To Crate Or Not To Crate?

[columbusrat]

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I'm getting the distinct impression that Jasper (son of Clint and Willow) doesn't want to be a crate dog, he wants to be a sofa dog. I'm considering moving a sofa into 'his' room which means that I'd be able to spend more time with him in his room rather than him be in the non-dog-proof front room with me, and that he could sleep on the sofa at night if he wanted (I'd place cushions or something on the floor as I know he shouldn't be jumping off furnuture yet). Housetraining seems to be going well so I don't fel I need to confine him to his crate for toileting.

Some people have been saying to me that I need to be firm with him about where he sleeps, and put him back in his crate 20 times if necessary, or shut him in and ignore the cries. But apart from the fact I'm concerned this will make him dislike it more, if there aren't any real benefits to us of having him accustomed to a crate this seems a battle not worth fighting. I'd rather insist that he sleeps in his room, but that will be a lot easier if I can make that room as attractive to him as possible. There's quite enough things to be firm about ithout adding unnecessary ones!

However, abandoning the crate at this stage is a big decision as it would be very difficult to reintroduce it later so I want to make sure this is the right thing to try.

As a first-time dog owner since my childhood I'm amazed at what seems like a universal agreement that crate training is the most important aspect of training a dog. It makes me wonder how we used to manage to read well behaved dogs! So I'd be really interested to know if the vast majority of people here crate train their dogs or if there are plenty take their own path and work out what seems best for them and their individual dogs.

 

[patde]

[q


uote name='columbusrat' date='Feb 2 2010, 12:36 PM' post='1009933]I'm getting the distinct impression that Jasper (son of Clint and Willow) doesn't want to be a crate dog, he wants to be a sofa dog. I'm considering moving a sofa into 'his' room which means that I'd be able to spend more time with him in his room rather than him be in the non-dog-proof front room with me, and that he could sleep on the sofa at night if he wanted (I'd place cushions or something on the floor as I know he shouldn't be jumping off furnuture yet). Housetraining seems to be going well so I don't fel I need to confine him to his crate for toileting.

Some people have been saying to me that I need to be firm with him about where he sleeps, and put him back in his crate 20 times if necessary, or shut him in and ignore the cries. But apart from the fact I'm concerned this will make him dislike it more, if there aren't any real benefits to us of having him accustomed to a crate this seems a battle not worth fighting. I'd rather insist that he sleeps in his room, but that will be a lot easier if I can make that room as attractive to him as possible. There's quite enough things to be firm about ithout adding unnecessary ones!

However, abandoning the crate at this stage is a big decision as it would be very difficult to reintroduce it later so I want to make sure this is the right thing to try.

As a first-time dog owner since my childhood I'm amazed at what seems like a universal agreement that crate training is the most important aspect of training a dog. It makes me wonder how we used to manage to read well behaved dogs! So I'd be really interested to know if the vast majority of people here crate train their dogs or if there are plenty take their own path and work out what seems best for them and their individual dogs.

 

[cyfrin]

Hi - first of all your lad Jasper is a stunner!

I have had many breeds over the years, including my first lurcher 13 yrs ago! Until Pica we had never used a crate although a very close friend of mine did.

Now, a crate has proved invaluable. It is his sanctuary and very handy when we need to pop out (less than 1 hr) as he can be a right little teaser with our border collie X LOL Also, when we go out in the car we know he is safe in the crate rather than loose. He has never been allowed on the furniture and understands that (unless having a mad 5 minutes!) But to give him a sofa in another room, whilst not allowing him on a sofa in 'your' room is surely giving him mixed signals. Along with the crate we have a large dog duvet for communal use during the day, plus they curl up in front of the fire in the evening. If he gets restless and won't 'stay' or tries to get up on the sofa then he is sent to his 'box' (the crate) where he curls up & sleeps! It's almost as if he wants the peace LOL

Whatever decisions you make you have to reinforce them so that he gets used to the routine, but now is the best time to start as everything is new for you & him Plus he will be missing the company of his litter mates & mum so is looking to you for comfort & direction.

The one thing that scared me witless was when he began chewing the wires in the crate and would occasionally get his teeth/jaw stuck - I have never heard a pup scream like he did. The vet said it happens & to discourage it - it only happened twice but that was once too often!

