Wcra Rule Clarification

[Scott Frodsham]

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No arguments from me, I had a good day out and thank all at Gloucester. :huggles:

I was merely seeking clarification of the rules and stating an opinion. :b

It was not my intention to have a pop at anybody as I appreciate how difficult it can be getting people to put their heads on the block and officiate. :unsure:

Regards,

Scott.

 

[Darcia]

Hi Scott,

Sorry, was I sounding defensive. I didn't mean your comments on the thread here, but some of the unhelpful ones that were made on Sunday. I think that we will genuinely be in the position where nobody will want to do the job soon.

As it was my last but one open still being in charge (I am standing down as Secretary after the Scratch Open in July) I really wanted it to go well and I was really pleased with all the positive feedback that we have received.

Congrats on El Diablo's win in the Cons.

Darcia

 

[Mark Roberts]

Hi Darcia, I had heard rumours you were to stand down as Secretary but hoped it would be just rumours, as I know how much work you put in behind the scenes running the club that nobody see's or appreciats.

for me your open ran well and I realy thought the longer grass on the track and especialy the longer grass at the finish was fantastic.

hope everything goes well for you in the future and look forward to seeing you both at the opens.

 

[Nigel]

Maybe the WCRA (I can hear the committee groaning from here  :lol: ) should do a teach-in every now and again to bring interested parties up to date with their racing rules.  Or maybe they do but I've never got to hear about it. 

I'm sure if everyone had the same understanding and interpetation of the fighting rules there would be less of a problem and less bad feeling resulting from a disqualification.

I have seen dogs disqualified where in my opinion have been doing nothing more than

a) leaning and barking,

b) banging into a dog when trying to move away from another dog

c) running green & trying to jump over the dog in front...

Anything that can be done to help define what fighting is and what it isn't i'm sure would be welcome by everyone.

 

[Mark Roberts]

You will never get everyone agreeing on when/if fighting has occured even if 99% of racers see it very few owners ever do.

 

[john&elaine]

opening a can of worms hmm. if we are talking about the same dog its his 3rd time in about six months. i did not see him turn is head but he bumped aggresively to take the other dog out

 

[Scott Frodsham]

My original post was not to single out an individual dog, but the process of re-trials! :b

 

[Mark Roberts]

The problem of re-clearing a dog will always be a problem as it's often difficult to get dogs of the right ability for the trial, as you often get many offers from friends ect willing to let their dogs be used but to set a trial up so as to give the dog the best offer to offend which at the end of the day that is the idea of the clearing trials to actually give the dog the every opertunity to fight can be difficult of the dogs are not of the right ability ie: some slower & some faster than the offender.

 

[Judy]

you do then see the odd dog that persistantly runs along side another bumping it all the way down the track this can and often does change the result of a race but where would you then draw the line between acceptable and unacceptable bumping ?

You cannot disqualify for merely bumping no matter how deliberate you might think it is. The rule (4.30) is quite clear on this. It says "Fighting occurs when a whippet deliberately and aggressively impedes the progress of one or more whippets during a race by turning its head"

If it hasn't turned it's head (to try and bite) during the bumping then it's not fighting even if it is impeding.

Another part of the rule says "It is not fighting when a whippet 'lays on' another whippet to stop it passing." i.e when it's impeding.

Think of the word fighting as it would apply to a person. Its not fighting if a person elbows and pushes their way through a crowd or even sticks their arm out to stop somebody getting past them - but if they punch somebody then it is.

 

[Scott Frodsham]

I never thought!

Apologies to whoever the dog that I've used as an example is! :b

As I posted earlier, I do not wish to single out any dogs, officials or define fighting. I merely wanted clarification on the re-trialing process!

Regards,

Scott.

 

[Strike Whippets]

All i know is that we let the Whippets get away with so much more than any Greyhound would be allowed to ..........I do know though that there are dogs out there who race week after week deliberatly bumping, banging and impeding other dogs and in all of my years of studying and working with dogs i do know that no dog would put itself into this position unless it is a dominant dog who is testing the dog it is running with :unsure: .......and using this method of being pushy and banging etc is such an obviouse sign of aggression :- " The dogs body language is so subtle that us mere humans can bearly read it most of the time, so just because theres no turning of the head etc it dosn't mean that theres not really nasty dominant, pushy dogs out there who run week after week and they get away with putting other dogs off all of the time

No one here is picking on any dog from Sunday................. but i must say that i'd much rather run my dogs with a dog that has "a go", than with a dog that bangs and bumps all the way up the track race after race after race :wacko:

 

[Judy]

I am not so sure that greyhounds don't get away with a lot of bumping. I've seen them bang quite a bit. Remember as well that greyhound racing is a betting medium and revolves around making things "fair" for the punter. It is a sport that is driven by completely different goals to whippet racing.

