Wag The Dog.

[BeeJay]

Join our free community today.

Connect with other like-minded dog lovers!

Login or Register

>BTW LYTH is (or at least was. It may have lapsed now) a registered affix with the KC in the UK. It's been around quite a long time.

I have Lyth whippets in my UK database. You went to Nimrodel Ruff who as well as being a great show dog was a good coursing dog.

 

[tlewis]

>BTW LYTH is (or at least was. It may have lapsed now) a registered affix with the KC in the UK. It's been around quite a long time.
I have Lyth whippets in my UK database.  You went to Nimrodel Ruff who as well as being a great show dog was a good coursing dog.

Yes that's true. One of the breedings I did was to Ch Nimrodel Ruff.

I have an old picture of one of the resulting pups, Lyth Sonata 18 lbs. She won quite a few handicaps at the old Telford Whippet Racing club and I showed her several times.

One of her claims to fame was in winning her class at The Whippet Clubs 80th Anniversary Championship Show at, if I remember correctly, an RAF base! Didn't the Whippet Club just hold it's 100th Anniversary show? How time flies when you are having fun! She, along with her brothers and sisters would be banned by CWA!!

One of her brothers was exported to the USA and shown. He gained enough points for his Ch. but not the majors required. He was with a professional handler and the dog hated being on the road so the owner never finished him.

 

[tlewis]

>In reading your comments Tony - and reading the article it would appear that it >is YOU as much as the dogs that are banned by CWA - I apologise right away if I >have misconstrued this.

Yes, myself, my dogs and dogs bred by someone else that I may own now or have owned in the past.

>The question I would ask is this ..... do the main racing organisations you mention all insist on AKC registrations as a pre-requesite of their membership? Or do they have whippet racing with anything that LOOKS like a whippet?

All Whippets racing in the USA are registered with the American Kennel Club or The Canadian Kennel club. There is no non pedigree racing in N.America.

If AKC registration is a must, and presumably yours comply, then the WCRA, as an extention of the UK Whippet Club, and therefore tied to our own Kennel Club cannot in fairness ban YOUR AKC registered dogs, regardless of what may or may not have happened in the past.

Tell that to the WCRA!

>If on the other hand NAWRA is like the BWRA in the UK where KC registration not >only doesn't matter, but litters can be openly produced from small greyhounds, >then maybe CWA is exactly who the WCRA should be taking notice of.

See above. NAWRA is not like the BWRA. All dogs racing with NAWRA MUST be registered with the AKC and must measure in. The same with WRA and NOTRA.

>It is not so very long ago that some litters here were under the spotlight as being "suspicious" and although nothing was ever proved it left a lot of bad feeling a

>nd ill-will in our sport, so you can understand the WCRA wanting to do everything >they possibly can to keep it "clean"

Of course. I have absolutely no problem with that, but reason and logic must come into that too.

>All countries Kennel Club registration's are no guarantee that a resulting litter is >by whom it is supposed to be - only DNA tests can prove that, and costs are so >prohibitive that they are rarely called for

No problem with that either. At the time of my "Problem" with NAWRA I offered to have dogs tested by the AKC but they declined as they could see no evidence of any wrong doing. Many people have made light of an AKC investigation. They obviously have never had to undergo one. AKC investigators are drawn from the ranks of law enforcement and are usually retired detectives. Of the two investigators who questioned and investigated myself, one was a retired New York detective and the other former FBI. It was no walk in the park I can assure you. The AKC has teeth!

>I intend no disrespect to you Tony, or indeed to the BWRA by this, just trying to >talk through the logic is all

Ah logic!! No disrispect received Ian. I welcome any and all questions and obsevations.

 

[BeeJay]

1) if you were to import a racing bred peddie whippet from the UK whose parents had WCRA passports would you be able to register and race that dog with the CWA?
  NO

2) If you imported 2 such whippets (dog and bitch) from the UK both with parents who have WCRA passports and you bred them so that they would have Lyth affixs. Would you or people that you sold them to be able to register and race those pups?

NOT WITH CWA.  Even if they didn't have Lyth affix's but I had bred the pups.

Your answers mean (I think)

1) That you could import a whippet with a WCRA passport and it would be banned by the CWA simply because you own it.

Which would mean that under the reciprocal agreement the WCRA would have to rescind it's passport. Also if you were to return that dog to the UK then it would no longer hold a valid passport. Simply because the CWA had banned it.

2) If you were to own a dog and bitch that both held a WCRA passport and then you bred from them. Any resulting pups would be ineligable for racing under both CWA and WCRA rules.

Theoretically this could mean that you could own dogs bred by the present WCRA committee which they would have to ban. ie they'd have to ban dogs of their own breeding. (w00t) All this no matter that there is nothing wrong with the bloodlines at all so therefore nothing wrong with the dog.

