Tri Colour Whippets

[maggie217]

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Will this colouring be a veryrecessive genetically? I read not long ago about black and tans turning up in a labrador litter recently. They have been accepted by the KC so it seems that must be a genetically recessive colour which has been hidden for generations.

Pauline

 

[Natalia]

Pilot Officer of Pardee was a blue, fawn and white tri. I have seen him loads of times and he was a tri. He was owned by Dolly Bradshaw, if you go on the whippet archives and put her name in, all her dogs come up, so you can trace his pedigree!
There is a photo, but being black and white it doesn't really show mean a lot.

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Oh, thank you so much! I have started to collect information about them and I analyze the pedigrees to find the carriers of this gene in the past. This dog is a wonderful example, as his pedigree is a little bit different to waht I have found so far.

 

[Scudder]

Here is 2 bitches we owned that wouldn't be 'true' tri colours

In the USA they would be officially registered as fawn and white, watermarked.

I have a bitch that is red and white with the sabled edges around the colour blocks (watermarking). Her son is the one I posted about somewhere ^ up ^ there that is white but has some fawn spots and some spots that are completely black because they are so sabled you can't see the base color.

I've had a few people look at him and they think he's sabled AND watermarked. To me, he's just Bernie. :wub:

Kristen

 

[Natalia]

Will this colouring be a veryrecessive genetically?  I read not long ago about black and tans turning up in a labrador litter recently. They have been accepted by the KC so it seems that must be a genetically recessive colour which has been hidden for generations.
Pauline

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Yes, this is a recessive form of the gene in locus A, so it is very rare to be able to see its presence. It requires that the dog does not have the gene for solid black/blue, does not have the gene for brindle, and does not have the gene for solid fawn (+does not have two genes for cream) to be able to see saddle markings or tricolour patern. It is a very rare combination.

 

[Natalia]

Here is 2 bitches we owned that wouldn't be 'true' tri colours

In the USA they would be officially registered as fawn and white, watermarked.

I have a bitch that is red and white with the sabled edges around the colour blocks (watermarking). Her son is the one I posted about somewhere ^ up ^ there that is white but has some fawn spots and some spots that are completely black because they are so sabled you can't see the base color.

I've had a few people look at him and they think he's sabled AND watermarked. To me, he's just Bernie. :wub:

Kristen

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Would it be possible to see any picture of her off side? She has so much white that it is almost impossible to be sure about her real colour. For me what I see on the picture you posted is rather very heavy black mask + watermarking, not saddling, as the colour becomes lighter around the ears, not darker.

Watermarking is something different, the mode of inheritance is unknown yet, I think nobody cared to do it...

 

[maggie217]

Will this colouring be a veryrecessive genetically?  I read not long ago about black and tans turning up in a labrador litter recently. They have been accepted by the KC so it seems that must be a genetically recessive colour which has been hidden for generations.
Pauline

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Yes, this is a recessive form of the gene in locus A, so it is very rare to be able to see its presence. It requires that the dog does not have the gene for solid black/blue, does not have the gene for brindle, and does not have the gene for solid fawn (+does not have two genes for cream) to be able to see saddle markings or tricolour patern. It is a very rare combination.

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Ah yes, no wonder it shows up very rarely with those requirements. Genetics gets beyond me when Locus etc. gets mentioned. I only understand the most basic mendelian rules. Natalia, could you recommend a useful book or website please? I do have the link to the excellent website mentioned above but need to understand a bit more of the basic genetic theory.

Very interesting topic.

Pauline

 

[Natalia]

Ah yes, no wonder it shows up very rarely with those requirements.  Genetics gets beyond me when Locus etc. gets mentioned. I only understand the most basic mendelian rules.  Natalia, could you recommend a useful book or website please?  I do have the link to the excellent website mentioned above but need to understand a bit more of the basic genetic theory.
Very interesting topic.

Pauline

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It is medelian really, but involves many genes, so becomes a little bit more complicated, as you have to know not only which genes are recessive/dominant, but also which "come first" in the order (it is called "epistasis"), so are wisible regardless of other genes, and which are visible only when other genes are not present.You may start here, in fact it is not the best site I know, but I cannot find the site I prefer at the moment, it is either closed or moved somewhere. I will search for it later.

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Genetics.html

 

[T Hoare]

Here is 2 bitches we owned that wouldn't be 'true' tri colours

In the USA they would be officially registered as fawn and white, watermarked.

