Vaccination

[~Annie~]

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I know we have some very knowledgeable folk on K9 so I thought I would run this by you.

I am concerned not to over vaccinate my dogs but am not convinced by the protection offered by homeopathic nosodes so I titre test. Finn's recent results (his first) were

1:320 for CPV (parvo) which is "expected to be protective"

1:80 for CDV (distemper) which "is reasonable at this level"

and 1:10 for CAV (adenovirus/infectious hepatitis) which "would not be expected to provide protection"

Finn was fully vaccinated as a pup and boostered at 1 year. If I had not requested the titre tests my vet would have expected that Finn be vaccinated again next year at 3 years old as the practice follows an every other year vaccination protocol*. In the light of the titre test results my vets view is that we stick with that protocol and vaccinate Finn in 12 mths time. Now either Finn is protected against CAV or he isn't, and if as the lab reports suggests he isn't why isn't my vet suggesting that Finn be vaccinated this year (and yes I know there isn't a monovalent CAV vaccine available)? I have great faith in all three of the vets at my practice but their inclination is still to vaccinate repeatedly even if they are moving with the times and doing so less frequently.

The research I have done suggests that CAV immunity generally lasts for at least 4 years after vaccination. And more importantly "the ability to detect antibody, regardless of titre, in a previously vaccinated and actively immune animal demonstrates that ‘‘memoryeffectorBcells’’ are present and functional (Phillips and Schultz, 1992; Schultz, 1998; Schultz and Conklin, 1998)." These are cells which "continue to produce antibody for years after initial immune stimulation (Schultz, 1998, 1999a,b; Schultz and Conklin, 1998; Rimmelzwaan and Osterhaus, 1997; Janeway et al., 2001)".

So given that "what may be a low and unprotective level in one animal would be a perfectly normal protective level in another" my inclination is to titre test again next year and only vaccinate if the CAV titre has decreased. My vet is unconvinced by this however.

So what would you do?

Annie

*The exception obviously is lepto. As my boys spend quite a lot of their time in and around local rivers/streams etc. (we live by a river) where there are plenty of rats and such and they are therefore potentially at high risk they are vaccinated against lepto biannually.

 

[jinnyfizz]

This is interesting, and an age-old discussion ...... to vaccinate or not to vaccinate?? As in humans, every dog will be different and also as with humans, the young and fit will normally have a much more effective immune system and the very young, frail and elderly will be the ones who need the protection.

I am lucky inasmuch as my dogs have very rarely, in the past, met any other dogs and we have effectively been a "closed pack". However, this will all change as I attend more shows, racing and lure coursing events so I am currently in a dilemma as to whether to booster vax my gang or leave them another year :unsure: I always have their initial vaccination course done as puppies.

I worked in veterinary medicine for a while a few years ago and the "marketing hype" for canine vaccination was pushing annual boosters (benefit to pharma company). However, it was widely accepted by the profession in those days that there was a high degree of herd immunity which offered protection in it's own right, but that then raises the question that if everyone stopped vaccinating because they believed all other dogs were vaccinated it may leave the door wide open to a disease epidemic!!

For my part, I will be following this thread with interest, as most of my gang are overdue or becoming due for a booster if I am to follow a 2 year regime such as your vet recommends and which I feel is probably a sensible option :thumbsup:

 

[masta]

the titre must cost more than the vaccine? if you are so concerned why not just have them boostered there is no clinical evidence to say that boostering within licsense is dangerous, i sell human vaccine and personally dont bother with boosters as they (dogs) should have enough immunological memory to spike an antibody response if they are ever exposed

 

[Tigernidster]

Interesting topic Annie.

I have been giving this some thought lately. Jodie (min) in now 12 and had been vaccinated annually as per our vet practice protocol. She has had a couple of bad reactions in the past (shivery, flu like, crying when lifted as if aching)- not serious but at her age it might become so this time.

My concern is, however, that it will invalidate her insurance cover if she is not done and as we have just paid almost £300 to cover her for another year I am unsure what to do.

 

[~Annie~]

The titre does cost more than the vaccine, but there is also quite a lot of evidence (scientific and anecdotal) re. the possible dangers of overvaccination.

 

[~Annie~]

Interesting topic Annie.
I have been giving this some thought lately. Jodie (min) in now 12 and had been vaccinated annually as per our vet practice protocol. She has had a couple of bad reactions in the past (shivery, flu like, crying when lifted as if aching)- not serious but at her age it might become so this time.