I know what you mean about dogs that bump, they may well be dominant and aggressive but that doesn't mean that the rules can be disregarded. As you say, their body language can be subltle so we shouldn't presume to know what is in their heads because different people will think different things - hence a rule to cover it. There is more to being a good racing dog than speed - dominance and pushiness can help. Being easy to put off doesn't. It might not seem "fair" in our human terms but in canine terms it's a fact of life.

 

[Strike Whippets]

What have you started Scott ??

I know what you are saying about dogs that bump but i do feel so strongly that it's wrong that when Inca was bumping and banging i actually pulled her off the track as it was just a battle of domenance going up the track instead of chasing the lure truly :wacko: Prehaps i was wrong to do so as at least she was running all of the way up the track but i had to feel for all of the dogs that she was trying to intimidate as i've been there with Jacob being knocked from pillar to post and i knew what it felt like .................No dog would put itself at risk like this, if they were hunting they would all pull together instead of wasting time and energy by knocking each other around, they would also not risk injuring themselves like this ...............Just go's to show that there's alot of slightly dodgy dogs out there

 

[Mark Roberts]

that there's alot of slightly dodgy dogs out there

far to many.

 

[Strike Whippets]

Well i shouldn't complain really as i've been told by more than a few people that Inca's planned litter will all be dodgy .....oh and they'll probably be fighters in there as well for good measure :unsure: ........So there we have it !!!!! So we must hope for the future of these pup's that the fighting rule stays so vague .......................Seriously though i do feel that alot of Whippet people do keep an extra eye on past offending dogs which is hard for that dog and its owners as the dog seems to not get away with anything, where as other dogs are getting away with worse things on the same day and nothings said

 

[Mark Roberts]

where as other dogs are getting away with worse things on the same day and nothings said 

Thats called politics Hannah

 

[IanGerman]

As Judy pointed out in a reply here the offence of "fighting" is the mere turning of the head and this very fact can lead some people who witness such an act of aggression ( :blink: ) to demand a dog's disqualification. Usually they are the 3rd placers - funny that. And while I was racing manager I have had just such incidents and due to the wording of the rules they place racing managers in a difficult position. Not impossible, because "at the racing managers discretion" leaves some room to manoever at least!

Until Lisa I had never really had a "nobbler" problem, so when she proved so damn persistent at it I got more than a little annoyed. Yet due to the leniency of whippet rules she lived to fight another day (joke!) and finally had her first official race at the grand age of 5 years 11 months! And I can admit this now - in her third race she was given the benefit of the doubt, and I'm grateful for that - because if I had been race manager that day I'd have flagged her! (she did go on to run faultlessly in her 2 further runs that day) And I have to agree with what others have said about clearing trials being sometimes less than conclusive, but they are the best option, indeed probably the only option. Greyhounds are three strikes and out I believe - and out for good.

In my opinion fighting should only be deemed such against a dog that barks and aggressively "goes in" with his turned head in an obvious act of aggression, anything else is really just competitiveness.

My tuppence worth

 

[Judy]

In my opinion fighting should only be deemed such against a dog that barks and aggressively "goes in" with his turned head in an obvious act of aggression, anything else is really just competitiveness.
My tuppence worth

Well put Ian :thumbsup:

I don't think fighting is the mere turning of the head though. The rule says it's got to be deliberate and agressive and impede the progress of the other dog.

 

[IanGerman]

I agree Judy - but the point more often picked up on by competitors is the turning of head bit. They see a dog turn to look at its opposition and immediately cry foul ... even if all it has done is look. :blink:

Anyway, Frankie won't be doing any of that obviously - well not more than once anyway

 

[Judy]

I agree Ian - I was just trying to make the same point. Also that it's not just pushing or banging or crossing over but turning the head agressively as well i.e trying to bite.