So another hypothetical question occurs to me. What would happen if you were the named owner of a UK whippet who never left this country but was going to race here under your name. ie it stayed with it's breeder but you were the named owner? As happens here with show dogs bred by others but bought into another big kennel you could put your affix onto that dogs name. ie originally registered as Spirit name changed to Lyth Spirit that kind of thing.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Seems to me it's the person thats banned as apposed to the breeding? but i'd certainly say the CWA need to re-asses the situation.

 

[Judy]

>but what if a dog was bred by someone else, sired by one of your dogs but >owned by someone else. Would that be banned ?
Yes.  This has in fact happened.

>Also what if the sire was owned by you but not itself bred by you and didn't have >any 'Lyth' in its pedigree - would the puppies still be banned by the CWA even if >they didn't have any dogs of your breeding in the pedigree on either side?

>Judy

Yes. This also has happened.The sire was owned by myself, but bred by a breeder in England.

(w00t)

So, because you owned him, even though you didn't breed him or any of his ancestors - all the descendants of Malbon Redcent would not be allowed to race with the CWA then? Even those that have not got one single dog in their pedigree anywhere that was bred you?

 

[BeeJay]

>So, because you owned him, even though you didn't breed him or any of his ancestors - all the descendants of Malbon Redcent would not be allowed to race with the CWA then? Even those that have not one single dog in their pedigree anywhere that was bred you?

(w00t)

To quote Scott this would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious!

 

[tlewis]

>So, because you owned him, even though you didn't breed him or any of his >ancestors - all the descendants of Malbon Redcent would not be allowed to race >with the CWA then? Even those that have not got one single dog in their pedigree >anywhere that was bred you?

Theoretically , yes. You'd really have to ask the CWA. They bend their rules from time to time. Ask nicely!

Another point comes into play when you are talking CWA. They have a rule that allows Besaps and Andy Thor as long as they are five generations back in the pedigree. (There are dogs running now with Andy Thor and I'd guess soon with Besaps)

That means that dogs allowed in CWA wouldn't be allowed in WCRA, but as CWA recognizes bans from WCRA they should be banned by CWA!! :unsure:

With regard to myself the ban is for any dog owned or bred by myself during my lifetime. Once I'm dead the five generation rule would come into place.

The more you dig the more confusing it becomes. I'd say that CWA relies on that to do what they want. According to their rules they don't actually HAVE to give you ANY reason for not accepting a dog.

As I said before, CWA is of no importance to the vast majority of US Whippet racers. It seems it is to the WCRA.

GOT IT?

 

[Strike Whippets]

The more you dig the more confusing it becomes.

Your telling me :wacko: :blink: (w00t)

 

[Strike Whippets]

Another point comes into play when you are talking CWA.  They have a rule that allows Besaps and Andy Thor as long as they are five generations back in the pedigree. (There are dogs running now with Andy Thor and I'd guess soon with Besaps)That means that dogs allowed in CWA wouldn't be allowed in WCRA, but as CWA recognizes bans from WCRA they should be banned by CWA!! :unsure:

See i got told that a "popular" line/dog in America is not allowed due to Andy Thor being behind this dog ............he was 6 generations away (7 if you include the puppy) :unsure: ........Very confusing :wacko: .........and if the CWA and the WCRA go by their own rules by upholding any ban (be it a dog or person), by any pedigree racing organization........then in theory between both racing clubs they should start cancelling alot of racing lines out ........At this rate no one will ever be able to import a racing line

 

[IanGerman]

Ok - well having sorted that out - kinda .... I guess the 64000 dollar question is "Does this actually affect anyone in whippet racing on either side of the water IN REAL TERMS?"

To qualify that ... we have seen/heard already from an American racer about how very much bigger the American racers are, and how they don't run in weight groups, but all in. So quite why someone racing in the American sport would want one of OUR much smaller dogs is a bit of a mystery. Likewise coming the other way - who here, would want to either take an American dog which would in all probability be too big to race, and likely to throw/whelp big pups if bred from?

I agree with the original post that the CWA ban seems illogical, and likewise the WCRA's stance on this matter, but either I am missing the point or it really matters very little in the real world.

By the way Tony - there's no need to copy the whole of a previous post when you reply to it - just aim your answer at the postee

And slightly off-topic, I have only heard bits and pieces of the Beesaps thing - I'd be interested to hear the whole story

 

[tlewis]

. So quite why someone racing in the American sport would want one of OUR much smaller dogs is a bit of a mystery. Likewise coming the other way - who here, would want to either take an American dog which would in all probability be too big to race, and likely to throw/whelp big pups if bred from?

Well Ian you are correct. Americans don't now want English dogs for racing.