My concern is, however, that it will invalidate her insurance cover if she is not done and as we have just paid almost £300 to cover her for another year I am unsure what to do.

Hi Enid, how's the beautiful Lily?

The wording on my policy is

You must keep your dog vaccinated against distemper, hepatitis, leptospirosis and parvovirus or as

advised by your vet. All vaccinations must be administered under veterinary supervision. Homeopathic

vaccines are not acceptable. Furthermore there is no cover provided for these conditions in the event

that the required vaccinations have not been carried out.

Almost contradictory isn't it ... "as advised" by my vet is every other year but is that the same as "required"?

My take on this is that their titres are my guide as to the degree of risk ... Finn might just get CAV and then not be covered but it's a risk I'm prepared to take re. the insurance given that I'm pretty confident that I'm not taking a risk with his health in the first place.

Annie

 

[Tigernidster]

Hi Enid, how's the beautiful Lily?

There are not enough superlatives to do her justice, Annie! She is such a joy!

The wording on my policy is You must keep your dog vaccinated against distemper, hepatitis, leptospirosis and parvovirus or as

advised by your vet. All vaccinations must be administered under veterinary supervision. Homeopathic

vaccines are not acceptable. Furthermore there is no cover provided for these conditions in the event

that the required vaccinations have not been carried out.

Almost contradictory isn't it ... "as advised" by my vet is every other year but is that the same as "required"?

My take on this is that their titres are my guide as to the degree of risk ... Finn might just get CAV and then not be covered but it's a risk I'm prepared to take re. the insurance given that I'm pretty confident that I'm not taking a risk with his health in the first place.

Annie

and mine states "Dogs must be vaccinated/boosted against distemper, hepatitis, leptospirosis and parvovirus". I think that if my practice boosted every other year that would certainly be acceptable. However, that is not the case.

I intend to discuss it with the vet - surely if he deems her to be protected then that should be sufficient for the insurers this year. Same with Mandy and we can go down the road of titre testing possibilities next year.

 

[masta]

The titre does cost more than the vaccine, but there is also quite a lot of evidence (scientific and anecdotal) re. the possible dangers of overvaccination.

i would say its more anecdotal than evidence based although if you have any links to decent clinical papers i would be interested in reading them.

if you are concerned re the possible dangers of over vaccination, why bother with titres? because if the titre shows low response you will have to vaccinate anyway??

i work with human vaccine were any adverse reaction has to be reported and distributed worldwide and compared to the other pharmacueticals vaccines are extremley safe, i was at a conference recently were a consultant was giving a lecture on a typhoid vaccine that in 10 years had been given to 30 million + world wide and because there had been such a low reaction response he gave the analogy that there would have been more adverse reaction if the 30 million had recieved a teaspoon of mayonaise!

 

[masta]

Interesting topic Annie.
I have been giving this some thought lately. Jodie (min) in now 12 and had been vaccinated annually as per our vet practice protocol. She has had a couple of bad reactions in the past (shivery, flu like, crying when lifted as if aching)- not serious but at her age it might become so this time.

My concern is, however, that it will invalidate her insurance cover if she is not done and as we have just paid almost £300 to cover her for another year I am unsure what to do.

the flu like symtoms your dog experienced is not the vaccine but the aduvant in the vaccine, the aduvant (normally aluminium) is there to spike a quick antibody response ie when injected the body recognises a foreign body (aluminium) and starts a a B cell response ie builds a defence system.

New human vaccine are starting to be developed using different methods to combat this reaction we have a Virosomal Hep A vaccine made with a killed flu virus which is clinically shown to be 50% less painful than its rivals using aduvants

 

[jinnyfizz]

Unfortunately I have forgotten more than I remember about vaccines, titre tests etc but I seem to recall a discussion in the past about testing in vivo versus in vitro.

Every time the dog (or human) is challenged by a virus/disease, the immune response activates and the antibody levels rise. This in turn increases the immunity to that particular virus.

Does this not mean that, unless the dog is challenged by the virus itself, we cannot measure true antibody levels and titre testing will only show the levels in an unchallenged situation?

In real life, our dogs are challenged on numerous occasions by viral infections but their immune systems fight off the challenge and we never know they have been in the situation.