I have a bitch that is red and white with the sabled edges around the colour blocks (watermarking). Her son is the one I posted about somewhere ^ up ^ there that is white but has some fawn spots and some spots that are completely black because they are so sabled you can't see the base color.

I've had a few people look at him and they think he's sabled AND watermarked. To me, he's just Bernie. :wub:

Kristen

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Would it be possible to see any picture of her off side? She has so much white that it is almost impossible to be sure about her real colour. For me what I see on the picture you posted is rather very heavy black mask + watermarking, not saddling, as the colour becomes lighter around the ears, not darker.

Watermarking is something different, the mode of inheritance is unknown yet, I think nobody cared to do it...

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This is 2 different bitches, I did say they are not true Tri's but they are 3 different colours all the same. I think they were both registered Fawn parti's(it was over 17 years ago)

 

[Natalia]

This is 2 different bitches, I did say they are not true Tri's but they are 3 different colours all the same. I think they were both registered Fawn parti's(it was over 17 years ago)

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What a pity, I need more TRIs

 

[Natalia]

And another photo of Grillemont Aloutte

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One of my pups has this coloring. His sabling is still fading on his head, but by the time he is 2, he'll have a fawn head with sabled body patches and a fawn butt spot. When he was born he looked like he was black and white. The fawn didn't show up for months.

His mother was mostly white with watermarked deep, deep red patches and his father was a very clear red and white.

You can clearly see the fade in this picture. His head is turning all fawn very quickly. He won't have a black mask or sabling there for much longer. He's 6 months old in this picture and 8 months now. His body patches are black. He has a large one on his offside but I don't have a picture of it.

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Would it be possible to see any picture of her off side? She has so much white that it is almost impossible to be sure about her real colour. For me what I see on the picture you posted is rather very heavy black mask + watermarking, not saddling, as the colour becomes lighter around the ears, not darker.

Here is where my question should have been placed - I am sorry for my mistake

 

[maggie217]

Ah yes, no wonder it shows up very rarely with those requirements.  Genetics gets beyond me when Locus etc. gets mentioned. I only understand the most basic mendelian rules.  Natalia, could you recommend a useful book or website please?  I do have the link to the excellent website mentioned above but need to understand a bit more of the basic genetic theory.
Very interesting topic.

Pauline

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It is medelian really, but involves many genes, so becomes a little bit more complicated, as you have to know not only which genes are recessive/dominant, but also which "come first" in the order (it is called "epistasis"), so are wisible regardless of other genes, and which are visible only when other genes are not present.You may start here, in fact it is not the best site I know, but I cannot find the site I prefer at the moment, it is either closed or moved somewhere. I will search for it later.

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Genetics.html

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Thanks very much for that link - that'll keep me busy for the mo.

Pauline

 

[Scudder]

Would it be possible to see any picture of her off side? She has so much white that it is almost impossible to be sure about her real colour.

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His colour :- "

I'll see what I can do! He has a fractured hock right now, so he's not standing too long for photo sessions. :'(

Kristen

 

[Seraphina]

Yes, this is a recessive form of the gene in locus A, so it is very rare to be able to see its presence. It requires that the dog does not have the gene for solid black/blue, does not have the gene for brindle, and does not have the gene for solid fawn (+does not have two genes for cream) to be able to see saddle markings or tricolour patern. It is a very rare combination.

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Surely solid fawn or bridle with saddle pattern gene, while not "tricolour", would still have black saddle? Like the Shamasan dog. And one with brindle gene will be a brindle tricolour, like this one

 

[Seraphina]

I do not think the watermarking has anything to do with the saddle pattern or tricolour black & tan genes. Watermarking is just sabling. The dark pigment in self coloured sable dogs tends to be stronger in the extremities. When dog has white marking = pigment free areas, the edges of the coloured areas are the extremities.

 

[Seraphina]

Y. It requires that the dog does not have the gene for solid black/blue, does not have the gene for brindle, and does not have the gene for solid fawn

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If dog would not have a fawn, brindle or black on the K locus, what would he have there?

 

[Natalia]

Yes, this is a recessive form of the gene in locus A, so it is very rare to be able to see its presence. It requires that the dog does not have the gene for solid black/blue, does not have the gene for brindle, and does not have the gene for solid fawn (+does not have two genes for cream) to be able to see saddle markings or tricolour patern. It is a very rare combination.