There is quite a lot of importing of whippets for racing but they are all coming from Continental Europe. The Europeans race like they do in the US off scratch and to a height limit. The reasons to import dogs are to help keep the size down without losing any speed and to give you an outcross when you start getting too inbred.

As far as I can tell from times the European dogs are faster than the English dogs. It's not easy to compare the two because the Eu dogs only run bends.

Last time I was in England I got the distinct impression that English race dogs were getting "Weedy" That may not be a fair comparison because I only saw dogs at one open and of course pictures in the Whippet news. Not all of them for sure, but a high proportion.

Not all US dogs are monsters! The leading Whippet Racing Association dog (actually a bitch) could weigh in I beleive in England. A shot of US blood may work wonders. You don't know 'till you try. It worked supremely well with racing greyhounds.

It's most unfortunate that the race whippet last imported to the USA turned out to be a dud. He had good breeding but turned out slow and his pups even slower plus I understand he was a monorchid. If he had turned out to be a good 'un more breeders in the US would be looking for English racers.

The US has always been able to import the best show or race whippets without and restrictions. It's only within the last year or two that the UK has been able to do the same.

The show folks seem to have taken full advantage of this, but the race community seems resistant to change.

 

[Strike Whippets]

Ok - well having sorted that out - kinda .... I guess the 64000 dollar question is "Does this actually affect anyone in whippet racing on either side of the water IN REAL TERMS?"

Yes i want to import .......... (w00t)

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

plus I understand he was a monorchid. 

An English racer with only one ball!!! Are you quite sure about that?



Don't know if there's been a concious effort to improve type but there seem to be less "weedy" ones around than there were five or six years ago. Think the input from the two Cap'n Poldark X Leading Lady litters may have had some effect on looks & type. Time's too do seem to be improving from what I see on this board & the peds that race at our "open" club. I do think racing is painting itself into a corner genetically speaking & does need a shot of something else. Wether that shot comes from show,coursing or imported stock is worth talking about.

Terry Smith

 

[John E Greenwood]

plus I understand he was a monorchid. 

An English racer with only one ball!!! Are you quite sure about that?



Don't know if there's been a concious effort to improve type but there seem to be less "weedy" ones around than there were five or six years ago. Think the input from the two Cap'n Poldark X Leading Lady litters may have had some effect on looks & type. Time's too do seem to be improving from what I see on this board & the peds that race at our "open" club. I do think racing is painting itself into a corner genetically speaking & does need a shot of something else. Wether that shot comes from show,coursing or imported stock is worth talking about.

Terry Smith

There's no need to talk about it, Terry.......just do it.....as breeders, we can select ANY pedigree lines....I personally think that the BEST (in my opinion) racing lines are superior to most coursing lines.....some showing lines seem to have something to offer in terms of temperament, if you are prepared to loose out on some performance.

It is too easy to catagorise dogs...all racing dogs are weedy, all American dogs are big, etc....Thankfully there are enough whippets about, that a large variation can be seen within all the diciplines....One often hears the view offered that one attribute excludes another, eg. a dog is either a stayer OR a sprinter....I'm looking for one which is both.

There is a danger IMO of over-regulation......the tighter the rules are for competition, in terms of distances run, handicaping etc., is it not true that the smaller will be the group of dogs genetically adapted to win those competitions, and so in-breeding will becaome more of a problem....If there were some 400 or 500yd races, and some scratch races, then a broader section of the population would be capable of winning and so a larger number of top class stud dogs would be available to choose from, less in-breeding.

One aspect of importing is speculation....the great unknown...always a tempting area for breeders of any livestock...is the grass ALWAYS greener??...I still haven't seen any times for these American dogs, I think times have been asked for on several occassions.

Your predicament would, indeed be funny, if it were not so serious, Tony....but are any of us with experience of committees and petty officialdom, surprised???

 

[Terry & Sheila Smith]

  There's no need to talk about it, Terry.......just do it

I thought I always had John, only Joe has anything like race breeding in him & thats pretty diluted. In fact as you may know the last time I inquired about the service's of a "race bred" stud I got fobbed off with lame excuses. I merely meant it would be a worthwhile discussion & worth getting the opinions of others. Anyway think I've retired from breeding now personal circumstances being as they are.

[SIZE=14pt]It is too easy to catagorise dogs...all racing dogs are weedy, all American dogs are big, etc....Thankfully there are enough whippets about, that a large variation can be seen within all the diciplines....One often hears the view offered that one attribute excludes another, eg. a dog is either a stayer OR a sprinter....I'm looking for one which is both[/SIZE]

You & I have discussed this a few times & generally seemed to agree I thought. Personally I think you (generic you ) could also try for decent looks & two balls at the same time.