The other point is that we can only produce vaccines in response to strains of disease which we already know about. If the strain drifts or shifts (evolves) into another type, we then have to develop a new vaccine to cope with this. Therefore, are we not vaccinating pointlessly against established strains which our dogs' immune systems already cope with?

I remember a vet saying (a long time ago) that puppy vaccinations were necessary but boosters were "vets' pocketmoney"!

 

[~Annie~]

The titre does cost more than the vaccine, but there is also quite a lot of evidence (scientific and anecdotal) re. the possible dangers of overvaccination.

i would say its more anecdotal than evidence based although if you have any links to decent clinical papers i would be interested in reading them.

Sorry, can't link to most of what I've read, I'm an academic and have electronic access to the journals via the university library, but I'll fish out the references when I get a minute. But finding a peer-reviewed clinical study by a disinterested party is not easy ... as in human medicine most of the funding comes from the companies that manufacture the vaccines. You could argue that no one has categorically proven a link between vaccination and illness (although take a look at the Purdue University studies) but you could also argue that no one has proved that there isn't a link. That said, you might find this interesting ... it includes the statement that "Our research on duration of immunity for the CPV-2, CDV and CAV vaccines has demonstrated a minimum duration of immunity of 7 years; the maximum duration of immunity may be for the life of most (>80%) vaccinated animals". So why are vets vaccinating every one, two or three years? Even if the evidence suggesting that annual vaccination is problematic was entirely anecdotal why vaccinate more often than is necessary?

if you are concerned re the possible dangers of over vaccination, why bother with titres? because if the titre shows low response you will have to vaccinate anyway??

Exactly, and if the titre is at a protective level then I don't need to vaccinate again at this time. My original question related to whether Finn's 1:10 CAV titre was in fact protective, given that the presence of any antibodies suggests the potential to produce more when under attack. It is perfectly possible though that his test results would have shown an absence of antibodies to e.g. CAV in which case clearly I would have revaccinated. As I'm sure you know titre testing isn't a perfect science but it's a good place to start.

i work with human vaccine were any adverse reaction has to be reported and distributed worldwide and compared to the other pharmacueticals vaccines are extremley safe, i was at a conference recently were a consultant was giving a lecture on a typhoid vaccine that in 10 years had been given to 30 million + world wide and because there had been such a low reaction response he gave the analogy that there would have been more adverse reaction if the 30 million had recieved a teaspoon of mayonaise!

It's not an adverse reaction to the vaccine that I'm worried about, it's the accumulative effect on a dogs immune response etc. and the risk of e.g. auto-immune mediated diseases.

Annie

Edited to reiterate that I am all in favour of puppy vacs and boosters at I yr but not of annual vaccination thereafter.

 

[masta]

Unfortunately I have forgotten more than I remember about vaccines, titre tests etc but I seem to recall a discussion in the past about testing in vivo versus in vitro. Every time the dog (or human) is challenged by a virus/disease, the immune response activates and the antibody levels rise. This in turn increases the immunity to that particular virus.

Does this not mean that, unless the dog is challenged by the virus itself, we cannot measure true antibody levels and titre testing will only show the levels in an unchallenged situation?

In real life, our dogs are challenged on numerous occasions by viral infections but their immune systems fight off the challenge and we never know they have been in the situation.

The other point is that we can only produce vaccines in response to strains of disease which we already know about. If the strain drifts or shifts (evolves) into another type, we then have to develop a new vaccine to cope with this. Therefore, are we not vaccinating pointlessly against established strains which our dogs' immune systems already cope with?

I remember a vet saying (a long time ago) that puppy vaccinations were necessary but boosters were "vets' pocketmoney"!

:thumbsup: once vaccinated they will have immunological memory in exactly the same way a puppy/baby builds their lifelong immunity system through being exposed in their early years

 

[chelle123]

just a note to say there is now alot of pet insurances out there that will give you loife cover for your pet even if not vaccinated pet-insurance.co.uk and direct line just to name 2, but what that means if they contract something ie lepto that they could have been vaccintated against but werent then your liable for the bill, but if you feel your dog is immunised after puppy/booster at year then you can stick by your beliefs and not get a dog boostered. But after my old girl died last month of suspected lepto i read up on this disease and most websites and the company and dick vet informed me the lepto vaccination actually only lasts 6 months not a year as you normally vaccinate for 6 months of the year you pet is not covered for lepto.