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Surely solid fawn or bridle with saddle pattern gene, while not "tricolour", would still have black saddle? Like the Shamasan dog. And one with brindle gene will be a brindle tricolour, like this one

Yes, thats, true, brindle dog can have saddle patern as well, although he will not be a tri in a common meaning of this. I think this is a very interesting colour, known only in bullterriers (besides whippets). Maybe there is any other breed, but I cannot recall any at the moment...
I put black/blue & tans with or without white into the same cathegory, as the amount of white has nothing to do with saddling, it is independantly inherited.

 

[Seraphina]

I put black/blue & tans with or without white into the same cathegory, as the amount of white has nothing to do with saddling, it is independantly inherited.

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Exactly. Tricolor dog has a pair of saddle genes on the A locus, it will have brindle or fawn on the K locus, and it will have particolour gene on the S locus, which will control the amount of white the dog will have.

 

[Natalia]

Y. It requires that the dog does not have the gene for solid black/blue, does not have the gene for brindle, and does not have the gene for solid fawn

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If dog would not have a fawn, brindle or black on the K locus, what would he have there?

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The gene for fawn is not in K locus, but in A.

K locus is like that:

K - solid black (blue dd are present, in other breeds also chocolate/liver, if bb is present )

K br - brindle (or blue brindle)

k - not a certain colour, but allows expression of A locus

And then A locus:

A y - fawn

a g - agouti (the presence of this allel in whippets is questionable)

a s - saddle marking

a t - black & tan (classic, clearly visible edges, like in doberman or manchester terrier) - not in whippets

a - rare recessive black, not in whippets

In theory fawn/red colour may also come from locus E, with recessive e for fed/fawn colour, but I am not sure if this combination exists in whippets. Of course ee dogs could not be saddle marked, as ee does not allow any black pigment to be formed in hair.

I have never found a cream gene in an official publication, but it seems to be a simple recessive trait, so the dog must be cr cr in this locus to be cream with liver nose, and this combinations comes before any other colur genes in expression, except white spotting, so a dog must be at least Cr cr to show its real colour.

Any dog with at least one K will be black (or blue), regardless of what has in A locus.

So, for a saddle black and tan whippet it must be kk as as Cr ?, for saddle brindle Kbr ? as as Cr ?.

Depending on what the dog has in S locus (white spotting) in may or may not be a tri (instead of solid).

 

[dessie]

Y. It requires that the dog does not have the gene for solid black/blue, does not have the gene for brindle, and does not have the gene for solid fawn

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If dog would not have a fawn, brindle or black on the K locus, what would he have there?

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The gene for fawn is not in K locus, but in A.

K locus is like that:

K - solid black (blue dd are present, in other breeds also chocolate/liver, if bb is present )

K br - brindle (or blue brindle)

k - not a certain colour, but allows expression of A locus

And then A locus:

A y - fawn

a g - agouti (the presence of this allel in whippets is questionable)

a s - saddle marking

a t - black & tan (classic, clearly visible edges, like in doberman or manchester terrier) - not in whippets

a - rare recessive black, not in whippets

In theory fawn/red colour may also come from locus E, with recessive e for fed/fawn colour, but I am not sure if this combination exists in whippets. Of course ee dogs could not be saddle marked, as ee does not allow any black pigment to be formed in hair.

I have never found a cream gene in an official publication, but it seems to be a simple recessive trait, so the dog must be cr cr in this locus to be cream with liver nose, and this combinations comes before any other colur genes in expression, except white spotting, so a dog must be at least Cr cr to show its real colour.

Any dog with at least one K will be black (or blue), regardless of what has in A locus.

So, for a saddle black and tan whippet it must be kk as as Cr ?, for saddle brindle Kbr ? as as Cr ?.

Depending on what the dog has in S locus (white spotting) in may or may not be a tri (instead of solid).

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Blimey!! Lost me totally now!!!

What would be a rare recessive black????

 

[Seraphina]

a - rare recessive black, not in whippets

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Is it the one that makes pure black GSD? Does it exist in any other breed?

In theory fawn/red colour may also come from locus E, with recessive e for fed/fawn colour, but I am not sure if this combination exists in whippets. Of course ee dogs could not be saddle marked, as ee does not allow any black pigment to be formed in hair.

It does exist in Whippet, there has been a litter discussed here on k9 in the racing section not so long ago, when 2 supposedly fawn dogs produced some brindles. They were genetically tested and paternity was correct. One of the parents was fawn and the other was ee red as well as brindle, which obviously was not apparent.