Hope this helps a little

 

[bonio]

We have had many dogs over the last 30 odd years and all the ones in the house are trained to a crate in fact even our older dogs who no longer need to go in it love it and go in and out of their own free will. None of them liked a crate to start with but now it's no problem. We have a 14weeks old pup at the moment who hated it at first but now it's no problem to him and he's quite happy with it.

I appreciate what your saying about all the hassle but it's early days yet so I would definitely persevere as he will accept it within a short space of time and it will become his own space. Aside from the toilet training issue there is also the chewing while he is teething. This may not be an issue now but could become one as he gets older, my next youngest dog is 17 months and she was a terror for chewing but for the last 4-5 months has been out of the cage at night and when we are out with no problems ( famous last words!).If you give in on this issue then he will learn that to get his own way all he needs to do is cry, and at the end of the day you need to let him know who is the master from the start. Ours are only in at bedtime and when we're out, the way I do it is to put him in and leave him for 10 mins or so then come back and let him out, I don't let him out when hes screaming but when he's quiet so he learns that temper tantrums achieve nothing. Hope this is some help to you.

Good luck

Sonia

 

[Goran]

We have had many dogs over the last 30 odd years and all the ones in the house are trained to a crate in fact even our older dogs who no longer need to go in it love it and go in and out of their own free will. None of them liked a crate to start with but now it's no problem. We have a 14weeks old pup at the moment who hated it at first but now it's no problem to him and he's quite happy with it.I appreciate what your saying about all the hassle but it's early days yet so I would definitely persevere as he will accept it within a short space of time and it will become his own space. Aside from the toilet training issue there is also the chewing while he is teething. This may not be an issue now but could become one as he gets older, my next youngest dog is 17 months and she was a terror for chewing but for the last 4-5 months has been out of the cage at night and when we are out with no problems ( famous last words!).If you give in on this issue then he will learn that to get his own way all he needs to do is cry, and at the end of the day you need to let him know who is the master from the start. Ours are only in at bedtime and when we're out, the way I do it is to put him in and leave him for 10 mins or so then come back and let him out, I don't let him out when hes screaming but when he's quiet so he learns that temper tantrums achieve nothing. Hope this is some help to you.

Good luck

Sonia

Hi , First off I totally agree with Sonia & Cyfrin. We have always crated our pups, but after 9-12mths old & hopefully having no bad habits they are allowed to 'Free Roam' The easiest way I find to get them use to a crate from Day1 is to have a set routine. Toilets-Play-Feed-Toilets & Sleep,as soon as they fall asleep (should do with exercise & a full tummy!) put them gently in the crate. If he does wake up & scream at you, ignore & try get on with something you want to do!! With Rebus he would let out a huge sigh out & give in...and then after a long sleep, as soon as he woke up I would put him out toilets. and start again. A puppy's life is very simple at this age. Sleep,food, play & fair discipline. None of my dogs have ever chewed or messed in their crates & the longest I would leave them in a crate during the day would be 2-3hrs. Nightime they would normally go from 11pm to 6 or 7am. My Mum use to put a sheet over the crate at night, which may or may not work for Jaspar. depends if you have a 'busy' household if you know what I mean. It is hard work to start with but will pay off, I can assure you. It gives the pup security & you peace of mind. Just bear in mind though the bigger Jaspar gets the more space he is going to need, so I would expect to have to buy 2 crates whilst he is growing up. If you go on Ebay, there is a shop called PET EUROPE, who are BRILLIANT for inexpensive crates (&they provide a great service). Both Goran & Rebus who are 28 & 26" respectively had 2 crates, do hope this helps.

He a beautiful pup & just my type & I wish you luck with him........crackin pic by the way !! :thumbsup:

 

[jinnyfizz]

I can see the benefit of having a suitably sized crate for travelling and housing at events/shows etc, but I have never shut any of mine in a crate at any other time, although the lurcher pups have a large crate in their stable, with the door permanently open, which they sleep in (a heat lamp is installed so it's like their own centrally heated bedroom )

I have 6 whippets and 1 small lurcher living in the house and they have the run of the whole house, day and night. They have never damaged anything other than their own toys :wacko: and I have left them for up to 5 hours at a time on occasions. They do have hide chews to amuse themselves with and my neighbour will call round to let them out in the garden for a while if necessary.

