the Challenge.

 

[JAX]

Thanks Lana, I was under the impression you didnt have Open shows , but then of course judges have to learn somewhere, silly me :wacko:

 

[aslan]

That's ok. I'm still having trouble remembering how the CAC / CACIB works. I've been told before but it still hasn't stuck in my head.