 

[FeeFee]

Interesting topic, and something I've been looking into recently because I am also very concerned about over vaccination - but I'm also old enough to remember the days when diseases like distemper were a killer, and many dogs died from illnesses we can now vaccinate against.

One thing to be aware of is that the protocol for boosters depends on which vaccines your vet uses. Vaccines are licensed on the basis of the minimum period of immunity they confer, and some are still only licensed for one year so vets who use them are obliged to recommend annual boosters, and kennels and insurers, for instance, can only accept them as valid if they are boostered annually.

Some vaccines such as Intervet (Nobivac) are now recognised as giving immunity against viral diseases (distemper, hepatitis and parvo) for three years, so my vet only boosters lepto annually (this is a bacterial, not a viral disease, so the body doesn't build up a long-term immunity in the same way), the rest are given every three years, which is a regime I'm reasonably happy with. I've heard that Intervet are working towards having their vaccine licence extended to a four year protocol, but it's quite a slow process gathering evidence and getting it accepted.

If my vet was still suggesting annual boosters for everything I'd definitely be asking why they aren't using a vaccine which is licensed to give 3-year cover.

 

[~Annie~]

Interesting topic, and something I've been looking into recently because I am also very concerned about over vaccination - but I'm also old enough to remember the days when diseases like distemper were a killer, and many dogs died from illnesses we can now vaccinate against.
One thing to be aware of is that the protocol for boosters depends on which vaccines your vet uses. Vaccines are licensed on the basis of the minimum period of immunity they confer, and some are still only licensed for one year so vets who use them are obliged to recommend annual boosters, and kennels and insurers, for instance, can only accept them as valid if they are boostered annually.

Some vaccines such as Intervet (Nobivac) are now recognised as giving immunity against viral diseases (distemper, hepatitis and parvo) for three years, so my vet only boosters lepto annually (this is a bacterial, not a viral disease, so the body doesn't build up a long-term immunity in the same way), the rest are given every three years, which is a regime I'm reasonably happy with. I've heard that Intervet are working towards having their vaccine licence extended to a four year protocol, but it's quite a slow process gathering evidence and getting it accepted.

If my vet was still suggesting annual boosters for everything I'd definitely be asking why they aren't using a vaccine which is licensed to give 3-year cover.

Good point, although the vacs licensed for 3 years probably give cover for very much longer.

Re. the lepto, because there are a lot of water rats where my dogs are run they are vaccinated against lepto every six months.

Annie

 

[FeeFee]

I'm sure they probably do give cover for longer for most dogs, and the fact Intervet are trying to extend their licence to four years must mean that they are pretty confident it gives at least four year immunity, but neither they nor vets are allowed to say so because it hasn't been fully tested yet.

I choose to keep my dogs boosters current because it is a condition of their insurance. I've also been in a position once in the past of having to kennel my dogs at short notice when we had a family emergency (I don't normally kennel them) and if they hadn't had current vaccinations I'm not sure what we'd have done as the kennels couldn't have accepted them. I'm definitely happier with a 3-year regime than with boostering every year, but it's still a compromise.

It is a worry though, and I may choose not to vaccinate Benji, the little 15 year old I took in earlier this year. He has epilepsy and allergies, and I'm not keen to put anything into his system that's not absolutely essential so I will probably get him titre tested and decide on the basis of the results (though from your experience that might not be straightforward either :wacko: )

 

[Towy]

interesting topic, remember a vet i used to go to said there was no point in having annual vaccs following the intial course as the animal would build his own antibodies as he got older

 

[~Annie~]

Im going to throw a spanner in the works here, mine arent vaccinated at all.

Why?

Edited to say I take it that your rewritten post is the answer?

 

[Towy]

Thought i had better, yes they had their puppy vaccs and that is all they have had, Towy now is 11 and the others younger, did think about it in June being publicised as vaccination month but stayed with the original advice. He also stated it was the same for tetanus vaccs for horses.

 

[k4tie-d]

im a little confussed here,

i thought it was a yearly booster and that was it???

when we joined our vet we were given a vacination book, which has a page for each year to be stamped and with little details ie, weight and check up stuff.

we got all the jags at 8 and 10 weeks then were sent letters from the vet about boosters for a year old, there was no option of every 2/3/4 years??

is it different advice at different vets, or different areas? (scotland/england)

im not sure what i would have done, if i was given the option,

but its £63 for the two of them to have their boosters its quite a bit of money for every year, if it could be just as effective every couple of years :b