I suppose the reason it works for me is that I don't mind them sleeping upstairs with me. If I wanted to maintain parts of the house for human occupation only I expect I would have had to find some way of confining them as, no doubt, they would have objected to being shut away. However, I'm thinking back to the 70s when I had my first dog and crates weren't the "norm" ........ I don't recall having any trouble training her to stay quietly whilst I was out or upstairs, I just gave her a chew and said "be good, won't be long" and walked out of the door! (she was a GSD tho', not a whippet )

I'll probably get shot down for this, but crates seem to be the answer for those who can't allow their lives to revolve around their dogs as I do (not their fault, we live in a society where we have to work long hours etc) so they need to provide an almost fail-safe way of keeping the dog out of potential trouble :blink:

At the end of the day, it's everyone to their own and, for my part, I dislike crating. OK if the door is open and the dog can choose to be in the crate or not, but to shut them in overnight or for more than an hour or two goes against the grain with me :thumbsup:

 

[TTT]

I find the crates invaluable in the following situations:

Safely travelling in the car.

Putting the dogs somewhere out of harms way when doing household chores/DIY.

Toilet training.

When visitors (especially with children) arrive - not everyone is comfortable with dogs sharing the sofa.

Somewhere safe to keep the dogs while at competitions.

When minding someone elses dog in my home.

When workmen are at the house - they may leave dors open and dogs could escape.

Yes - I am a self confessed cage addict - I own four cages and two dogs! (w00t)

 

[columbusrat]

Blimey this puppy-raising is complicated, isn't it? :blink: Different things work for different people and dogs, but you don't know if it worked until you have a full-grown bad mannered furniture eating furniture hogger :unsure:

One thing I've realised is it's far too early to commit to radical changes - he's even surprised me a couple of times since writing the OP. He was sleeping on the floor at my feet just now, woke up, and instead of pestering to come on my lap just moved over to his 'blankie' and settld himself down again there. I suppose it makes sense that having been taken away from his mum and littermates he's bound to be initially more clingy to his new 'mum' and then gain in confidence. So although we may decide at some stage that we don't need the crate and never really did, it will stay for now.

I still like the idea of a sofa in his room - my instinct tells me that he will accept the difference between 'his' sofa and other sofas, as he hopefully will one day between his toys and my shoes (maybe.....) - but as hubby has pointed out, it's not a good idea to leave him unattended with a climbing frame that he can jump off with young legs like his. so my bum will have to put up with the floor for a bit longer.

Thanks for the compliments - I've passed them all on to Jasper but he already knows he's gorgeous 'cos I keep telling him!

 

[foggy]

I totally agree with all the comments so far.Neither my OH or I had ever used a crate before we had Elsie, but it is definitely a bonus. As long as it's never used as a punishment. I think the dog soon regards it as their own little haven. We gave Deb a blanket and a toy, to collect smells on, before we collected Elsie and she still sleeps with them. She still has the occasional night-time sleep problems but I think we would have heard her soulful tunes with or without her crate.

Good Luck

Diane

 

[cyfrin]

jinnyfizz said ~ "I'll probably get shot down for this, but crates seem to be the answer for those who can't allow their lives to revolve around their dogs as I do (not their fault, we live in a society where we have to work long hours etc) so they need to provide an almost fail-safe way of keeping the dog out of potential trouble"

Hi - I am sure a few owners use crates as a convenience but we do not work, are home 24/7 and would never use a crate as a 'fail-safe...' As for caring for dogs, then a responsible loving caring owner will have the dogs best interests at heart, whether their lives revolve around the dog or the other way round!!

I am not 'shooting you down' jinnyfizz just pointing out that not all of us use a crate for the wrong reasons! But then. without differing opinions it would be a mundane world!

 

[~Annie~]

My two pennorth, for what it's worth.

Our whippets live in the house with us and sleep in our room at night ... in their crates (luckily it's a big room!). I don't mind dogs on the sofa but I do object to dogs on beds. As pups they have protested at first but the company of a large teddy and a heat pad seems to have done the trick after the first few nights. Now at bedtime they queue up for their crate doors to be opened and settle without a murmur. What I don't like to do though is leave them crated when I am not close by ... having met a dog that dislocated it's jaw as a pup after getting it's teeth caught in the bars. When they are left alone (which is not often - I work from home and it's the kind of household where someone's usually here) they are confined in a dog proof room (as far as that is possible) ... left alone in the living room they have been caught playing tug of war with the sofa cushions !!