[SIZE=14pt]I personally think that the BEST (in my opinion) racing lines are superior to most coursing lines.....some showing lines seem to have something to offer in terms of temperament, if you are prepared to loose out on some performance.[/SIZE]

I mentioned this on the show forum some month's ago, last year an all show bred dog in "show condition" i.e fit but not hard did 18.60 round Ellesmere Port (290m) a better time than 2 dogs bred from racing champions. True this dog is nearer 40lbs than 32lbs but he is probably less than 21" he certainly isn't as tall as Ben. While we are on the subject Ben was all show bred & did 17.22 to outside hare & 16.70 to inside hare round W/houghton & could hit around 9.6...ish over 150 at his peak & 150 wasn't his trip. You may possibly lose some performance for a generation or two which of course means horror of horrors no success for some time but the overall gain in bone, type etc would be worth it. At least for me it would be.

[SIZE=14pt]There is a danger IMO of over-regulation......the tighter the rules are for competition, in terms of distances run, handicaping etc., is it not true that the smaller will be the group of dogs genetically adapted to win those competitions, and so in-breeding will becaome more of a problem....If there were some 400 or 500yd races, and some scratch races, then a broader section of the population would be capable of winning and so a larger number of top class stud dogs would be available to choose from, less in-breeding.[/SIZE]

I totally agree with you on that.

[SIZE=14pt]One aspect of importing is speculation....the great unknown...always a tempting area for breeders of any livestock...is the grass ALWAYS greener??...I still haven't seen any times for these American dogs, I think times have been asked for on several occassions. [/SIZE]

We were on a couple of yank dominated lists for some years & saw quite a few times posted. Their bigger dogs seem to be doing what a middle sized non-ped does time wise. They seem to be a tad slower than similar sized scratch & no limit non-peds.

[SIZE=14pt]Your predicament would, indeed be funny, if it were not so serious, Tony....but are any of us with experience of committees and petty officialdom, surprised???[/SIZE]

Not much fun in being an official if you can't spoil somebodys day

Terry Smith

 

[Strike Whippets]

One aspect of importing is speculation....the great unknown...always a tempting area for breeders of any livestock...is the grass ALWAYS greener??...I still haven't seen any times for these American dogs, I think times have been asked for on several occassions.

I am looking into importing a racer as [SIZE=14pt]I[/SIZE] personally want to :thumbsup: .......I do feel that our racers gene pool is becoming very small, and I like the look and style of the American racers ......Just for the record ....I am not looking to importing as i think that an American racing bred is going to be faster than our English racers :angry: They are two different types of Whippet, and we all know that our Whippets are only bred for sprinting :- " :lol:

 

[tlewis]

I still haven't seen any times for these American dogs, I think times have been asked for on several occassions.
Your predicament would, indeed be funny, if it were not so serious, Tony....but are any of us with experience of committees and petty officialdom, surprised???

Times.

A grade "A" dog would have to be capable of running between 11 secs to 11.5 secs to be competitive. That's quite a wide margin but given the the differences in tracks, weather and the usual variables in racing it is accurate.

That is over 200 yds all off scratch, the only distance raced on the straights. Puppies 8-14 months run 150 yds. I had a friend time one of my best dogs a few years ago at the 150 mark in a 200 yd race. The first race was 8.3 secs and the fourth was 8.5 secs. (All dogs run four times on the straight.) This dog weighed 38lbs.

On the bends a dog would have to run under 23 secs for the 350 metre oval to be a top contender.

This is about the same time the best dogs run in Europe but they run on much better faster permenant tracks. There are a greater variety of distances on the oval.

Actually I don't think I have a predicament. I easily sell what few puppies I breed in the USA. It would have been more of a sentmental journey than anything, for me to have sent a dog back to England to compete. Just a bit of interesting sporting fun.

You never know. I may still do it. That is one reason I was interested in the recent 400 yd uphill race/course. I'm still not sure which it was. Then there is lure coursing! Maybe I could get someone to take a dog open field coursing for me.

(That is if it survives!!)

I'd say the predicament was the WCRA's some where down the road.

 

[Mark Roberts]

then a broader section of the population would be capable of winning and so a larger number of top class stud dogs would be available to choose from, less in-breeding.

it's not that the stud dogs are not there! (or potentially there) the problem is breeders are often like sheep and follow what everyone else is useing rather than taking a chance on some thing new/unused.

 

[Judy]

breeders are often like sheep and follow what everyone else is useing rather than taking a chance on some thing new/unused.

That comment made me smile Mark. I think you are right and wrong . I've noticed that after any dog has been used a few times and has become a popular stud, there always seems to be a bit of a backlash against him. I've quite often heard people say they wanted to use a dog just because nobody else had. There are always people who like to be the first to use a dog and some just like to be different. Of course sometimes the 'popular' stud dog would have actually been the better dog for their bitch but its just as well I suppose that new dogs do get used for whatever reason.