I'd say it's definitely worth persevering with crate training but that it's important to also train for when you don't want to use a crate, e.g. to get your pup used to being left alone with something to occupy him (stuffed kongs are good) so that he learns to wait patiently for you without chewing the furniture!

 

[bonio]

jinnyfizz said ~ "I'll probably get shot down for this, but crates seem to be the answer for those who can't allow their lives to revolve around their dogs as I do (not their fault, we live in a society where we have to work long hours etc) so they need to provide an almost fail-safe way of keeping the dog out of potential trouble"
Hi - I am sure a few owners use crates as a convenience but we do not work, are home 24/7 and would never use a crate as a 'fail-safe...' As for caring for dogs, then a responsible loving caring owner will have the dogs best interests at heart, whether their lives revolve around the dog or the other way round!!

I am not 'shooting you down' jinnyfizz just pointing out that not all of us use a crate for the wrong reasons! But then. without differing opinions it would be a mundane world!

Totally agree with this reply, I considered it very judgmental of jinnyfizz to assume that not letting your dogs have the complete run of the house means you think any less of them. It was also interesting to note that although her dogs are her life and she doesn't use crates the 2 lurcher pups were in the stable with a crate for a bed. Surely this would not have been necessary as a stable would have stalls they could be in.

Sonia

 

[columbusrat]

Hmmmm, after a bad night I think I'm going to backtrack a bit... It's a bit much to expect him to stay happily in his crate when he won't stay happily in the whole room, and a bit much to expect him to spend all night alone in his room if he can't manage a few minutes.

So tonight I'm going to sleep in his room with him, hopefully persuading him to sleep next to the mattress on a quilt or something rather than on it with me, because he's amazing at nicking more than his fair share! Then will gradually try moving me away from him, or him away from me, and working on the separation aspect during the day. I think it'll be easier for me to move away from his room than him start in our bedroom & move away from there. Mind you, I don't really mind where he sleeps (or where I sleep!) in the long run as long as I actually get some sleep! If I manage to persuade him his crate is a nice place to sleep all well and good but I don't feel that for us the long-term advantages of having a crate are worth a whole lot of stress now, while I'm also dealing with housetraining, bite inhibition, socialisation... oh, and trying to keep up with the normal household stuff! :ermm:

 

[FeeFee]

I'd say it's definitely worth persevering with crate training but that it's important to also train for when you don't want to use a crate, e.g. to get your pup used to being left alone with something to occupy him (stuffed kongs are good) so that he learns to wait patiently for you without chewing the furniture!

I think this is so important, I've known people rely on crates to the point where they daren't leave their dogs unsupervised and uncrated at all. Puppies need to learn how to behave alone for short times without being crated - which might mean the odd puddle or the odd thing getting chewed, but that's all part and parcel of having a puppy!

 

[TTT]

Try always to feed your pup and give him treats and toys in the cage. He will then associate it with nice things. Get him to spend a few minutres at a time in the cage, like when you are doing chores and he can still see you. Cover the cage with a blanket on three sides to make it a cosy den.

 

[~Annie~]

Hmmmm, after a bad night I think I'm going to backtrack a bit... It's a bit much to expect him to stay happily in his crate when he won't stay happily in the whole room, and a bit much to expect him to spend all night alone in his room if he can't manage a few minutes.
So tonight I'm going to sleep in his room with him, hopefully persuading him to sleep next to the mattress on a quilt or something rather than on it with me, because he's amazing at nicking more than his fair share! Then will gradually try moving me away from him, or him away from me, and working on the separation aspect during the day. I think it'll be easier for me to move away from his room than him start in our bedroom & move away from there. Mind you, I don't really mind where he sleeps (or where I sleep!) in the long run as long as I actually get some sleep! If I manage to persuade him his crate is a nice place to sleep all well and good but I don't feel that for us the long-term advantages of having a crate are worth a whole lot of stress now, while I'm also dealing with housetraining, bite inhibition, socialisation... oh, and trying to keep up with the normal household stuff! :ermm:

A thought for you ... the good thing about crates is that they are a portable personal space ... once happy in their crates most dogs will be happy in them anywhere e.g. due to a visiting dog needing to be kept apart from the whippets my crate trained dachsie spent last night in his crate in my sons bedroom, along with his whippet eating dachsie chum, also crate trained ... it's the crates and the beds and toys they contain that become safe and familiar, the room they are in becomes irrelevant. Might be worth having a look at your pups crate in terms of can I make it more inviting. Also does it need a cover to protect him from drafts and add to his feelings of security ... all our dogs have a blanket covering top, back and sides of their crates, with the front uncovered so they can see what is going on.

Please remember that your pup is a pup ... sure he needs reassurance if upset (I'm not of the leave them to scream school) but it sounds to me as if at the moment he is the one calling the shots in your relationship.

Good luck, and happy puppy raising ... it really is worth it!

 

[columbusrat]

Please remember that your pup is a pup ... sure he needs reassurance if upset (I'm not of the leave them to scream school) but it sounds to me as if at the moment he is the one calling the shots in your relationship.

At the moment, maybe, because I'm so dog-tired! But if I can find a way of me and him getting a decent night's sleep then I'll be much better able to deal with some proper crate/separation training in the day.

He just discovered his legs in the garden and did his best to sprint the length of the garden. Not too successful as he was on the lead but boy, did he go! It was almost an 'I've just discovered what I was born for' moment :thumbsup: Maybe I should forget about 'sit' and start on recall right now.....

 

[Hula]

I have an 11week old whippet pup who I have had since she was 8 weeks . Due to it being so cold here in Edinburgh at the moment I opted to sleep in a spare bedroom with her for the first two weeks ( she was in the bed beside me ) This kept her warm and had the added advantage that I knew if she needed out . After two weeks of this I decided to try her in a crate beside my bed . I didn't expect too much but I was pleasantly surprised that she whined for a couple of minutes and then slept through the night . If she seems a little unsettled now I just say shhhh and she soon settles again . We have been doing this for a week now with great success .

If I want to move her out of my bedroom eventually I will but to be honest I like having them near me in the night .

I hope you get something sorted out soon for your pup and you all get a good nights sleep :luck:

 

[pat cope]

I find the crates invaluable in the following situations:
Safely travelling in the car.

Putting the dogs somewhere out of harms way when doing household chores/DIY.

Toilet training.

When visitors (especially with children) arrive - not everyone is comfortable with dogs sharing the sofa.

Somewhere safe to keep the dogs while at competitions.

When minding someone elses dog in my home.

When workmen are at the house - they may leave dors open and dogs could escape.

Yes - I am a self confessed cage addict - I own four cages and two dogs! (w00t)

I share your views. Mine are all in the house, but there are times as above when they need to be caged.

Mine have their own bedroom with cages all along on wall. They go out last thing at night. 11.0 clock

for last wee, then upstairs to bed. Being caged stops arguments in the night if one gets trod on, or one pinches

all the duvet. (Might get large one for husband) We get up at 6.0 and they are all out again.

Couldnt manage without them.

 

[TTT]

I find the crates invaluable in the following situations:
Safely travelling in the car.

Putting the dogs somewhere out of harms way when doing household chores/DIY.

Toilet training.

When visitors (especially with children) arrive - not everyone is comfortable with dogs sharing the sofa.

Somewhere safe to keep the dogs while at competitions.

When minding someone elses dog in my home.

When workmen are at the house - they may leave dors open and dogs could escape.

Yes - I am a self confessed cage addict - I own four cages and two dogs! (w00t)

I share your views. Mine are all in the house, but there are times as above when they need to be caged.

Mine have their own bedroom with cages all along on wall. They go out last thing at night. 11.0 clock

for last wee, then upstairs to bed. Being caged stops arguments in the night if one gets trod on, or one pinches

all the duvet. (Might get large one for husband) We get up at 6.0 and they are all out again.

Couldnt manage without them.

Cages work in all these situations - as I said above, I have four of various sizes, one in the car and three in the house but often one of my house cages is out on loan to various people who complain that their dogs are causing havoc and they are having problems coping. At the click of my fingers, a cage can willingly be folded and lent out to see how it can help. The cage is usually shortly returned with thanks once borrowers have seen the advantages and purchased their own "indoor kennel" :thumbsup:

I'm a real campaigner for the use of cages...........it's like rent-a-cage at mine!